Scott@GMHTP

GM High-Tech Performance magazine is looking for good looking, stock motor Third and Fourth Gen Fbodies for a shootout in Englishtown, NJ's Raceway Park. This closed track event will take place Tuesday, August 1st at Old Bridge, NJ by invitation only. Those invited will be allowed as many passes as time allows while the GMHTP staff snaps photos for use in an upcoming article in the magazine. All cars must comply with Raceway Park's 95db noise restrictions and NHRA safety rules.

Stock longblocks including the cam, heads, internals, and block must all be utilized, however, all bolt-ons (including rocker arms) are acceptible as well as forced induction. Intake manifolds must be of stock style, meaning no carb-style or multiple throttle bodies. Racing transmissions such as TH350s, TH400s, Powerglide, or clutchless manuals are prohibited. Stock or built 4L60E, 700R4, T-56 or T-5 are acceptible so long as they were available from the factory in that model year. Any rear end (10 bolt, 12 bolt, 9-inch, Dana, 8.8 hybrid, etc) is acceptable as is any tire size or compound, so as not to require tubs or minitubs. Stock style suspension must also be utilized, so no ladder bars or 4-links. We would like to keep the entrants fairly streetable and stock appearing, meaning no completely stripped down racecars. To apply email an overall, engine, and interior .jpg to scott.parker@primedia.com along with timeslips, dyno numbers, estimate of total money spent, a list with your build up and NHRA safety equipment, home, work and cell phone numbers. The deadline for applications is June 4, and all invitees will be notified no later than June 18.

TPI-Formula350-

I'd def be interested in going. I have pretty much every bolton, no power adder,stock heads and cam(check sig) I've ran a best of 13.21@104.63 Three years ago and have been looking to get some new times. Let me know what you think!!

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

how would a shootout between 3rd and 4th gens be even remotely fair? only a difference of 85 hp or so between a TPI and a LS1 motor.

TPI-Formula350-

I understand what your saying a full bolton L98 won't stand a chance against a full bolton LS1, but a Full bolton 89 TTA just might. So there is some hope for the thirdgens.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

there's no way a full bolt on TTA would even compare with a full bolt on LS1, there are some running low 10s on stock cam and heads.

StngKlr

Who, what, where and when?

TTA850

I dunno about a bolt on TTA not comparing, my stocker ran 11.99 @ 113 with just a K&N, test/dump pipe, ET Streets, and 22psi racegas tune. Stock turbo, intercooler, injectors, ect. With a small turbo upgrade(PT-51), CAS stock location intercooler, and 50# injectors a friends car went 11.25 @ 121. I see no reason why mid 10's arent possible with a bolt on TTA assuming the right combo and really pushing some boost, after all GN's have been well into the 10's on stock long blocks(around 10.50's I belive). Then there's always a small shot of nitrous if your daring enough

Unfortunatly TTA's dont fit the above discription so looks like thirdgens will get crushed

Steve

brutalform

LOL, we can always beat up on the 4th gens with LT1s.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

3rd gens are dead meat. Not a decent cam in the bunch, no porting allowed (if I'm reading that correctly), forced induction would help but you can't have rebuilt it with forged pistons (if I'm reading that correctly). Heads that are acceptable to NHRA in Stock classes would not be acceptible here.

Most of my setup came from the factory, but not in a production car. Would the HO 350 Camaro conversion kit be "legal" in this "shootout"? If not, why not?

Basically, I'm not seeing it.

Not if the same rules that apply to transmissions apply to engines.

brutalform

No, I believe you read it correctly. Back when I had my 355 in my Formula, I had T/F heads, ZZ-9 cam etc., and it would walk all over a stock, supercharged LT-1. Now, if this were a bolt-on, third gen only affair, then it would be interesting. A supercharged third gen would likely get beat by a stock LS1.

Scott@GMHTP

TTA850: if you are interested in entering please submit an application. Based on the rules I specified for the shootout, your car would technically check out.


five7kid: as stated in the rules, the engine must be completely stock as it came from the factory. Motor conversions are okay so long as that motor was available in that car during that model year, so for example a 305 TPI could convert to a stock 350. Please keep in mind that if the rules were different, you would be competing against cars with LS1, LS2, LS6, LS7 and C5R swaps (all of which came from the factory as well). And yes ported heads are not allowed, as are forged pistons.

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

Scott, I am a fan of GMHTP, and a subscriber as well, but I dont really see the point of this. We all already know what will happen. Why would anyone with a thirdgen sign up just to get wasted by a bunch of 4th gens? Where is the incentive for anyone with a thirdgen and what are you guys trying to prove? This will certainly not be educational, or even entertaining in my opinion. My car would not fit in the rules in any way, but even if it did I would not want to be pitted against an LSX motor'd car, there is just no comparison. Running an LSX car at the strip for fun is one thing, participating in an event that is specifically to pit LS1/LT1/L98 against one another is of little value in my opinion.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

you can't port the heads? whatever your smokin', send some down my way!!! there is no way you can put a stock long block ls1 with boost next to a stock l98 with boost and get anything remotely close to a fair match. the crap hyper pistons put into the stock gen I smallblocks simply won't hold the pressure like an lsx motor will.

this is simply not a good way to prove that stock for stock the lsx motors are superior.

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

I have a better idea, instead of trashing on thirdgens, how about a Thirdgen shootout. Maybe you could take a bunch of clean nicely built thirdgens and run them at the strip. You could interview each owner and do a short writeup on each car. The puropse of the article would be to prove that thirdgens can be a great bang for the buck.

Better yet, I would like to see a 305 vs 350 shootout. Round up all the quick 305 guys and duke it out with some of the 350 guys around here. The title could read "305 vs 350 The Results May Suprise You" I think a grudge match with all the wimpy 350 guys would be a blast! jk.

Just some suggestions.

GTA matt

iTrader: (1)

I'm in. 12's with stock everything.

rocluvr0013

89jyturbo should go... hes still running a stock longblock right?

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

yeah, i like the 305 vs 350 idea....i better get going on my junk!!!

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Now that makes sense. Emissions-legal, daily-driven, 27/20 mpg, raced weekends, mid-13's at sea level, for less than you would pay for a 4th gen that would do the same.

TPI-Formula350-

A stock heads, stock cam, stock internals -no power adder (full bolton)TPI thirdgen shootout would be cool too!!

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I suppose we're sounding like a bunch of sore losers. Or, redheaded stepchildren.

To be honest with you, Scott, I subscribed to GMHTP for a year, let it expire because there just wasn't much there that was much use to a guy with a 20-year old car (that is his "new" hotrod) running a carb. The groundrules tend to support that decision, if you know what I mean. (I especially don't understand how poweradders can be allowed with the other restrictions that are being imposed - which is less "stock": home ported factory heads [or stock replacement heads], or a supercharger?)

Okay, I'll quit now. Guess we'll let GTA matt represent us all.
----------
I've seen arguements about what defines "bolt-on" as well. Most considered aftermarket heads a "bolt-on", but not an aftermarket cam. Go figure. . .

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

GTA matt, only about 25% of the people on this board believe your claims, I am not included in that 25%. I don't think anyone that reads GMHTP will believe them either. The 104mph trap speed is just laughable out of a stock head, stock cam, stock intake L98. It would be interesting to see some dyno numbers for that car. Besides even if you can run those numbers your car is one of one in the world and would not be a typical representation of thirdgens. And back to topic, even though your car may run 12.9 which would be stellar for an L98, you would still get raped by an LS1 car with exhaust and a lid, as would mine I might add.

StngKlr

My motor is stock. Whats up with that? Just let me get some gears and a 150 shot and the title is mine.

Anyways, good luck with a turn out on that deal. Let me know when you guys are in Texas again for some sort of fair shootout. I'l go to that one.

brutalform

Scott, How will the vehicles be teched in, to ensure that they are all within the rules?

brutalform

Also, as 1MeanZ has stated above, an all third gen shootout would be great. I just happen to be one of the people that has had the privelege to attend a GMHTP shootout, and have their car in the mag. I was in an old High Tech Performance issue (before GMHTP). It was the May 1997 issue, and the article was called World War III. It was a 350 Camaro, that ran in the 13.00 range, a supercharged 350 camaro that ran mid to high 11s, and me, with my little 305. I only ran low 14s N/A, and 13.87@105, with a little shot of nitrous. Unfortunately, my fuel pump went south, on that very day, and pretty much stopped me from any ET improvements. (oh well). But back to the point, we had three similar cars, all with different mods, just to see how well they ran, and compared the various levels of mods, and their effectiveness. The third, and fourth gen event in question, is like pairing up two completley different animals, just to have a bloodbath,

TPI-Formula350-

I'm with 1MeanZ you post that your in the "12's with everything stock". Then I read your sig and your not stock,but your boltons wouldn't would not add upto 12's. Maybe we'll both get an invite to this shootout,i'd like to see what we both ET at after going through a tech to make sure we're as stock as claimed.

Blu91Z28

I've trapped as high as 102.8 with stock heads, cam, intake and 3.23's so what's so unbelievable about it? If I had a dollar for every LS1 I've seen running mid-high 13's, I'd have one sitting in my driveway for free.

GTA matt

iTrader: (1)

Scott, I will be sending you an E-mail later today. Is there any other information I should send? The rules seem to fit my car perfectly and I would be more then happy to go up there.

89gta383

iTrader: (5)

Don't hate on his combo because he did something you can't. Try to get there also by crossing your T's and dotting your I's instead of crying about what isn't 'stock' about his combo. Wasted energy on your part.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

guys, please don't forget about track prep, elevation, and weather conditions. MIR is one of the fastest tracks on the east coast. i don't doubt his claims.

Blu91Z28

Exactly, my 102.8 trap was in November. Temps were in the 40's, low humidity and within 100 ft. of sea level. If Car Craft could manage a 14.31 @ 98 with a '91 1LE L98 Z, why can't a bolt-on car trap 104?

Lo-tec

This will be an interesting read when it comes out in the magazine.

I'm curious to know how many 4th gens have signed on for the up-coming slaughter.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I'm sorry, this is just too much of a hot button. Although the predominate 3rd gen transmission, a TH700R-4 wouldn't be acceptable in my car because it's an '82, and the TH700R-4 wasn't available in 1982. And, Crossfire wouldn't be acceptable because it's multiple throttle body. And, carb wouldn't be acceptable because it uses a carb-style manifold.

But...
A NON-GM REAR END IS JUST FINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Either this is an attempt to tilt the playing field, or the rules have been very poorly communicated.

I still don't know if the ZZ4 is unacceptable - my argument would be that it should be acceptable, since the "350 HO Camaro Conversion Kit" was a factory motor conversion - emissions-legal, even. Hmmm, wonder how much uncleaned 113's would hurt me. . .

Never mind, I still have a TH700R-4. . .

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

yeah these rules are very poorly put together and sound like they were put together buy an ls1 owner, someone who probably never owned a thirdgen or if he did, it was 1988 or newer.

82-84 cars only got the carb or crossfire injection.
85-88, the lg4 was still available, so those guys gotta convert to TPI?
88+ was all tbi or tpi stuff, and the tbi stuff SUCKED.

so basically you guys are wanting to see the fuel injected thirdgen guys come out with a power adder, but other wise completely stock? this is ridiculous.

of course, i'm counted out completely. my heads are from a 1991 corvette and have been properly cleaned up. my cam is late 1960's technology, with it's solid lifters...but even with only 5.1L, i'd still take on any ls1 without nitrous or blowers with factory displacement.

GTA matt

iTrader: (1)

I think this is just to show what different bolt ons will gain. Remember, its called a budget shootout. I don't think the object is to see an L98 take on an LS1, its simply to show readers what bolt ons can do.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

i say, if that's the case, then put the thirdgens against the thirdgens, lt1's against lt1's, and ls1's against ls1's. have three classes.

TPI-Formula350-

Thats pretty funny because i'm already there. You can see my times and dyno sheets in some of my old post, alot of the guys on the boards know what my car runs. Anyway I hope to get there so we can see how everyones does, even if the LS1 cars smoke us all. Sure it would be a good time...

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

I'm not hatin because he did something I can't, I am hatin becase he did something that no one else can do, that ranks his claims as unfeasable in my book. So what, someone with a L98 trapped 102 with stock stuff, he is trapping 104! 102 is plausible but 104 is just silly, you have to draw the line somewhere guys. People can dispute me all they want my opinion will not change about his times, or his car. Also I will state again, GTA matts car even as fast as he claims it is will still get raped by an LS1 M6 car with a few bolt ons. So what if his car runs 12s, it will still get smoked so what is all this trying to prove?

Back to topic..

So Scott what are you going to do with the whopping 2 Thridgen entrants? do you have any reply to the comments listed above? I think we would all appreciate some more feed back from you on this topic.

brutalform

Back when I was in HTP magazine, while at the Englishtown shoot, there also were 4, or 5, LT1 supercharged fourth gens, camaro, and birds, and 1 supercharged Saleen Stang. We were all there together, but they were in an article that came out a month or two before my issue did. It was like they had plans for the two articles, at one shoot. Probably to save time, and track rental. Who knows, you might get to run the LS1's like I did with the LT1's, but they might have plans for two seperate articles, in two seperate issues of GMHTP. What I'm saying is, if the LS1's do smoke you, it might not be in print. I could be wrong in this instance, but thats how it was done back in 1997, when Robert Gross was still at the mag, and handled the closed track event. BTW, we were all "invitation only" too.

Blu91Z28

Honestly, it's just nice to get the invite. GMHTP is solely about Late model GM performance vehicles and EFI only. They had a LT1 vs. LS1 shootout a couple years back and several of the cars were in the 13's. A couple L98's running low 13's maybe high 12's would be nice to see. Some bolt-on TTA's would definitely make a third gen statement.

StngKlr

Are you guys ever going to do anything like this? I'm in if so. It dosent get any more "High-Tech" than that.

TTA850

Email sent, my car is very stock like I said in the email but can still put up some decent numbers.

Steve

87TPI350KID

I think mines a perfect canidate

The only thing that may not be ok is my stall converter.

Drac0nic

you people b1tch too much, if you're not afriad of breaking it you could get NASTY on a stock L98 long block using race gas. albeit it's a carb, single turbo 305 dyno results
this is a LG4 which means crap cam, bone stock long block. The dyno sheet shows almost 300 to the wheels, that's LS1 territory and it's not even a 350 or equipped with the "good" cam. With a good TPI setup and engine management, even a stock L98 with an aftermarket intake and boost would be quite nasty on a race gas tune. This is an oppertunity, someone's gotta be the under dog It's a good time for people to step up and show what these cars can do.

Lo-tec

Stock L98 + boost = rebuild

Been there done that (rans 12's briefly)

This whole thing is BS until Scott@GMHTP can fully explain how it works, who's racing who, etc etc etc,

Steven89Iroc

I think this just may have turned into a 'Fourthgen' Budget Stock Motor Shootout...

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

87TPI350KID

They should have thirdgen auto/thirdgen standard/4th gen auto/4th gen standard classes.

Comparing an auto L98 to a 6 speed ls1 is ludacris. I'm not whining their cars are faster, but they do have 20 years of technology and have the availible 6 speed, and they cost about 10x as much as a typical 3rd gen.

TTA850

You cant compare the prices of a 4 year old car vs a 14-21 year old car, you can however look at the prices when they were new. Consider that my 89 GTA original sale price was a little over $24K and my 89 TTA's were around $32K back in 1989, the fact that 15 years went by and the prices more or less stayed the same makes the LS1 cars look pretty good.

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

im tempted to submit my turbo/nitrous injected rs just for ****s and giggles