Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Finalized my combo and will start ordering parts this week Cant wait!

Just to create some talk, what do you think I'll run? What will it dyno?

stock L98 shortblock
pistons are about .023-.024 in the hole, stock 12cc dish L98 pistons

AFR 195 eliminator heads (already ordered) I hope to have them milled to 60cc to keep compression up

gasket will be .028 inch thick leaving me a quench of .052 or so. Not perfect but the best it will get with stock block
Compression will be around 9.6 to 1 based on those specs above

Cam will more than likely be the XE 230/236 hydraulic roller from comp but on a 112 lsa. .544/.555 lift with 1.6 rockers

HSR intake portmatched to heads.

For now i'll reuse my hooker 2055's 1 5/8 shorties and custom 3inch catback. Stock 48mm TB and 24lb injectors for now or i may just upgrade later this winter.
Also will use the 2800 stall till i get the car tuned

Tuned by me.

I'm hoping for 360whp thru the auto, locked converter. Many LT1 cars with stock heads have put down 350whp thru a manual 6. with heads i've seen 375-380whp, some even higher

hoping for high 11's in PERFECT weather...something like 11.xx at 114-115mph
Raceweight should be 3400lbs, thats raceweight with me in it

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Couple of thoughts. I like most of the combination. For 350-360RWHP you will need #30 pound injectors. I'm running 80% duty cycle in that horsepower range with an A4.

Take a hard look at raising your compression one point. You are leaving some power on the table at 9.5:1 and making it harder to reach your goal. Either mill the heads some more or look into a thinner head gasket.

Regarding the throttle body. If you upgrade go to a 58mm. Don't fool around with something smaller for the same money. The idea at WOT is to keep the plenum at 100KPA all the time. Driveability will be just fine.

Regarding the port match. I would worry more about the cross sectional area of the intake manifold that is best for your combination. Most likely it will be less than AFR head opening.

With that cam I would be looking into a larger torque converter. Maybe something around 3600 stall or there abouts.

Most would recommend a 1 3/4" header for a high horsepower motor and higher rpms. But you never know the 1 5/8" could work.

Getting into the 11's will take some doing. Alot will depend on how much your car weighs. If my car was around 3100 pounds I would be about there now.

ross

Do your self a favore order your heads with the 64cc option or try and get them at 60cc from AFR.
For the head gasket I see you want to run the stock short block find a set of the steel shim head gaskets. I am not 100% sure thay will work with alum. heads so double check,but you will want the thinest head gasket you can use.
Isee you are going Inj so the cam looks good.
Buy a set of long tube headers...
MORE stall 3500 RPM

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

yes stall will be upgraded to 3600 down the road once i get the car somewhat tuned.

I also hope to go with longtubes and custom y pipe as well, but like i said, i just want to get it running before i make those changes. I will need to get teh car running well enough to drive to the shop to do the y pipe once i installed the headers. I really dont like the idea of running open long tubes down in pittsburgh

i have heard steel shims or copper shims will not work well because of aluminum heads and they are prone to leaking. the thinnest gasket i could find is .028" and that will work with the aluminum heads.


LT1 guys seem to get into the 11's fairly easily, or atleast have mid low 12's with trap speeds good enough to get 11's but they have small stall or not driving them to 100% potential. i see nothing in a LT1 other than SFI that makes it better than a standard injected small block.

ross

And the logic behind me telling you to have AFR cut them down is so that your intake will fit. And as I was putting down to use the steel shem gasket I was thinking of the aluminum not working with them.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

what difference does it make if AFR cuts it down vs some machine shop?

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

expensive heads on a cheap used shortblock. I wouldn't mill them down which would make the next project with them difficult. Later on you'd have a set of heads which would make pump gas questionable with smaller combustion chambers. For high 11s AFR heads aren't really needed IMO, but since they're ordered work with what you have. 9.5:1 with aluminum heads is like 8.5:1 with iron heads, you really should be going for 11.5:1 with those heads if not slightly higher to get the combo more efficient.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

i know its not the best combination of parts, since i'm working with what i have here. But i think it has some potential. I know Traxion went 11's on stock shortblock with heads/cam.
Maybe i should run a step down smaller cam? maybe install the bigger cam 4 more degrees advanced to build more DCR?

i think 60 cc isnt that small for a future combination. Lt1 guys use 58's and are making 400whp in some setups. i'm sure i can find a piston to give me 10.5-11 to 1 with 60 cc's.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

vortec heads and a good tune will get you 11s, it has been done many times, just you're losing power because of the aluminum heads, but i'm sure the airflow will make up for it. I'm just saying the heads are expensive and milling them is permanent solution to a part time problem. Which is using a stock shortblock and not redoing it for a proper combo.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

well this was the dilema i had. i knew this wasnt gonna be 100% optimal since i have dished pistons and they are .024 in the hole or about that. I already had a HSR intake non vortec so the only head options i had were ported L98 vette heads which would raise compression up based on the 58 cc chamber, or some type of iron head which i didnt want since i want to reduce weight.

I figured since i hope to have a new combo by next winter, i'll throw good heads on the car since i'll reuse them later down the road, and throw a cam in it for fun. i will be dead happy with low 12's if thats all it gets since thats alot faster than the bottom 13's i used to run with the stock L98.

with the heads i figured 60-62 cc is all the farther i'd go to keep it workable for next combo. WHICH should be by next winter i hope so i think i can get by this year with this setup not being optimal right?

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

IMO don't touch the heads until next winter when you build something then. Put them on the car and enjoy the new found HP over what you have now. With compression that low, put a blower on it Hit it with a 150 shot all day, etc etc

ross

If you mill a 72cc head to 60cc the intake will no longer bolt on.
Two fixs are (1) cut the intake so that it
(2) have the heads angle milled then flat milled so that the Intake will fit.
I would and have done the #2 option it cost more money but you can switch intakes is the plus side. And I ts hard to find a machine shop to do this and get it right.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

its a 65 cc head that will be milled to 60, not a 72.

that would be fun but do you really think the motor can handle cam/heads and a 150 shot?? haha i think thats asking for toooo much on this higher mileage low end

ross

I see you will be fine then.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

thats what i'm thinkin. its only .030" off the head so everything should be ok right, as far as intake alignment goes.

i can get 9.9 to 1 compression with the 60 cc head and felpro 1094 gasket. although thin, it has been known to work well even with aluminum heads by several members on here so i will try it. else it will be a .028 inch like originally planned.

And i DO believe i will be able to fine proper pistons for 10.5 to 1 or higher compression with the 60 cc head.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

what about a camshaft swap and use the stock heads, then build a new combo and put the afr's on that...that way you don't risk tearing the heads up when you pop a piston or snap a connecting rod from that worn shortblock...just a thought.

i know of some folks running 11's on stock or midly modified 083's.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

that was another thought. I hope to be building the motor this summer soon after this setup is done. I considered doing the ported stock heads but then i'd go smaller on the cam. should make a hot combo, but i think i'll just throw this combo together and see what happens and hope it holds while i make another bottom end for it. i wont take it over 6000rpms that much. only at the track, and that will be limited

IROC4LIFE

since you pretty much have everything torn down, you could always spend the money your going to pay getting head milling and such, and instead, pull the shortblock out. Order a Summit Engine Kit with TRW Flat Tops (Cheap). Have the machine shop 0 deck the block, clean it, polish the crank, hang the pistons and put it all back togather. (just gotta makesure the piston and ring packages are close to stock weight or it will need a balance ajustment)

Or even easier, 0 deck the block, clean everything, polish crank, reuse it all with some fresh rings and bearings (after a quick cleanup hone on the cylinders), and keep the heads 64cc, will work good.

The funny thing is I put AFR195's on a stock 350short block once also, and without the right compression, it was a DOG, even with a smaller cam and what not, ended up just losing a rod bearing cause of RPM, but it was a dissapointing motor.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I'll have to weigh my options out now. A new shortblock would be awesome but the motor is torn down pretty far now, how will i pull it out? would i have to put the heads back on with a intake to pull it? Its in my garage now and i dont have jacks underneath, i dont know if i'll beable to get at the trans bolts

if i was to buy a fresh rotating assembly, all i would really have to do is install it right? keeping it 350 inches and just order 4 inch pistons and get a hone kit to just clean the stock bores? Would i have to get it bored? Maybe i should order a cheap shortblock. If i dont deck the block that is and order proper pistons i should beable to get my 10.5 to 1 compression easily.

I never put a motor together so i'm not sure how confident i would be in putting it together. it doesnt look that hard as long as i pay attention to clearances right?

bluegrassz

iTrader: (3)

Your combo is close to mine.

I had my afr's milled but I had stock flattops. I used the comp xr283hr with a lsa of 112, but 1.5 rr's. The bottom end is stock except for the cam/timing chain and lifters.

Oh yeah, the heads were suppose to be 67cc from afr, but we took .030 off them and they cc'ed out at 60cc after milling. Afr said it took .006 to get 1cc. We also put a different back cut angle on the valves and worked the chambers and ports. We did have to work the roof of the intake ports to line up after milling the heads, but it worked out great.

We flow tested the heads and the intake before/during/after. So this wasnt just a home port job.

I am running a carb and you EFI. I dont know what the ending results would be.

Check out the rest of my sig for my combo and times.
I should be in the 11's with a carb swap this spring.

IROC4LIFE

Getting the motor out is EASY, just get some washers, short bolts and a good chain. screw the bolts into each corner though the ends of the chain with the washers on the decksurface, use 2 chains, and an engine crane. To get the car up, just jack it on the crossmember for the front stands, and under the diff for the rear stands, do just enuf to get the stands under, when all 4 are under, do one side at a time and keep lifting it up and raising the stands till there maxxed out.

The tranny bolts are EASY, esp with the heads off, pretty much just sit on the engine with a wrench. then wheel under for the bottom 4. Put your floorjack with a brick of wood under the tranny to support it, unbolt the motor mounts and headers, lift it out, no problem.

The thing with building motor's is this, The machine shop is EVERYTHING. putting it togather is just a matter of using some feeler gauges, plastigauge and Tq wrenches. If the machine shop did a good job, then your rolling. The thing is, you would need a dial bore gauge, small hole gauges, some mic's and other special tools to know. So having a good machine shop u can trust is everything.

If you want to change the pistons,rods or crank it needs a balance, it depends on the wear on the block and the piston to wall clearance if it will need to be bored.

With the prices of shortblocks though places like summit and jegs, its not a bad idea. It really comes down to what u have avaible for machine shops, and if you know someone who had work done there.

And really, there is no better time to "cut your teeth" with motors than your first rebuild, Ive helped ppl build there first engine who never even used a TQ wrench before, and following a good manual, keeping things clean, with some paitence, a good motor came out of it. Happy People indeed.

Not to mention, this is the place to get engine building info.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

i have no problem with wrenching.. everything on this car has been done by myself except for the tranny rebuild.

I'm now weighing the option of purchasing a budget 'rebuild' shortblock from blueprint engines just to be safe. Atleast i'll have a fresh lowend.

Then i figure lets go for it and run the motor as is to see what happens. i feel it will hold up since its a good condition motor and has been running so good with the mileage it has. And even looking at motor, it looks good to me.


I got a question tho, can you mill a engine deck while its already assembled? Like if i was to purchase a assembled shortblock that was not zero decked, could i take it to a shop and get it decked?

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

if they take it back apart

IROC4LIFE

I think your over thinking this whole deal. There are lots of places that will seel ya a roller block 355 with flattops, some nice forged I beam rods and a 0 deck for not alot of money. Then just set them pretty little AFR's on there with all your other parts and put the L98 in the shed for a rainy day or swap meet.

Honestly, its the best idea. I know in gaskets/fluids/and misc stuff alone, to put a motor togather and blow it up, its a good 2-300bux.

Also remember, just cause some shop put it togather, doesn't mean its a sure deal. Not to cuss anyone (I was an Mechanic for many years) sometimes ppl working at these shops just don't care, esp with how wages are in the automotive buisness. Never think anything you can do with a little effort is lesser than what some shop does or has done.
----------
This just came to mind but don't you live close to 87_TA?. I know he was saying he has a good buddy who runs a top notch machine shop, could prob set you up with a nice little shortblock, heck I think he might even still have that 355 he was trying to sell.

Just a thought.

IROC

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

yeah he does live somewhat near me, maybe i'll try contacting him.

its just that if i was to do this myself i would need a engine lift and engine stand to work on it. extra cost of tools adds up. lol

It just would be so much easier to cam this L98 and throw the heads on and see what happens

327???

I think you should strongly think about going with less cam if you do end up with 9.6:1 compression.

I personally like the idea of a new shortblock(bought or assembled), you really should shoot for ~11:1 compression with those heads AND good quench. Good quench is essential IMO.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

i'll have the quench and i'll have more like 9.9 to 1 compression when its all said and done. i know thats abit less than ideal, but how many COUNTLESS crate engines are 9.5 to 1 with aluminum and still making 400hp? there are alot. I think i'll be fine if i go with my current setup. I'm still considering a shortblock tho

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

i am running that same cam in a stock LT1.
heads are mildly ported by myself, and using a thin gasket compression is around 11:1 or a little less.
i am running a single plane converted to efi with 1200cfm tb.
th400, 9" w/4.56's, 28" tire.

car is 3,000 to 3,100lbs, and its gone 7.13@98 with a 1.55 60' in the 1/8 n/a. its got a nitrous converter in it so its weak outta the gate on motor. i have not gotten the car to a 1/4 track yet.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

i've seen many Lt1's with stock or mild ported stock heads put down very good numbers with this cam and similar cams. That is where i want to be, around 340-350whp with my AFR heads which outflow stock LT1 castings. Even with lack of compression, i think the airflow should make up for it.

I'm now afraid to run that cam and heads on my stock shortblock because everyone here is making it seem like it will run like crap on 9.6-9.9 to 1 compression. i know alot of ZZ4 motors are 9.6 to 1 compression and with cam swaps have put down some good numbers as well, even with cams like the LT4 hotcam and those L98 aluminum heads which are the worst flowing aluminum heads out there.

i wanted to do this on a budget so i can have alot of fun with the car while I build a new powerplant for 09. i really didnt want to rebuild this motor or sub in a shortblock just yet for only 1 year of run time

327???

As long as you know it's not optimal and wont perform as well as with higher compression and better quench, I wouldn't be too afraid of slapping it all on the stock shortblock and playing with it for a summer. It'll run 12's like that, but I think 11's would be tough.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Lets look at this

with the planned 60 cc heads (milled) and 4.100 bore, .015 thick head gasket (felpro 1094) with .024-.025 in the hole pistons, i will have 9.9 to 1 compression.

with the 230/236 cam installed straight up, factory ground 4 degrees advance, i'll have a working dynamic compression ratio of about 7.65... alittle low but not bad for pump gas. If i install the cam with 4 more degrees advance, i should have a DCR of 7.9 to 1. Thats much better and i think that will work good.

I know i'm not gonna get the most out of this combo, but i should be very happy with low 12's. But my car is very efficient.

I made 254whp lean and 315 lb ft of torque at the wheels last dyno day. Stock L98 with full bolt ons. Ran the 12.95 at 103.8 in perfect weather. That combo needed more gear or stall and would have ran 12.8's at 104 i'm sure. possibly even more ET depending on the stall. 1.70 60 on the 2800, so a 3200-3400 may reach 1.65's. still had the 36mm sway bar on. This was in perfect weather, DA of 188 and cold temps. on average good weather days, the DA was 1500-1700 and i ran 13.2's at 100-101.

So i would hope this cam/heads combo will boost me to atleast 320whp. Even tho that is pretty pathetic for this combo. i figure 20whp in the heads alone on a stock cammed motor, and with the cam i could see another 40-50whp there. I mean i made near 260whp on stock crummy heads, and stock L98 weak cam. I'm sure this combo will give me near 70whp overall. if it doesnt then well i guess i can say the weak compression ratio caused 10% or so powerloss

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

350 is 4.000 bore, not 4.100 bore

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

thats the head gasket size for the calculations

ross

Put it together it will work. Hell I did a stock junk yard short block with a set of AFR 195s hyd roller cam performer rpm intake with a 650 on top car went 11.80s this was with dish pistons and a 3.89 gear damn thing sounded like a dump truck motor with dual 3in pipes.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I'm now alittle worried about the main/rod/cam bearings. Even tho the motor is in solid shape, would the bearings be worn past service life? Should i replace them? If i do that can i just swap in new bearings and bolt it back together?

ross

Did it have good oil pressure,or make any noise, or have sludge build up. If no to all put it together and have fun untill you can build another motor or short block.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

it had very high oil pressure and no sludge anywhere in this motor...its almost like its brand new lol

maybe i should just go for it and see what happens.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

justin, do it, don't be skeared.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

think i should go for huh? if it ran strong before, no signs of wear, i should be good to go for awhile right? remember this is probly adding 100hp to this motor.

IROC4LIFE

Well if its that nice, then forsure.

Sorry if all the jawin got ya thinkin this was a bad idea. It isn't, if the motor is solid, just watch the cam and get er done. I guess im just used to being so damn competative (damn street races) that everytime I have the car down, its gonna be ALOT faster next time.

Anyhoo like Ross said, its amazing what some junkyard motors will do with a good tune. Just makesure everything is REALLY clean, and don't use any kinda abrasive to cleanup the decks of the block. Scrapers only.

Other than that, have some fun.

IROC

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

everyone in here has had good advice... if i had just a few more bucks laying around and some tools i'd probly do a budget shortblock. i know its a crapshoot to cam a highmileage motor.

what i'm gonna do is take the stock cam out since i havent yet, and look at the cam bearings. If they look decent then i'll go for it. if not, i'll take it all out and put in new bearings

old z mzn

iTrader: (1)

use a 3.800 stoke crank and you will have it very close to zero deck. thats what i did

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

the only 3.8 stroke i know of is from GM and its 1100 bucks...no thank you

bluegrassz

iTrader: (3)

I did a compression test on my L98 before I took it out. Every cylinder was close and in good shape.

I used the GM .028 gasket with the stock bore. I ended up with 10.3 to 1 compression. This is with the stock flattop piston. With your factory dish, I would think you would be close to 9.8 to 1.

You could alway check a main cap and rod bearing.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

thats what i should have done before taking it all apart. I never did any leakdown tests or compression tests. i assumed it was decent since it ran so good.

I gotta order parts and some tools wednesday and hopefully i'll have them by upcoming weekend so i can start doing some of this. I cant get the balancer off currently so i'll get a puller for that.

Should i upgrade my balancer/damper? Or is the stock one good enough?

old z mzn

iTrader: (1)

got mine from scat for $239

IROC4LIFE

Stock Balancer is just fine.

Old z mzn, hes trying to use the stock shortblock AS IS, when he builds a motor, im sure he will do a 383.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

i've read the stock balancer is ony good to 4500-5000rpms, so i think to be safe i'll get a decent one.

ross

Use the stock balancer you will be fine. I would paint a line on it so that I could inspect it and make sure it has not sliped so that you dont have false timing readings.

IROC4LIFE

Ive personally spun lots of stock 350 balancers to 5000-7000rpm. My circle track buddies who don't spend alot of money on motor's have wound stock balancers to 7600+. Never seen one come apart. Funny Enuf this guy near me ran his BBC with a brand new Romac SFI pc, and it flew apart casuing 6000bux in Damage.

Like Ross said, just mark a line across it, if you see things start shifting, then change it out, otherwise, its a total waste of money.

P.S S.F.I stands for "Some ****ing Idiot" so just cause it says SFI on it, doesn't mean its Not going to fail. Also remember that alot of the GM stuff was designed pretty good, and alot of the aftermarket stuff is a knock off of the GM stuff made in some China plant.