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Organized Drag Racing and AutocrossDrag racing and autocross discussions and questions. Techniques, tips, suggestions, and "what will I run?" questions.
So I was thinking about doing something Ive always wanted to do next year and thats doing one of these open road races. The http://bborr.com is what Im thinking about doing.
So my question is this. Running my 87 GTA convertible in their starter class of 112mph and under. As you can see on the site its 59 miles each way. Just wondering if some of you racers can give me any suggestions of what trouble points on these cars I should be looking for. Obviously I know fluid leaks, shocks/struts and brakes but what other areas should I be focusing in on between now and then? I was thinking about maybe adding external coolers for both engine and trans since its an auto. The engine is a standard replacement engine from ATK engines they supply engines to Advance, Autozone etc. It is a 350 tpi not the 305 tpi which I decided not to put back in the car, I just sat it aside in case I wanted to make car all original later. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Not looking to be world-class but would like to have a little fun driving faster than the speed limit safely and without the car falling apart.
Seems like a plan. I approve. I second the tires thing. If you enjoy the race and want to do more of it you might want to invest in some tires and rims that you only race on, I would suggest some cheap wide gummy sticky z rated tires on some light steel rims like Cragar steelies or one of the similar brands. You can get them in 17"s which will allow you the biggest selection of tires and bigger brake option later on. If you want to go 15's then Basset Racing wheels are the way to go.
i mean afterwards..repair..not changing it from stock..
Let me get this right, so are you saying these things will be damaged and/or worn out and will need attending to cause car will be run stock in the event? Consequently, your suggestion will be changing to these things so it will not be as troublesome in succeding events?
Let me get this right, so are you saying these things will be damaged and/or worn out and will need attending to cause car will be run stock in the event? Consequently, your suggestion will be changing to these things so it will not be as troublesome in succeeding events?
I am saying you will need a new set of tires afterwards as they will be worn out from a stock car on a road coarse as you will push it hard for better times. etc. you will not be doing 30 around turns etc.
You may give a lot of wear to your brakes as you strive for the apex of a turn. the straights will be fine but the turns will be hard on the car. I have a good friend with classic ferraris and some new ones two. He has gone to a track day and said it is not worth the wear. if you are just doing a autocross on a large parking lot that would be different.
And good shocks& struts go a long way the yellow koni's are your best bang, but a really good alternative is a KYB .
Even if the tires & brakes are not absolutely gone, you'll be looking to replace them shortly. That is of course, if you run it hard.
Look, none of us here are PRO RACE CAR DRIVER'S, I know you're not Mario Andretti. ... but racing ain't cheap, and, a general rule is: IF YOU'RE SCARED OF BREAKING IT, YOU SHOULDN'T BE RACING IT.
If you can't afford to put good struts & shocks , good tires and new brakes on it..... WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO IF YOU CRASH IT?
Sorry, I'm not angry. .. just trying to drive the point
Good Luck & GOD Speed
And good shocks& struts go a long way the yellow koni's are your best bang, but a really good alternative is a KYB .
Even if the tires & brakes are not absolutely gone, you'll be looking to replace them shortly. That is of course, if you run it hard.
Look, none of us here are PRO RACE CAR DRIVER'S, I know you're not Mario Andretti. ... but racing ain't cheap, and, a general rule is: IF YOU'RE SCARED OF BREAKING IT, YOU SHOULDN'T BE RACING IT.
If you can't afford to put good struts & shocks , good tires and new brakes on it..... WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO IF YOU CRASH IT?
Sorry, I'm not angry. .. just trying to drive the point
Good Luck & GOD Speed
Bingo...
The most expensive Ferrari in the world (#18, which sold in 2011 for $16.39million) goes off track in 2009.At the time, #18 belongs to Jon Shirley, second president of Microsoft and #9 was being driven by David Love (his shoe got caught on the accelerator and he coudn't lift-off to brake.
Bad day.
No offense taken by me of any of the comments made. I want to know what to expect. I don't mind modding the car to make it perform reasonably and safely but I have seen guys running cars older than mine, there are even minivans running this race, lol, mind you all of these are staying in the lower end of the speed classes which I plan to do. Remember I plan to run in the sub 125 mph grouping (as I recall off the top of my head). I actually think the subclass I want is like 112 mph max. I wouldn't want to run this car any faster than that anyway without some suspension and engine upgrades. This is just plain old selfish fun not competition. If I do this and like it then Ill consider doing some mods but it will likely be to the 91 GTA not this one.
I don't want to offend ANYONE but I have researched these types of events pretty thoroughly and have a long roadracing background in GT1 and SPO cars.
I would suggest that you read the rules posted on the website very carefully. These events are usually quite a bit more about maintaining a (high) steady speed and are run like Time to Distance road rallies. Unless you are in a HIGHLY prepared race car entered into the unlimited class you will generally be running in a category that has a "tech speed" limit. In other words, depending on what safety modifications you have made you will need to stay under a specified average speed for your run. Tires are very important because continuous running over 100 mph generates a lot more heat than running down to the corner store so proper construction, rating, and inflation is critically important. Most of the available rallies of this type have open sweeping corners that wont tax the cornering ability of a well maintained car so it won't take much wear there and on most layouts the brakes will hardly be asked to work at all. None that I have seen is anything like a circuit road race - it's more like "I wonder what it would be like to travel this freeway at twice the normal speed limit". Most have one or two slightly more twisty sections (but still not tight by any means) to test your ability to hold a steady speed and guess at whether you need to speed up or slow down to try to hit your average speed overall.
I've been a long time high performance driving instructor, a racing organization president, a race steward, and a racer. In the last several years convertibles are treated like lepers at high performance events. Considering what I have seen from insurance underwriters I would be truly shocked if you could participate in an event like this in a convertible without a full cage.
I don't want to offend ANYONE but I have researched these types of events pretty thoroughly and have a long roadracing background in GT1 and SPO cars.
I would suggest that you read the rules posted on the website very carefully. These events are usually quite a bit more about maintaining a (high) steady speed and are run like Time to Distance road rallies. Unless you are in a HIGHLY prepared race car entered into the unlimited class you will generally be running in a category that has a "tech speed" limit. In other words, depending on what safety modifications you have made you will need to stay under a specified average speed for your run. Tires are very important because continuous running over 100 mph generates a lot more heat than running down to the corner store so proper construction, rating, and inflation is critically important. Most of the available rallies of this type have open sweeping corners that wont tax the cornering ability of a well maintained car so it won't take much wear there and on most layouts the brakes will hardly be asked to work at all. None that I have seen is anything like a circuit road race - it's more like "I wonder what it would be like to travel this freeway at twice the normal speed limit". Most have one or two slightly more twisty sections (but still not tight by any means) to test your ability to hold a steady speed and guess at whether you need to speed up or slow down to try to hit your average speed overall.
I've been a long time high performance driving instructor, a racing organization president, a race steward, and a racer. In the last several years convertibles are treated like lepers at high performance events. Considering what I have seen from insurance underwriters I would be truly shocked if you could participate in an event like this in a convertible without a full cage.
Happy to answer whatever questions I can.
Very informative! I am near Mid-ohio and I do think the turns they have are pretty tight from what I have seen so I am going by that experience and those of friends but you sound more on the money
Here is a 7 min clip of a guy doing it in a stock c6 vette. I know this is an entirely different beast than my GTA but you can see that like was previously mentioned the turns seem to be gradual sweeps.
I still think all the mods mentioned are worthwhile though. I think with the lower speeds that I am shooting at the stresses will be less nevertheless safety first!
As far as the rules on convertibles go, I will look up that section and post it on here. If I remember correctly if your car is a convertible and doesnt come from the factory with rollover protection then you must add a roll bar. I forget the specs of that rollbar though.
Yeah, a Z06 has Z rated tires from the factory (149+ mph rating), has a bad *** independent front and rear suspension, 13" rotors &GOOD brakes. .... I'd say that is, a whole lot different than a GTA.
We're not trying to talk you outta doing the event, we're simply trying to make you aware of what you should be doing to get ready for it. And so that you can safely enjoy the experience.
Get a hold of the rules and tech guidelines for the event. ..
Make calls and ask questions, the old mentality of "it's not in the rules, so I can do it " , is seriously frowned upon in roadrace circles.
Again, best of luck
As I mentioned before - completely different animal from an actual road course race.
IMissMy86TA - Yes, Mid Ohio is one of the premier road courses in the country and a notorious mix of fast and slow corners with small elevation changes that make it hard to set up for and challenging to race on. Again, so we are clear, nothing like one of the open road races that are gaining some popularity primarily in Texas and Nevada. Open road races are held on public roads that are closed to traffic for the duration of the event and are designed mostly for flat out running with minimal cornering load and braking.
One of the reasons that one of the most famous purpose built road courses in history, the Nurburgring in Germany, is used for very few racing events is because of it's length. For acceptable safety in the modern age tracks are required to have sufficient corner stations staffed with marshals and emergency responders such that NO SECTION of the track is not visible and each station is within sight of the stations on either side of them. Open road courses are much, much longer than purpose built racing circuits. Putting high load corners and hard braking zones on an open road race would greatly increase the chance for people to loose control of the car and potentially being injured, killed, or sitting in the middle of the road when the next car comes along at over 100 mph with no flag personnel to signal them to the danger, or respond quickly in an emergency situation.
A racing friend of mine held the Silver State RR unlimited record for quite a while at well over 200 mph. At those speeds just mechanical failure can have cataclysmic results. If you search youtube you will find several great examples of what happens to cars in open road events when they leave the pavement at extremely high speeds.
That being said, I think an event like this could be fun with the right mindset. Pick a class that falls well within the performance parameters of your vehicle, prepare to a high standard, build more safety than you think you need and do it for FUN.
You hit nail on the head go above and beyond to be safe and have fun.
These were some of the tech aspects I was reading when I decided to post a thread to see if anyone else has done an ORR.
I think all of this stuff is very reasonable and not hard to do in preparation. With the goal being to have fun why skimp on prep and have an issue on the road even if I am running only 124mph (SR2) or 112mph (SR1). I guess for me after reading thru all the regulations I just wanted to know had anyone with a 3rd gen F-body run an ORR. If so I want to know their experience and fbody specific issues to be aware of.
Wasn't even thinking about seat belt or fire extinguisher . Yeah, new seat belts, new tires, good shocks /struts, good breaks & roll bar . ..
For me a "head sock" & helmet, not cheap, but do able.
I got a set of BFG Z rated tires off of eBay (3-4 years old, but new) for less than half what they would have cost me in a store.
255/35/19's KDW T/A's (front )& 295/35/19's KDW T/A's ( rear)..... $329 f (2/set) & $436 r (2/set)
Like 3-4 business days
Just to be sure we are on the same page - SR2 has a "Tech Speed" of 124 which means it is the maximum you can go legally on any part of the course. The average speed you will be trying to hit is 90 mph over the length of the course. If you have to slow down below 90 to negotiate any corners you can then do over 90 mph to "make up time" and get your average back to 90 mph. At any point if you exceed 124 mph you are disqualified. These classes can be very competitive because my company Explorer could run a consistent 90 all day and wouldn't have to slow down for any of the corners I saw in the video. The winner is generally going to be mere fractions from a perfect 90 mph average without going over.
That would of course be completely dependent on the course. If the course doesn't have tight turns, it's very possible to maintain a much higher average speed.
I can say that I'm very comfortable taking turns faster than most of the people I know, so I might sustain an average of 110 & never go over 124.
Just sayin
Not commenting on whatever your perception of either your ability or your cars. You misunderstood -
The number in parenthesis AFTER the tech speed in the rules is the average speed you are trying to attain over the length of the course. If you average 110 mph you will be 20 mph over the target speed for the run. Sounds like they don't bar you from the event until you disregard the Tech Speed allowable for your car so if you are just running for fun and don't care where you finish it might be fine. Might clarify that before you ran one though.
Old instructors saying: "Comfortable and capable are two VASTLY different and completely unrelated things"
Lol, just speaking in general, not telling anyone to do anything. And, yes. ... your old instructor is correct!
To many people get themselves in trouble, by driving beyond their capacity &/or the vehicles capabilities.
None the less, the rules make for an informative and interesting read.
My wife and I have done some TSD rallies here in the Atlanta area and they are really fun. I think someone mentioned in a previous post that the BBORR is basically a high speed road rally (with some changes of course). That is why it caught my attention.
Evilcat, your comments on tech speed and class speed is one of the reasons for my posting this thread. I think I can get some useful info from this discussion from folks that may have run basically stock fbodys in an ORR. This will help me in picking the (85), (90), (95), (100), (105), or (110) class to run in. Im gonna guess that if our cars are up to stock spec meaning all the original worn out suspension parts have been replaced with at the least new stock spec parts that our cars should run in the (110) class just fine. So that means average 110 mph and if you calculate that you have deviated down from that average over the course of the run then you can drive as fast as 124 mph to get your average speed back up as close to 110 mph as you can without going over 110 mph. I believe that is the correct reading of this. Anyone see this any different?
I have to laugh at myself for being so stupid but I just remebered driving my 1988 GTA from Darlington, SC to Atlanta back in 1990 really fast.
I got on I-20 outside of Darlington, SC and there were 2 cars running between 100 and 120 mph as I entered the freeway. They were not racing but were intent on getting to Atlanta fast. I saw that and jumped right in line. First and last time I drove that fast on a public highway.
But I do remember that car running very smoothly. It never ran hot, never got unsettled on some of the bumpy stretches. 1 of the 2 cars eventually exited the freeway for gas I bet and eventually I ran out gas and had to exit. After refueling I continued on by myself running as fast as 115 for some long stretches.
Ill never forget my parents faces when I walked in the door, they wondered how the heck I got home so fast. That was fun but incredibly stupid..... like I said before I would never do that again.
I said all that to say a goal to average 115 mph in our cars in stock configuration should be safe and fun. Does anyone feel any differently?
You're not alone, I've done that & then some. ... but the race organizers & rules are what they deem safe. I, as you. ..& so many others, have grown up since & realize just how stupid we were & how lucky we are to still be alive, lol.
You're not alone, I've done that & then some. ... but the race organizers & rules are what they deem safe. I, as you. ..& so many others, have grown up since & realize just how stupid we were & how lucky we are to still be alive, lol.
Amen brother. I got in so many high speed races when I was young and dumb I am very very lucky to be here.
Was going to post about the Tech Speed classes but ton of posts beat me to it.
These events can be fun to run, but are more like a high speed Car Cruise than a HPDE session on a Road Course.
Your biggest wear items are going to be fluids, wheel bearings, and rubber. Its really like a big highway cruise where they suddenly doubled the speed limits. With technical speed limits of 112 and 124mph, and target average speeds around 30mph slower than that, its not really a challenging race. I mean if you've done 75-80mph on the highway you know its not exactly rough on the car. Whats an additional 20mph in the end. And the race duration really isn't long enough to wear out most tires.
Some of these events are REALLY sticklers about things you normally wouldn't think of. Such as Valve stems being made of metal instead of rubber like most are. They might also verify that your tires Load Rating matches your vehicle. If the Load Rating of the tire isn't sufficient you won't pass tech in most cases.
Lots of little things like that will trip you up.
Originally Posted by Slowridr
I have to laugh at myself for being so stupid but I just remebered driving my 1988 GTA from Darlington, SC to Atlanta back in 1990 really fast.
I got on I-20 outside of Darlington, SC and there were 2 cars running between 100 and 120 mph as I entered the freeway. They were not racing but were intent on getting to Atlanta fast. I saw that and jumped right in line. First and last time I drove that fast on a public highway.
But I do remember that car running very smoothly. It never ran hot, never got unsettled on some of the bumpy stretches. 1 of the 2 cars eventually exited the freeway for gas I bet and eventually I ran out gas and had to exit. After refueling I continued on by myself running as fast as 115 for some long stretches.
Ill never forget my parents faces when I walked in the door, they wondered how the heck I got home so fast. That was fun but incredibly stupid..... like I said before I would never do that again.
I said all that to say a goal to average 115 mph in our cars in stock configuration should be safe and fun. Does anyone feel any differently?
See, I'm very comfortable at speed. I love going to Road America and doing HPDE's there, though I need to expand to Autobahn, Gingerman, and Blackhawk Farms as they are the closest other tracks. If they allowed it, I would be comfortable doing 120mph all day long in both my GTA and my Focus ST.
Once on the way back from a Cordova Dragstrip T&T day I was enjoying the gentle sweepers of the backroads on the way to I-80. I looked down and realized what I thought was 70-80mph on a 55 was actually more like 100. I asked my passenger how fast they were going and he too thought we were only doing about 70-80. The G-loads were barely felt, the road was smooth, and wind noise and engine noise were minimal. I wasn't even in any boost. I backed off and set the Cruise control at 65mph because after a day of 1/4 mile passes 65mph felt pedestrian.
Its the same way when I do cool down laps at Road America. Here I am doing about 100-110mph on the front straight of RA, getting past by cars doing 140-170, and it feels like I was driving around 40mph. You get used to the relative speed, and mostly open track and it just doesn't FEEL all that fast.
I love HPDEs. I can't wait for my 2016 Focus RS to arrive. Then my hardest decision will be do I race the Focus, or the GTA. First world problems!
Last edited by Thirdgen89GTA; 12-16-2015 at 09:15 AM.
11-02-2015, 08:15 AM
as long as you know what to expect. Have fun with it and be safe. 
