hey guys. i am so close to getting my car. it is here on island but just not ready for me to pick it up. im calling them everyday to see if its ready yet. i am going crazy waiting. you can all bet i will let ya know when its here.

 

Awesome.

 

Did you find out if MWR has a auto salvage yard at K-Bay?

 

oh yea i almost forgot. we dont have one. all the cars i saw sitting were in storage.

 

Hey Rainman -- I'll bet you're getting claustrophobic being confined to K-Bay, heh. It's been a while since I've driven over the mountain, and it's an easy H-3 trip from Pearl Harbor, close to Fort Shafter.

So if you'd like to get a couple hours of Third-Gen time Sat a.m. at the Army salvage yard I could pick you up at the K-Bay guard shack, about 8:30, the bring you back later on.

 

Hey Randy, what's the status? Maybe some of us could get somethin' rollin' this weekend or next. I'm planning to have my firebird roamin' the streets before this weekend. (Seriously, this time.)

We should all try to get a full cruise (or close) goin' before the end of the year. Maybe at the next D/S, or at the Toys For Tots muscle car thing. Just throwin' out suggestions. Heck, Anthony said his place for pizza and beer, right?

Also, sent you a PM, Randy.

Scott

 

lol! You remember that huh Scott. Just so everyone knows, I changed my days off. I'm off on Sunday/Monday now I'm one step closer to Saturday/Sunday woohoo!

 

hey guys, its with mixed emotions i post this message. my car is here. it got here this afternoon but had to be towed here.

for some damn reason it wont start. i have fuel air and spark but its just not starting. a few of my ideas are mabey a bad vats key. it the chip went bad would it do anything?? it wants to start so bad but just wont.another idea is mabey the stereo has some sort of security system and it wont start with out the face plate. im drawing a blank here.

any suggestions are helpful.

 

Fuel, air and spark make ignition -- Since the shipping companies make owners about drain the tank, I'm guessing fuel might not be making it to the intake, did you bring a 5-gal gas can to put some juice in the tank? Are the plugs wet, did you verify plugs are sparking?

 

we can smell gas from the throttle body so we are pretty sure its getting to the injectors. we called it quits for the night and we think it is the ignition module. i went to checkers to check it but found out they cant. i have to go to napa and check it there. im hopeing its that or mabey for some reason it wont start without the faceplate from the cd player in place.

i am confident ill have it running in a few days. we should all get together for a cruise or go to the track for some runs.

 

Hopefully you'll get her running this week.

I'd be down this weekend to cruise or make some runs. Off to go work on my firebird....

Scott

 

i replaced the ignition module and still nothing.

after some more troubleshooting we think its the fuel pump since we have no pressure in the fuel rails. we used a test light and the pump was getting power to prime but when we cranked it got nothing.

something wierd that im going to post about is that it would run for about a second if i tried to start it with the 5th and 6th holes connected in the truble code thing(cant think of the name right now)

 

First thing I'd do is unplug/clean/reinsert all sensor and electrical connectors and check the fuses to ensure good electrical contact. Often, this will eliminate a fuel system problem.

Pump not pumping? Possible that the fuel pump relay is defective or has a dirty connector. Do you hear the whine of the pump when the key is first turned on? If not, first suspect is the relay and scub the connector with contact cleaner, it may solve the problem. If not, swap the relay. The relay energizes when the key is turned on for about four seconds to build fuel pressure. After the engine is running the fuel pump gets it's 12 volts from the oil pressure sender switch. Cranking the engine will build enough oil pressure to close the switch and turn on the fuel pump, usually after about three or four revolutions. So, a few other things to check in there.

Fuel pump test at the schrader valve -- should generate 260 KPa (37 PSI) at idle with the vacuum line connected to the regulator, or 300KPa (44 PSI) with the engine stopped or the vacuum line disconnected. There is a +/- 20KPa (3 PSI) allowable range for those specifications.

It's tough when a car has been sitting for weeks, all kinds of gremlins creep in.

If it's the fuel pump, I have a couple extras, you're welcome to one. Do you have an access panel, or do you plan to (ugh) drop the tank.

 

Here's some more, from smart guys like Willie...

Fuel Pump Relay, Oil Pressure Switch, Fuel System Operation

This weekend I purchased a fuel pump relay from Napa. I went to go put it on and found that it did not fit with the middle relay. I then asked them if they knew which was the fuel pump relay. To my surprise, they didn't know. From an earlier post, info was given to me that it was the middle relay. But the relay I purchased would not fit. It did however plug into either of the other two relays on both sides of the middle one. I did not leave it on as the Napa rep said I would cause a short in my electrical system. I then went to AutoZone and went through the same scenario with them with the same result..... No one in my area seems to know why the fuel pump relay that they sell will fit the center relay. It seems to me that one of the other two might be the relay, but I am unsure of which and do not wish to burn up my electrical system.

I have the GM service manuals for my 87 IROC, and it doesn't give the correct location of the fuel pump relay in its diagrams. I suggest you turn your key on and feel which relay is being activated when you turn on the key. If you don't crank the engine, the relay will make an audible click, which can be felt after the key has been turned on for two seconds. It's the middle one. Also should be different (square instead of rounded) from the other two.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you are having problems with power to your fuel pump the following may be of some help. The fuel pump relay is only used during the starting of the motor. The relay is turn on for a few seconds. After the motor is started the relay is no longer used. The oil pressure switch supplies power to the fuel pump while the motor is running. So if your motor starts, then dies, check the oil pressure switch. If your motor never starts, its the relay.

It is on the driver’s firewall. It will be one of two relays that has five wires going into it. Colors are as follows: large brown w/ white stripe, black w/ white stripe, a green w/white stripe, and one large and one small orange wire. That is how it is on my 87Z w/ 305 TPI.

Relay on the left is FP, middle is MAF, right is MAF burnoff.

On your MAF car the MAF Burn-Off & fuel pump relays are the same GM part number 25037045, $14.55 Retail. Swap em and see. Or you can probe the relay drive signal to the fuel pump for +12Vdc. You might also replace the fuel filter [Here's a tip: besides all the hidden locations of fuses and relays, there's another way that may be simpler for you: under the car next time look up in the well over the rear axle. You will see a weatherpack connector with 4 wires to it. Disconnect this and it de-energizes the fuel pump].

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Help! Can I tell if it’s the fuel pump or relay?? -- A few weeks ago, I was checking fuel pressure on my 88 IROC with 5.7 TPI and noticed the fuel pressure is varying 5-10 psi with the pulsing of the injectors. There are also a lot of bubbles in the fuel when you bleed it at the regulator--a constant stream. This weekend as I was driving around, a couple of times it just acted like it was dying. I pushed the accelerator and nothing was happening .. started slowing down. And then it would JERK really hard and resume speed. Then, late yesterday afternoon, about to take off from a stoplight the light turned green, I gave it some gas and it just died. I tried to crank it back up and nothing. I let it sit for a minute, turned the key back on and couldn't hear the fuel pump. Then a few seconds later, I tried to crank it and it worked.

It then ran fine all the way back home. I'm pretty sure its either the fuel pump or the relay going bad. I'm also going to check the wiring today to make sure I don't have a loose connection somewhere. Is there a way I can check the fuel pump or relay to tell which is the problem? Or somewhere else I should look? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by Willie on May 31, 1999 at 09:33:40:

The power circuit for the fuel pump is through the relay AND the low oil pressure/fuel pump switch. In other words, this is a parallel circuit. The ECM controls the relay and energizes it when the ignition is on. The oil pressure/fuel pump switch closes when oil pressure is at a minimum of 4 psi. If the relay does not work, the only symptom you will have is hard starting, e.g. the oil pressure is VERY low.

Directly from my shop manual:
"When the ignition is first turned on without the engine running, the ECM will turn the fuel pump relay on for two seconds. This builds up the fuel pressure quickly. If the engine is not started within two seconds, the ECM will shut the fuel pump off and wait
until the engine starts. As soon as the engine is cranked, the ECM will turn the relay on and run the fuel pump."

"As a backup system to the fuel pump relay, the fuel pump can also be turned on by the oil pressure switch. The oil pressure switch is a normally open switch, which closes when oil pressure reaches about 4 psi. If the fuel pump relay fails, the oil pressure switch will close and run the fuel pump."

"An inoperative fuel pump relay can result in long cranking times, particularly if the engine is cold."

"An inoperative fuel pump would cause a no start condition. A fuel pump which does not provide enough pressure can result in poor performance."

I have had several fuel pumps go out and every time, the symptom is different. Based on what you've said, I would have to say your fuel pump is on its way out.
Willie


What if fuel pump runs all the time?

FUEL PUMP ELECTRICAL CIRCUIT

When the ignition is first turned on without the engine running, the ECM will turn the fuel pump relay on for two seconds. This builds up the fuel pressure quickly. If the engine is not started within two seconds, the ECM will shut the fuel pump off and wait
until the engine starts. As soon as the engine is cranked, the ECM will turn the relay on and run the fuel pump.

As a backup system to the fuel pump relay, the fuel pump can also be turned on by the oil pressure switch. The oil pressure switch is a normally open switch which closes when oil
pressure reaches about 4 psi. If the fuel pump relay fails, the oil pressure switch will close and run the fuel pump.

So what I've been saying all along is that if this oil pressure switch is stuck closed, it will allow current to flow to the fuel pump all the time. What's probably happening in your case is once the engine warms up, it sticks. Then when you turn it off, the switch
does not open. This would cause current to be supplied to the fuel pump until it unsticks.

Willie

------------------------------------------
Oil pressure sending unit
my oil pressure gauge is acting funny and not reading right. A few people have told me that it could be the sending unit. What's the sending unit? where is it? How much to replace?

more than likely the sending unit is the answer. Back in the mid-eighties or so there was a service bulletin out about defective sending units. It is on the back of the intake manifold near the distributor. On the drivers side.

On my '86 IROC Tpi there were 2 mounted on a little 't' adapter. One is the gauge pressure sending unit (the large one) and one is a switch for the fuel pump. It would shut off the fuel pump if the engine loses oil pressure. Also if your fuel pump relay goes out when you crank the engine and the oil pressure comes up the fuel pump will start working. This works like a fuel pump relay back-up circuit. It is cheap and easy to replace the gauge sending unit. Mine used to drop oil pressure badly when the engine was hot. It really used to concern me when my oil pressure would go to almost zero on the gauge. Chevy oil pressure gauges are 'famous' for not working correctly. Change the sending unit.

Hope this gets your car running....

 

How did it get shipped here? Did the people on the dock have access to drive it? Did you record the mileage before it was shipped? It really seems odd that it comes off the boat broken ... ya know?

 

i did record the mileage and they only put 2 miles on it.

for Ed. i dont hear anything when i turn the key but it is gettin power when i do. i dont have a fuel pressure guage but we pushed the button all the way down and got nothing. that means no pressure right? i dont have an access panel yet but my buddy eccy who is helpin me is goin to help cut one with me. if i could have one of your pumps that would really help a lot. i dont really want to throw away 100$ and have it not be something else.

 

Hah, that's eight 1320's in my book... when I shipped my red 92 to Arizona for my son, I watched shipping guys fooling around with nice cars out in the waiting lot, revving the engines, etc. Hard to prove they screwed up your car. Do you know if they pushed it off the boat, or was it driven.

If you're going to cut an access panel, another decision has to be made, and that is whether or not you can remove the pump and complete fuel piping system after disconnection at the threaded connectors in front of the tank. If so, fine, just change the pump and reinstall. If you can't remove/replace the fuel pump assy, then you'll have to cut the four hard lines near the top of the tank, then have AN fittings welded to the tank side of the feed/return pipes, then unions and regular AN fittings on the other two pipes. The remaining two pipes can be connected with rubber fuel lines. The system is 40-50 PSI, so a fuel leak back there over a hot exhaust system could be catastrophic.

I've attached a photo to help...

Sure you can have one my two extra pumps. Now that I have an access panel in my '87 I don't care if the pump fails 'cause it will only take 30 minutes to change it. If I had to drop the tank [especially if the exhaust is welded] I wouldn't install a used pump -- only a NEW GM product. My 92 had a new GM pump installed in Las Vegas after if failed in Death Valley [yeah, no joke] and it came with a lifetime labor/parts warranty from GM -- of course that only cost $1,400. But what ya gonna do away from home, sigh.

So your fuel pump gets power, but wont run [meaning you don't hear any buzzing when the ignition key is turned].

If so, likely the pump is dead .. From the manual -- "When the ignition is first turned on without the engine running, the ECM will turn the fuel pump relay on for two seconds. This builds up the fuel pressure quickly. If the engine is not started within two seconds, the ECM will shut the fuel pump off and wait until the engine starts. As soon as the engine is cranked, the ECM will turn the relay on and run the fuel pump."

"As a backup system to the fuel pump relay, the fuel pump can also be turned on by the oil pressure switch. The oil pressure switch is a normally open switch, which closes when oil pressure reaches about 4 psi. If the fuel pump relay fails, the oil pressure switch will close and run the fuel pump."

"An inoperative fuel pump relay can result in long cranking times, particularly if the engine is cold."

"An inoperative fuel pump would cause a no start condition. A fuel pump which does not provide enough pressure can result in poor performance."

 

I was considering a cut-out for fuel pump access, that's a great idea, considering that some cars come with them, stock. Maybe stick the filter near the tank, too, so it can be changed whilst in the car.

 

IT'S ALIVE

After much cussing and screaming i finally switched out the fuel pump( I cant thank you enough Ed.) i still need to give it a good once over with some soap and water and a vaccum so thats the next step. i look forward to meeting more of you guys in the future.

 

Glad the pump is working and hope it continues to do so for 10 more years. If not, well, now you're an expert in pulling the tank out, heh. I'll bet the hardest part was getting the neck back in properly, everything else should have been pretty easy if the car is on a lift. Y'all come back anytime, we still have to watch "Vanishing Point"!

 

Awesome. Did you get to take her out at all yet? Man, such garbage weather....

 

Yeah, the filter is in a really bad location, mainly 'cause it's so low that fuel siphons out the line when it's disconnected. Problem with moving it higher is that it's so huge, there's really no place to put it without making the cut-out overly large. Guess I can live with it where it is, but having the fuel pump die on some deserted highway 1,500 miles from home is another thing altogether.