calebzman

iTrader: (3)

I went to Big3Racing in Brunswick, OH to do some tuning and pulls on their Mustang dyno. The good thing was that my tune was spot on for fuel and timing. The not so good was that I wasn't able to squeak out any more power with additional timing and power fell off after 4200rpm. They printed out graphs and data points, but since the graphs were kind of hard to read, I entered the data in excel and made my own.





The dyno results show that my tiny turbo compressor is definitely undersized for the engine. Also, with the huge T6 turbine, the boost can't be increased more than 11-12psi. However, 450ft-lbs is still pretty fun on the street, so I might stick with this setup for now.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Those are very respectable numbers, regardless. If power is falling after 4200-RPM though, then you should definitely consider a smaller throttle body. To be honest, I would throw the stocker back on so you could build a little more boost pressure. If you'd rather keep the 58mm throttle body though, definitely consider getting a much bigger camshaft. Either way, nice setup....

project89

iTrader: (1)

search on ebay for 6v92 or tv7512, or i can just pm u a link to a guy who sells them on ebay , he starts his auctions off at 80 bucks and the last five have all sold for 80 bucks,well except for mine somone else decided they wanted the one i was bidding on and it cost me 112 bucks.

the tv7512 is a t6 flanged 76mm turbo, should practically be a drop in replacement for the one u have now

calebzman

iTrader: (3)

Thanks! I don't understand using a smaller throttle body though. Wouldn't the cfm output from the turbo be the same for either tb?

Thanks for the suggestion. I would love upgrading to a larger turbo, especially if it didn't require extensive modifications to the header, crossover, and cold side tubing. Any guess what I might be able to make with one of those turbos?

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

It's not the boost pressure that we see in the intake manifold that really means anything, as that is only a reading from the intake's perspective of just how hard the turbo is working up until that point. You wanted to see higher boost pressure, and we can raise or lower that reading simply by either restricting or unrestricting the intake path, but remember it is only a reading from the intake's perspective. What matters is the actual flow and velocity of the incoming air....

No extensive modifications needed. Just get a T6 to T4 flange adapter, and T4 turbo....

calebzman

iTrader: (3)

That would make it easier, but I still might have to modify the downpipe and cold side tubing, depending on where the turbo sits. Will I be better off with a T4 style turbo instead of a T6 like I have now?

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

If there is no work done to the Tuned Port Injection setup, with the incoming air being restricted, I would definitely consider a T4 turbo in it's place. Tim was running a 62-1, 1.0 exhaust when he was featured in that article of his, and he made 570-RWHP @ 13-psi with a pretty similar setup, your really not that far from him with the right turbo. By the way, is this a manual? What gears do you have out back, 3.70's? I would definitely recommend 2.73's with a manual and turbo charger, as turbo's spool much much faster with an increased load behind them...;

Tim's setup

355 w/8.5:1 compression
Ported L98 Heads
ZZ9 Camshaft (212/226 .483/.580 @ 112)
1.6 Rockers
58mm TB

http://www.gmhightechperformance.com...350/index.html

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

First you say to put a smaller throttle body if power is falling off past 4200rpm, then you say that it might not make a difference but will show more boost- the TPI is probably a bigger restriction after the TB, I bet he sees the same boost with either TB, the smaller one will just kill a few hp. Not sure why you would go smaller if power if falling off at 4200rpm

that adapter will not work, the bolt heads will get in the way. Won't be necessary to mount the turbo that project suggests

calebzman- what T6 is that? it just says T6 on your cardomain, without a model or size listed... It doesn't really look like you're running out of compressor, it's just spooling slow... what size is the turbine side? what size is that downpipe? I would first try opening up the exhaust after the turbine to see if that allows you to make more boost/faster (take the hood off, take the downpipe off, weld a 3.5 or 4" elbow to a flange pointing straight up and take it for a ride).

After that, smaller turbine A/r, bigger compressor, better hot side layout...

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

I explained why I said that in the post below that one. It was sarcasm in a sense, as a tighter restriction will give him a higher boost reading because that is what he wanted to see, but it won't really do anything other than maybe stress the turbo and heat up the charge....

Exactly, so starting from the combustion chamber, the intake valve in the ProComp 190cc is 2.02", not sure if he ported the lower manifold, but the stock runners are 1.470" in diameter, the stock plenum throttle body orifice is about 4" total (actually its less than 4" total when you consider the stock edges that are there), and he's running a 58mm (1050 cfm), with charge pipes that appear to be 3" in diameter. That big of a throttle body will only slow down velocity because it will act like a speed bump because of that transition from big, to small, when a smaller throttle body would be more linear....

How would it kill horsepower? In blow-thru applications, you want no bigger than a 650-cfm carburetor, and fuel injection is really no exception. Above 4200-RPM the stock TPI is finished, so a 58mm throttle body would be defeating the purpose....

Just use allen head bolts, same way we run a spreadbore to squarebore carb flange, and if you mean the outer holes, just bolt them from the underside of the adapter....

calebzman

iTrader: (3)

It's a really old turbo. I took measurements and it has T6 1.05AR 70mm inducer turbine, 59mm inducer/86mm exducer compressor. The model number is TEO644 and it's the MURPHY 408096-0002 on that page. The turbine has a 4" outlet, but I have a 4" to 3" reducer, then 3" downpipe and out the back. I was only running the 3" pipe below the engine compartment before I added the rest of the exhaust. Spool time or total boost didn't change after I added the cat-back exhaust though. I like your 4" out through the hood idea. Sounds like fun.

I don't want to increase boost just to see a higher number. I want to make more power, but I just thought it was odd that the turbo won't push more air even with the wastegate blocked. But that might be because of what 83 Crossfire TA mentioned about the turbine size.

Also, the lower tpi manifold hasn't been touched. I only ported the plenum and added the larger throttle body. The charge pipes are 2-1/2".

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Correct, that is why you want actual cfm and velocity, and not just boost pressure, because all pressure really does is heat up the charge. Any restriction will raise boost, but the byproduct is heat, and I thought you wanted to just see higher than 12-psi. You want a careful balance of all of your parts, collectively. A stock TPI setup does not need a 58mm throttle body in a naturally aspirated setup, let alone a boosted one. If it were me, I'd go with a smaller throttle body to run with a turbo on the street, but that is just me....

It's a combination of a lot of things, including the gearing. Turbo's like load, and the way to spin a turbine with a larger exhaust wheel is by getting as much air into the chamber as possible, but you of course are limited with stock TPI runners, which is why you need a smaller wheel on the exhaust side. Higher gears (lower numerically) out back would help, but I would just go with a better turbo, to be honest....

2 1/2 inches? How big is your intercooler, and what is the actual diameter in and out....?

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

.... and if I had you car, and wanted to run that turbo with your current setup, I would install 2.73's out back, 3" intercooler w/3" charge pipes and larger runners. In my opinion, your boost pressure is lost the moment it exits your current charge pipes, and then whatever is left of that pressure makes its way down stock TPI runners. So between not being able to spin the turbine through the exhaust valves because of lack of air getting through those runners, as well as the restrictive 2 1/2" charge pipes, the turbo is lucky it is even moving.

project89

iTrader: (1)

i agree u need 3 inch charge pipes
but that small 60mm compressor is still going to hurt u

the tv7512 uses a 5 inch downpipe but u can shrink it to 3.5 inch without issues
the tv7512 is good for 8-900 hp in stock form and can be upgraded cheaply upto a 91 mm compressor wheel

freaky

sounds to me like you have a boost leak somewhere . do a boost leak test the tester is easu to make out of pvc pipe an an air compresser i can give you more detailed instructions on making one if you'd like

Shadow Z

iTrader: (2)

I'd be pretty happy with those numbers, regardless of where it drops off. 350 HP and 450 FT-LBs would be awfully fun with a 6 speed. I've got about 100 less RWHP and around 150 less RWTQ with the Mustang, and it's still a lot of fun with the T56.

Drac0nic

Even for an "old tech" turbo I wouldn't think it would be done at 400-450 at the fly wheel with it being T6 and a 60mm like that. It may be time to find another turbine housing as mentioned though. Have you checked your AITs yet? The other thing is have you checked for hot side leaks or cold side leaks? Both of which could plausibly cause lost boost. What about the transmission its self? Is it healthy and is the converter doing what it should?

ED:

Besides that the engine looks as if it has the typical "TPI curve." How worked over is the intake?

freaky

check ot this link it will xplain boost leak testing an has a video :

http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q/m...-DIY-check.htm

daverr

iTrader: (1)

swap to 2.73 and it would make the car slower ,spool longer, and lose 37% torque to the rear wheels..
on my turbo street car i run 3.73 and have no problems spooling . Contrary to popular belief gearing does not create load.

My advise to op is to call up turbonetics or precision turbo and get a proper turbo recommendation.

BANDITSBC

i have 2.73's in mine and i'm happy with them! i don't have experience with other gears and turbo. but the 3.73's in my 84 ta made first gear worthless!!! now i can actual get some distance in first gear and some time under boost.

that being said i was thinking of 3.23's for a little better launch but i think i'll i'll stick with the 2.73's

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Bingo! I remember a few years back my cousin was experimenting with an LC2 backed by a T-5, and 3.42 gears out back, and he had to rev the snot out of it just to get it to spool. Swapping to 2.73's immediately took care of that problem. Mind you, a larger engine will of course help w/spool, but if the OP plans on keeping that turbo, the stock runners and those charge pipes, I would definitely recommend better gears out back....

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Good job on the tune. Someone mentioned the curves are flywheel HP, but I am guessing that they are rwhp. You didn't happen to log the IAT? My guess is the IATs went through the roof after 4200 rpm because you ran out of compressor. That old compressor housing and wheel isn't great for making HP.
The TV7512 should wake it up. The only problem is that it will have a larger compressor A/R and you might have to make some mods. The turbine has a tighter flange to housing center so you might have to space it away from the valve cover.

calebzman

iTrader: (3)

I tested the entire cold side with compressed air from the turbo to the throttle body. I had a few small leaks that I plugged. I also recently removed the hot side manifolds/crossover and found a pretty large crack in the drivers side. I welded it shut and painted all the tubing with VHT paint.

The IATs are logged every time and on the dyno, they were a little higher than normal without the air from moving down the road at 80+mph. For the dyno run in the first post, the IATs started at 103˚F, dipped to 98˚F to 5000rpm, then climbed to 110˚F by the end.

The transmission is a T56, so no converter to slip. The clutch holds well.

The intake is stock except for the 58mm throttle body and porting to the plenum.

The T56 has a 2.66 first gear which is lower than most other transmissions. I have 3.70 now, but I did try 3.27 before. I didn't like it. It felt slower and I had to slip first gear a little more to get started. I couldn't imagine going to 2.73 unless I swapped to a TH400. Also, since I can make full boost in first gear with the 3.70, the turbo should be seeing plenty of load.

Yes, they are rwhp. See above for IATs.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

If you have a '94 up T56 it has a 2.66 first gear ratio, the 93's have 3.36 (or 2.97 G92 option). But it doesn't really matter though, as most of the turbo buick guys that I know run a 2.74 first gear ratio in their 200R4's, or even switching to Turbo 400's which have a 2.48 first gear ratio (with stall of course), and none of them would go beyond 3.42's out back because they know the byproduct, with almost all of them swapping them out for something lower (numerically). You may think you see full boost in first gear when you look at the gauge, or feel it "should be" at full boost during first gear, but it completely defeats the purpose when your blowing through first gear anyway while losing the rate of acceleration, which is not only the benefactor of load + turbo charging, but is also extremely critical to ET....

freaky

one more thing to think about a mustang dyno gives a lower reading . now you need quarter mile times to really see where your at .

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

When you are ready for more hp, just change the intake manifold to a high flow TPI or a short runner intake like HSR. You'll make peak closer to 5000-5500 depending on intake and by that point, you will be up 50-100 hp over TPI. Thats a heck of alot more power under the curve and that car will fly.

The cam and heads are good to 5200-5500 rpm peak power so dont handicap it with the stock TPI. I wouldnt change anything else at this time until you try a new intake.

After that, i'd prefer to see a T4 turbo in the 70-76mm range as it will help spool sooner but still not be a restriction and the larger compressor will pass more air, ultimately making more power down the road.

Also could try leaning it out a bit in the 2800-3400 rpm range to help spool. its only getting a few psi by that point so you can run closer to mid 12's to 1 like n/a until you get up over 5-7psi and then gradually work your way into 11.8-12.0 to 1. It should be ok at that level on good gas and conservative timing.

calebzman

iTrader: (3)

You're right for track cars, but I haven't been to one yet (might try it this summer though). On the street, the higher numerical gears are more enjoyable. I don't shift out of first gear until 45mph at WOT, so I wouldn't consider that gear completely useless.

I was very close to buying an aftermarket tpi base and runners and doing some porting, but spent my funds elsewhere. Now, after going to the dyno and reading the advice from everyone here, I guess I should've followed through with that. At least I'll have a nice baseline to improve on.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

With that turbo lol? It most certainly IS completely useless. Your the one asking why the turbo isn't going any higher than 12-psi, and everyone here is telling you why. You have the wrong turbo for your application and setup if you refuse to change charge pipes and gears, so either swap turbo's to work with your current setup, or build around your current turbo by letting it breath and going with a taller gear. That is how it works my friend. It's like somebody saying that they just installed a cam that kicks in at 3500-RPM and peaks above 6000-RPM and they're wondering why the engine is a complete dog only to find out they are still running the stock stall converter and refuse to change it.

[/done]

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I dont know if that charge pipe is that small. I'm up around 350whp per bank on my 401 and I only use 2.5" pipes on the turbo oulets into a single 3" to the motor. I believe it has alot more in it as some guys are up over 900-1000hp with single 3" feed pipe. Those were 60mm turbos at the time which fit the setup fairly well.

Eventually I plan to cut the intercooler for a 3.5" charge pipe and go to a larger TB but for what I have now, its working well.

calebzman

iTrader: (3)

I'm sorry if it sounded like I was unwilling to change. If anything, I like trying new things and this place is where I have gotten most of my ideas. I even did try different gears, but I didn't like how the car responded. I'm hesitant to replace the intercooler, just because of how well it works. Even the guys at the dyno were impressed with how cool the intake air was during a run. I already have plans to upgrade the stock tpi with an aftermarket base and runners, which should flow much better. If that still doesn't give me the results I want, then I'll have no problem switching to a turbo that will perform with my combo.

Also, I am following your build because I think it's a very cool project. My hope is that if I study enough from what other people do that I can avoid making my own mistakes. Unfortunately, that's not always the case.

That's good to know. I'll try changing some other things first before upgrading to 3" charge pipes and intercooler.

Drac0nic

My personal opinion is you don't KNOW this and it's an assumption. That is what you have instrumentation for, is so that you do know before you make changes. Hook a boost gauge up at the turbo and see what you're making boost wise. You may find out it's a lot more than you're thinking it is. Intercoolers have to be efficient in both pressure drop and thermally. There is a very good chance you will be surprised. As I said the RPM of roll off is a pretty typical "knee" for a 350 TPI though. Any porting on the TPI at all? If so how heavy. Just because you improve the TPI doesn't mean you have to spend a ton of money to get noticable results. No it wouldn't be as good as going to an HSR, mini ram or a Stealth Ram probably but if it's not ported you could get noticable gains for very little $ invested.

ED:not only that but more N/A HP means quicker spooling probably and more exhaust gas to spin your turbine. In this case that is probably a good thing.

freaky

i'm still betting on boost leak , build a tester an see .tell me i'm wrong .lol
i had a 50 trim an only seen 5 lbs. cause of a leak
......help me here orr 89 you gotta know what i'm taliking about .

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

What size wastegate and what springs are in the gate? You controlling boost with a manual controller? A sign the turbo is too small is when you increase boost and dont gain any power. If you cant get over a certain boost level, then it does sound like it may be a leak somewhere and its bleeding off. Look at your curve too, boost falls off after peak and then rises again. Is it lifting the manifold/runners and leaking out? BOV not closing? Not saying there is one but just seems odd you cant get over 12 psi.
I got 6-7 psi springs in the gates on my car and can get to 18psi easily with a controller. no controller I see 8.5 since my gates arent in the best position. Not apples to apples but still should have more boost out of that setup.

ZZ3Astro

I wouldn't waste a lot of sleep time over dyno numbers anyway. Get it to a track and see how the car does in the real world. People laughed at my 'only' 270 rwhp number but then I went out and ran consistent 7.9's on regular tires (with a couple of 7.8x thrown in).

The load produced by that type of dyno is different than the load you car creates and will directly affect what the turbo is doing.

calebzman

iTrader: (3)

Thanks for the suggestion. I have an extra boost gauge so I'll be able to see what it's making right at the turbo.

I have pressure tested the entire charge tubing from turbo to throttle body. Just to eliminate the possibility that I missed something, I'm going to fab a pipe that goes from the turbo straight to the throttle body. This will take all the tubing, intercooler, and bov out of the equation.

The wastegate is a 46mm with an 8lb spring. I also run a manual boost controller, but right now it essentially just blocks the pressure signal and keeps the wastegate closed. Without the mbc, boost stays right at 8-9psi.

You're right. I'm not too hung up on the numbers. My goal is to try to extend the power curve past 4200rpm. Hopefully some of the tests I do will uncover what is going on.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

1- I doubt that the 2.5" charge tubing is hurting you. If you think it is mount a boost gauge at the turbo like it has been suggested, if you see within a couple of PSI of what you see at the manifold that's fine.
2- there is no magic about sticking low gears in a turbo car and running fast. Yes, it does help on a dyno, but not at the track. On a dyno you're typically looking at rpm vs hp, so if you stick a set of 2.73's in it and try to dyno it you'll have longer to spool before you get to the higher rpms so you'll see full boost sooner. At the track that is not how it works, having longer to spool just means that you're accelerating slower. It also means that you need a more conservative tune to prevent detonation and other problems since if you spool sooner you raise cylinder pressure sooner... for the most part gearing a turbo car for best acceleration is similar to gearing most other cars, you need gears that will put you at the top of your power band as you cross the line, so you spend as much time pulling in your power band as possible.
3- the TPI will eventually be a problem, but I don't believe it is yet. HP is roughly proportionate to rpm*airflow*VE or roughly proportionate to torque*ve. I'd bet that if you grabbed the values in your graphs, multiplied them by about 1.2 (the outside amount you're probably loosing through the drivertrain) and then converted those numbers to flow numbers and divided by a density ratio (your pressure ratio and losses there, you could approximate) that you never make it close to the least flowing piece in your inlet. Running some quick back of the napkin numbers, worst case, that works out to at least 525hp on the mustang dyno before the TPI is a restriction at 10psi boost.

That all said + the funny boost curve, my first guess is an exhaust restriction. if you want to get numbers to confirm run a pressure port before and after the turbine, and If you're seeing any significant pressure after the turbine your exhaust is too restrictive (which I'm betting will be the case) a if you're seeing much more than about 1.5-2x the boost pressure before the turbine and the pressure after the turbine is low then the turbine side of the turbo is too small (which I doubt is the case, if anything I'm betting that turbine is on the big side).

Once you've eliminated that problem you may find that your compressor side is a bit small, but most 60mm turbos should be able to move >600hp worth of air (maybe around 480hp on the mustang dyno, maybe a little bit less on the TPI power band) so I doubt that you're having a problem there yet. Of course, 600hp at the crank with a TPI type power curve will quickly find what else is weak in the rest of your drivetrain.

calebzman

iTrader: (3)

I did some testing over the weekend by installing another boost gauge right at the turbo compressor. It turns out I'm only seeing a 1-2psi boost reduction between the turbo and manifold.

I'll try unbolting the downpipe and catback next to see if I have an exhaust restriction. It shouldn't be too hard to fab a short 4" 90⁰ pipe off the turbine.

Drac0nic

Yeah not an intake restriction. You can also get a pressure gauge and run a stub of tubing a foot or two off from the DP then connect a few feet of rubber hose to get a pressure reading.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Yep, that's not an unreasonable loss across an intercooler, so I would guess that the 2.5" isn't hurting you.

calebzman

iTrader: (3)

I have another update, now with track results! I went to Dragway 42 for their opening season test & tune Friday night. This was first time ever racing, so the results could probably be better with a driver mod. I was on street tires, so I burned threw 1st gear pretty bad, and second gear wasn't much better. My best time was 13.1728 @ 111.8mph & 2.1836 60'. Here's a video one of the races:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cfgxWluxV8

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

So that looks like you're using about 400hp at the crank, if you're spinning and getting crappy launches then you probably have more available. That's a low 12/high 11 if you got what you're making down to the ground. Not sure I would worry about what the dyno says (my brother's car has run high 10's and only dynoed something like 329hp, does that mean it doesn't make any power? I would argue that there was something wrong with the dyno numbers)

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Get some slicks on it and run bottom 12's... chances are it may trap higher with more traction if you burned 1-2 gears.

ZZ3Astro

I agree.. that MPH supports a 12.0 ET. The 60 foot should be 1.6-1.7 which would put him at 12.6. Low 12's for sure! But with the heads and cam you have, you really should be move down the track faster. Something is holding you back. What was your 1/8 mile mph? I run 87-88 mph on a stock 5.7 at 12 psi.

calebzman

iTrader: (3)

For the 1/8th, I ran 8.74 @ 83. Without traction I had a pretty hard time off the line. The best run was when I revved to 2k rpm, quickly released the clutch while leaving on yellow (previously was going on green lol). But even then I could only use 1/2-3/4 throttle in first gear, so I was shifting out of first too fast. I think once I just used to how my car wants to go down the track, I might be able to dial in some better times.

calebzman

iTrader: (3)

This weekend I also scored a First Fuel Injection tpi intake off craigslist. I have been back and forth for months on whether I wanted to put more money into the car, but after a night of racing I had the motivation I needed. It came with everything except the First's round throttle body, but it does have an adapter to mount the stock style 58mm twin bore throttle body. Unfortunately that would push the TB forward almost 2", so I think I'm going to sell the Holley TB and purchase the First TB. I already have the fuel lines coming into the back of the rails, so I will just need to buy an external fuel regulator. Here's a picture of the beast:

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

That should open things up abit

ZZ3Astro

Can't wait to see how it does with that! This is about the only upgrade path I see on my car, should I ever get tired of the stock intake. Craigslist!!! That was a rare find on craigs!

1rolmos

Updates ???

calebzman

iTrader: (3)

Not much has changed unfortunately. I’ve been busy with other things, but hopefully with winter coming I’ll have more time to spend on the car. I plan to install the First intake in the next couple months. I just bought an Aeromotive FPR to go with the new intake.

In the spring I’m going to buy some slicks and head back to the track. With some much needed traction and some more power from the intake, I hope to shave off at least a second from my previous times. My goal is to get in the 11’s.

vwdave

Listen to this guy.

mackjar66

iTrader: (9)

Out of curiosity how much did your tune cost u?