Power Adders Getting a Supercharger or Turbocharger? Thinking about using Nitrous? All forced induction and N2O topics discussed here.

Turbo with MAF TPI??

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old May 8, 2002 | 07:30 PM
  #1  
86TpiTransAm's Avatar
Thread Starter
Supreme Member
 
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,536
Likes: 0
From: Springfield, MO, USA
Car: 1986 Trans Am, 1991 Firebird
Engine: 355 TPI, 3.1L V6
Transmission: 700R4 in both
Turbo with MAF TPI??

Can I run a turbo on my TPI with MAF? If so, how??
Reply
Old May 8, 2002 | 07:32 PM
  #2  
B4Ctom1's Avatar
TGO Supporter
Veteran: Air Force
20 Year Member
 
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,991
Likes: 1
From: Cheyenne, Wyoming
Car: 1992 B4C 1LE
Engine: Proaction 412, Accel singleplane
Transmission: built 700R4 w/custom converter
Axle/Gears: stock w/later 4th gen torsen pos
route the air into the MAF, then to the turbo, and then to the engine. or just build it to blow through the MAF because the sensor rate for the stock MAF gets exceeded pretty quick any ways and it will still work like normal.
Reply
Old May 8, 2002 | 08:50 PM
  #3  
CrazyHawaiian's Avatar
Supreme Member
 
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 5,675
Likes: 3
From: Changing Tires
Car: too many ...
I sudgest you talk with the guys @ Precision Turbo & Engine (219-996-7832). They sell aftermarket ECU's that will interface with the TPI EFI on our cars (direct plug and pray). I believe their ECU will also control the MAS. You'll prolly have to upgrade to a 76mm or even 80mm MAS.
Reply
Old May 8, 2002 | 10:00 PM
  #4  
Guido's Avatar
Supreme Member
 
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 1,827
Likes: 1
From: Indianapolis, IN
Car: 2000 Trans Am
Engine: LS1
Transmission: T56
Originally posted by CrazyHawaiian
You'll prolly have to upgrade to a 76mm or even 80mm MAS.
WTF?

Dude, next time research your answers before you give bogus answers. There is only one MAF for TPI, always has only been one MAF for TPI and probably always WILL be one MAF for TPI. There is no upgrading. And even if you could, then you have to overcome the limits in the ECM. It only reads to a certain point then it wont register more air.

Reply
Old May 8, 2002 | 10:16 PM
  #5  
B4Ctom1's Avatar
TGO Supporter
Veteran: Air Force
20 Year Member
 
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,991
Likes: 1
From: Cheyenne, Wyoming
Car: 1992 B4C 1LE
Engine: Proaction 412, Accel singleplane
Transmission: built 700R4 w/custom converter
Axle/Gears: stock w/later 4th gen torsen pos
sounds like ford stuff.
Reply
Old May 8, 2002 | 11:52 PM
  #6  
CrazyHawaiian's Avatar
Supreme Member
 
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 5,675
Likes: 3
From: Changing Tires
Car: too many ...
ok well it was my understanding that with this aftermarket ECU --> the FAST system from Precision Turbo & Engine would control the MAS so it would no longer interface with the stock ECM. I also think it allows you to upgrade to a bigger MAF. But then again I haven't verified this ... just stuff I picked up from reading about aftermarket ECM solutions for turbo applications ... sorry for trying to help out.
Reply
Old May 9, 2002 | 12:43 AM
  #7  
Guido's Avatar
Supreme Member
 
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 1,827
Likes: 1
From: Indianapolis, IN
Car: 2000 Trans Am
Engine: LS1
Transmission: T56
No as far as I know the only one precision sells is the Speed Pro / FAST and I have it. If they sell something else, it is only useable for Fords or Buicks.
Reply
Old May 9, 2002 | 12:48 AM
  #8  
89ProchargedROC's Avatar
Supreme Member
 
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 1,711
Likes: 0
From: chi-town
FAST/Speedpro has

ABSOLUTELY NO INPUT FOR A MASS AIRFLOW SENSOR

you either go speed density or alpha-n
Reply
Old May 9, 2002 | 02:43 AM
  #9  
CrazyHawaiian's Avatar
Supreme Member
 
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 5,675
Likes: 3
From: Changing Tires
Car: too many ...
alright sorry
Reply
Old May 9, 2002 | 12:48 PM
  #10  
ZaphodB's Avatar
Member
 
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 297
Likes: 0
From: Uppsala, Sweden
Car: Camaro IROC-Z '89
Engine: 350 TPI /w Procharger P1SC
Transmission: TH700R4 with Transgo shiftkit
Axle/Gears: 2.77 Borg Warner
Originally posted by Guido


WTF?

Dude, next time research your answers before you give bogus answers. There is only one MAF for TPI, always has only been one MAF for TPI and probably always WILL be one MAF for TPI. There is no upgrading. And even if you could, then you have to overcome the limits in the ECM. It only reads to a certain point then it wont register more air.

Wrong. There is one MAF that is compatible with the standard TPI MAF - The Wells SU-145. Better airflow and same characteristics, but uses a honeycomb matrix instead of the hot-wire technology.....
Reply
Old May 9, 2002 | 08:25 PM
  #11  
fly89gta's Avatar
Supreme Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 4,335
Likes: 4
From: Mays Landing NJ
Car: 2018 Camaro SS
Engine: LT1 w/Paxton 1500SL
Originally posted by ZaphodB


Wrong. There is one MAF that is compatible with the standard TPI MAF - The Wells SU-145. Better airflow and same characteristics, but uses a honeycomb matrix instead of the hot-wire technology.....
but still doesn't overcome the limits of the ECM which i think the point guido was trying to make..
Reply
Old May 9, 2002 | 09:52 PM
  #12  
Guido's Avatar
Supreme Member
 
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 1,827
Likes: 1
From: Indianapolis, IN
Car: 2000 Trans Am
Engine: LS1
Transmission: T56
Thanks fly89.

Reply
Old May 10, 2002 | 08:34 PM
  #13  
B4Ctom1's Avatar
TGO Supporter
Veteran: Air Force
20 Year Member
 
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,991
Likes: 1
From: Cheyenne, Wyoming
Car: 1992 B4C 1LE
Engine: Proaction 412, Accel singleplane
Transmission: built 700R4 w/custom converter
Axle/Gears: stock w/later 4th gen torsen pos
there are some dudes (although a little impatient and cranky) over on the chip burning board (here at thirdgen) that have some pretty good ideas on how to overcome both the flow limitations but also the data limitations of our MAF's. most of it has to do with changing to a later GM computer and harness that has the ability to sense airflow above part throttle (big amounts of air).
Reply
Old May 10, 2002 | 09:00 PM
  #14  
86TpiTransAm's Avatar
Thread Starter
Supreme Member
 
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,536
Likes: 0
From: Springfield, MO, USA
Car: 1986 Trans Am, 1991 Firebird
Engine: 355 TPI, 3.1L V6
Transmission: 700R4 in both
Yes, the 255 gm/sec limitation in the computer is being worked on so it won't be a limitation any longer but they've been working on that for .... ever.

What exactly is alpha-n?
Reply
Old May 10, 2002 | 09:13 PM
  #15  
B4Ctom1's Avatar
TGO Supporter
Veteran: Air Force
20 Year Member
 
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,991
Likes: 1
From: Cheyenne, Wyoming
Car: 1992 B4C 1LE
Engine: Proaction 412, Accel singleplane
Transmission: built 700R4 w/custom converter
Axle/Gears: stock w/later 4th gen torsen pos
Originally posted by 86TpiTransAm


What exactly is alpha-n?
Basically figuring there are three main types of EFI metering; speed density (MAP), mass air (MAF), and Alpha-N (basic). It is EFI that is as close to mechanical as it can be. where load is not merely calculated but pre-figured or pre determined and fuel is delivered based on RPM vs. throttle angle with an O2 sometimes being called upon to smooth out the A/F ratio. It is often used in racing and in very radical motors where a vacuum signal is out of the question. the old analog holley projection is a form of alpha-N, and accel, speedpro, and a few other manufacturers offer the alpha-N option at the click of a mouse from the programming screen.

Last edited by B4Ctom1; May 10, 2002 at 09:15 PM.
Reply
Old May 10, 2002 | 09:54 PM
  #16  
86TpiTransAm's Avatar
Thread Starter
Supreme Member
 
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,536
Likes: 0
From: Springfield, MO, USA
Car: 1986 Trans Am, 1991 Firebird
Engine: 355 TPI, 3.1L V6
Transmission: 700R4 in both
Thanks for the info. I think that's the reason a friend of mine can run his '89 IROC with stock ECM, no MAF, bigger injectors, 50psi, and N20. He has the stock chip but I think it's running in LHM which would put the ECM into Alpha-N. Very interesting.

Is the pre-determined tables for Alpha-N programmable so if a person wanted to intentionally run their 165 ecm in alpha-n mode they could and still program it to run properly? This would be very helpful for someone like myself that has the 165/MAF ecm and wants to use a turbo? Would I be better off running in Alpha-N or just running a turbo and maxing the MAF at 255 gm/sec. Swapping to SD is not an option for me.
Reply
Old May 11, 2002 | 01:23 AM
  #17  
89ProchargedROC's Avatar
Supreme Member
 
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 1,711
Likes: 0
From: chi-town
alpha-n is the BIGGEST PITA to tune

basically you are ONLY tuning on TPS voltage/angle and RPM

it is extremely tough to tune and you just about need a dyno unless you have someone who has tuned alpha-n before

the maps are TOTALLY different
Reply
Old May 11, 2002 | 02:21 AM
  #18  
86TpiTransAm's Avatar
Thread Starter
Supreme Member
 
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,536
Likes: 0
From: Springfield, MO, USA
Car: 1986 Trans Am, 1991 Firebird
Engine: 355 TPI, 3.1L V6
Transmission: 700R4 in both
So what's going to be the disadvantage to maxing the MAF at 255 gm/sec other than the obvious? Also, if I were to install a turbo with the MAF, what exactly would need to be changed in the chip to compensate for the extra air from the turbo?
Reply
Old May 11, 2002 | 11:52 PM
  #19  
Grumpy's Avatar
Supreme Member
 
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 7,554
Likes: 1
From: In reality
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
Originally posted by B4Ctom1
route the air into the MAF, then to the turbo, and then to the engine. or just build it to blow through the MAF because the sensor rate for the stock MAF gets exceeded pretty quick any ways and it will still work like normal.
Blowing thru the stock MAF will generate about 6 ozs of plastic chips from the case blowing apart.

If you want to do a blow thru this is how to do it but you have to use a LT/LS1 type MAF. this happens to be an option on the 89 TTAs but none of the others.

http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/engine/mafrelocate.html
Reply
Old May 11, 2002 | 11:55 PM
  #20  
fly89gta's Avatar
Supreme Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 4,335
Likes: 4
From: Mays Landing NJ
Car: 2018 Camaro SS
Engine: LT1 w/Paxton 1500SL
Originally posted by Grumpy


Blowing thru the stock MAF will generate about 6 ozs of plastic chips from the case blowing apart.

u mean that's not good for the engine?
Reply
Old May 11, 2002 | 11:56 PM
  #21  
Grumpy's Avatar
Supreme Member
 
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 7,554
Likes: 1
From: In reality
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
Originally posted by Guido


WTF?

Dude, next time research your answers before you give bogus answers. There is only one MAF for TPI, always has only been one MAF for TPI and probably always WILL be one MAF for TPI. There is no upgrading. And even if you could, then you have to overcome the limits in the ECM. It only reads to a certain point then it wont register more air.

Gee, it would be easy to quote you about quoting bad information. The ecm isn't the limit. The software will read to 255, that number isn't grams/sec unless you write the tables that way. Using a GM computer, and what was a 255 grm/sec limited system, I'm running a calibration that allows for 510 grams/sec..
Reply
Old May 12, 2002 | 12:23 AM
  #22  
86TpiTransAm's Avatar
Thread Starter
Supreme Member
 
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,536
Likes: 0
From: Springfield, MO, USA
Car: 1986 Trans Am, 1991 Firebird
Engine: 355 TPI, 3.1L V6
Transmission: 700R4 in both
Originally posted by Grumpy

Using a GM computer, and what was a 255 grm/sec limited system, I'm running a calibration that allows for 510 grams/sec..
Using a TPI ECM?? I've gotta see this to believe it. Sorry, I live in the Show Me State.
Reply
Old May 12, 2002 | 01:00 PM
  #23  
86TpiTransAm's Avatar
Thread Starter
Supreme Member
 
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,536
Likes: 0
From: Springfield, MO, USA
Car: 1986 Trans Am, 1991 Firebird
Engine: 355 TPI, 3.1L V6
Transmission: 700R4 in both
So if I can't blow the air through the MAF w/out destroying it then I should be able to get away with putting the MAF before the turbo and sucking the air through the MAF right? I know this will max the MAF due to the sofware limitation, since it's written as gm/sec in my calibration, but it's not like I have much other option at this point in time and I know there's at least 1 person on this board that's running a supercharger with MAF.

Last edited by 86TpiTransAm; May 12, 2002 at 01:03 PM.
Reply
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
89GTAOz
Tech / General Engine
13
May 16, 2020 09:31 AM
Orr89RocZ
Power Adders
206
Apr 25, 2016 08:28 AM
NBrehm
Engine/Drivetrain/Suspension Parts for Sale
1
Aug 25, 2015 11:49 PM
Bert87
Electronics
3
Aug 23, 2015 03:50 PM
Sanjay
Engine/Drivetrain/Suspension Parts for Sale
1
Aug 12, 2015 03:41 PM




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:27 PM.