naaawws question
10-08-2002, 11:23 PM
#1
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Car: for now i have a 79 firebird that had a toasted 301 (imagine that!)
Engine: well i *had* a 301, but there is a pontiac 350 on the stand to get me on the road again and a 428 after that :D
Transmission: th350
naaawws question
yeah, i know it's nos, just perking things up a bit.
i know nothing about the stuff and i have a few questions.
i may like to use it, but i have heard that it may shorten the life of your engine..... i'm not too fond of that. is this true?
i do know that you don't just slap a nos system on any engine. i know that there are a few things that need to be dealt with. better pistons and rings? cam with nice wide lsa?
what about compression and tuning?
thanks for the help
i know nothing about the stuff and i have a few questions.
i may like to use it, but i have heard that it may shorten the life of your engine..... i'm not too fond of that. is this true?
i do know that you don't just slap a nos system on any engine. i know that there are a few things that need to be dealt with. better pistons and rings? cam with nice wide lsa?
what about compression and tuning?
thanks for the help
10-09-2002, 12:08 PM
#2
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Car: 1992 B4C 1LE
Engine: Proaction 412, Accel singleplane
Transmission: built 700R4 w/custom converter
Axle/Gears: stock w/later 4th gen torsen pos
a good tune up, an engine in good shape, a quality installation, and use in non excessive amounts (same as boosted motors) = you hauling *** right away
10-09-2002, 12:32 PM
#3
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Car: 87 IROC-Z
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Transmission: MDP T56
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Here is some good reading about motors and nitrous...
Rick
-----------------------------
Nitrous oxide injection is probably one of the most misunderstood modifications in our hobby.
Nitrous oxide is an oxygen bearing compound. Its chemical designator is N2O, so we know each nitrous oxygen molecule has two nitrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Nitrous oxide is sometimes incorrectly known as "NOS". That is an acronym for the company, Nitrous Oxide Systems, which is the largest marketer of nitrous oxide injections system for automotive use.
Injection of nitrous oxide into the combustion chambers of an internal combustion engine as a way to increase power output was discovered by the German air craft industry early in the Second World War. Thousands of German figher and reconassance aircraft were equipped with the so-called "GM-1" system which added nitrous oxide to the intake charge to compensate for reduced air density and less oxygen high altitude.
The British Royal Air Force also used aircraft engines with performance enhanced by nitrous oxide. Interestingly, there was no use of nitrous oxide injection by the American military air forces other than very limited experimental use. It is interesting to ask oneself that, if nitrous oxide injection was so dangerous to an engine's reliability, why would so many airplanes have used it?
In this country during 1950s the famed stock car racer Smokey Yunick rediscoverd nitrous oxide injection as one of his many schemes for winning races until discovered and outlawed by NASCAR. Neverthesless, there have been several nitrous oxide cheating scandals in NASCAR over the years and it is probably still used today by the slowest of backmarkers. In the late-70s/early-80s nitrous oxide was "rediscovered" by drag racers and hot rodders.
Today nitrous oxide injection, like many other modifications such as more aggressive camshafts, bigger carburetors, higher compression ratios, more free flowing intake and exhaust systems, can be a pracitical way to more horsepower. And..like any other modification...perhaps even more so because it so easily lends itself to misuse...there can be a reliabity and durability price to pay.
Nitrous oxide is a colorless, non-flammable gas. It has a slightly sweet taste and odor. It is non-toxic and non-irritating and when inhaled in small quantitites can produce mild hysteria and giggling or laughter. This is were the nickname "laughing gas" comes form. When inhaled in pure form it will cause death by asphyxiation because at atmospheric temperatures and pressure, the oxygen in nitrous oxide is not available to the body.
A property of nitrous oxide is that at about 565 degrees F., it breaks down into nitrogen and oxygen. When it is introduced into the intake tract of an internal combustion engine, it is sucked into the combustion chamber and, on the compression stroke, when the charge air temperature reachs 565 deg., a very oxygen-rich mixture results. If we add extra fuel during nitrous oxide injection, the effect is like a super charger or increasing the compression ratio of the engine. Automotive nitrous systems work like the automotive eqivalent of a jet's afterburner" and is used for short duration extra bursts of power.
Nitrous oxide has this effect because it has a higher percentage of oxygen content than does the air in the atmosphere. Nitrous has 36% oxygen by weight and the atmosphere has 23%. Additionally, nitrous oxide is 50% more dense than air at the same pressure. Thus, a cubic foot of nitrous oxide contains 2.3 times as much oxygen as a cubic foot of air. Just do a bit of math in your head and you can see if we substitute some nitrous oxide for some of the air going into an engine than add the appropriate amount of additional fuel, the engine is going to put out more power.
Simply stated, nitrous oxide injection is very much like a supercharger or a compression ratio increase in that, during combustion, it can dramatically increase the dynamic cylinder pressure in the engine.
Of course, when we significantly increase the cylinder pressure in the engine, we also increase the engine's tendancy to detonate. This is why almost all nitrous motors require retarded spark timing during nitrous oxide operation. The cylinder pressure increase is also why, when misused or improperly installed, operation with nitrous causes problems with head gasket seal and failures of the rings or pistons. I should point out that any number of things that put an engine into severe detonation, such as too much boost from a supercharger, low octane fuel, excessive compression ratio or overly lean air-fuel ratio will also cause the same kinds of damage.
Another challenge with a nitrous oxide system is getting the delivery of nitrous oxide and additinonal fuel at the correct proportions. If you feed nitrous to the engine without enough extra fuel, the lean air/nitrous to fuel mixture will make the detonation problem even worse. Combustion temperatures will skyrocket and catistropic failure is certain to occur. If the proportion is such that too much fuel is delivered, the power advantage degrades rapidly.
Nitrous oxide is like any other power increasing modification in that, when used wisely and installed properly, it works well. Then used foolishy or installed incorectly it can significantly reduced the reliability/durability of your engine.
Small doses of nitrous oxide can be used in stock engines to gain 25-35% more power. In my opinion, any more than nitrous than that with a stock engine compromises durability too much. This is not only true of nitrous but any modification. Take a stock 82 or 84 engine, up the horsepower to 300hp and do nothing to improve durability and your engine will eventually suffer. Once you pass the 35% power increase mark with nitrous oxide you need to look at things like forged pistons, better connectiing rods, better bearings, etc.
Nitrous oxide is also a great value on a dollar-per-unit-power increase when installed and operated properly. The downside, of course, is the fun ends quiclky. The power boost lasts as long as the nitrous.
So nitrous oxide is not the instant engine-failure many people think it is. When used properly and when dispensed by a properly designed and installed system nitrous oxide can be responsible for some phenominal increases in power.
Rick
-----------------------------
Nitrous oxide injection is probably one of the most misunderstood modifications in our hobby.
Nitrous oxide is an oxygen bearing compound. Its chemical designator is N2O, so we know each nitrous oxygen molecule has two nitrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Nitrous oxide is sometimes incorrectly known as "NOS". That is an acronym for the company, Nitrous Oxide Systems, which is the largest marketer of nitrous oxide injections system for automotive use.
Injection of nitrous oxide into the combustion chambers of an internal combustion engine as a way to increase power output was discovered by the German air craft industry early in the Second World War. Thousands of German figher and reconassance aircraft were equipped with the so-called "GM-1" system which added nitrous oxide to the intake charge to compensate for reduced air density and less oxygen high altitude.
The British Royal Air Force also used aircraft engines with performance enhanced by nitrous oxide. Interestingly, there was no use of nitrous oxide injection by the American military air forces other than very limited experimental use. It is interesting to ask oneself that, if nitrous oxide injection was so dangerous to an engine's reliability, why would so many airplanes have used it?
In this country during 1950s the famed stock car racer Smokey Yunick rediscoverd nitrous oxide injection as one of his many schemes for winning races until discovered and outlawed by NASCAR. Neverthesless, there have been several nitrous oxide cheating scandals in NASCAR over the years and it is probably still used today by the slowest of backmarkers. In the late-70s/early-80s nitrous oxide was "rediscovered" by drag racers and hot rodders.
Today nitrous oxide injection, like many other modifications such as more aggressive camshafts, bigger carburetors, higher compression ratios, more free flowing intake and exhaust systems, can be a pracitical way to more horsepower. And..like any other modification...perhaps even more so because it so easily lends itself to misuse...there can be a reliabity and durability price to pay.
Nitrous oxide is a colorless, non-flammable gas. It has a slightly sweet taste and odor. It is non-toxic and non-irritating and when inhaled in small quantitites can produce mild hysteria and giggling or laughter. This is were the nickname "laughing gas" comes form. When inhaled in pure form it will cause death by asphyxiation because at atmospheric temperatures and pressure, the oxygen in nitrous oxide is not available to the body.
A property of nitrous oxide is that at about 565 degrees F., it breaks down into nitrogen and oxygen. When it is introduced into the intake tract of an internal combustion engine, it is sucked into the combustion chamber and, on the compression stroke, when the charge air temperature reachs 565 deg., a very oxygen-rich mixture results. If we add extra fuel during nitrous oxide injection, the effect is like a super charger or increasing the compression ratio of the engine. Automotive nitrous systems work like the automotive eqivalent of a jet's afterburner" and is used for short duration extra bursts of power.
Nitrous oxide has this effect because it has a higher percentage of oxygen content than does the air in the atmosphere. Nitrous has 36% oxygen by weight and the atmosphere has 23%. Additionally, nitrous oxide is 50% more dense than air at the same pressure. Thus, a cubic foot of nitrous oxide contains 2.3 times as much oxygen as a cubic foot of air. Just do a bit of math in your head and you can see if we substitute some nitrous oxide for some of the air going into an engine than add the appropriate amount of additional fuel, the engine is going to put out more power.
Simply stated, nitrous oxide injection is very much like a supercharger or a compression ratio increase in that, during combustion, it can dramatically increase the dynamic cylinder pressure in the engine.
Of course, when we significantly increase the cylinder pressure in the engine, we also increase the engine's tendancy to detonate. This is why almost all nitrous motors require retarded spark timing during nitrous oxide operation. The cylinder pressure increase is also why, when misused or improperly installed, operation with nitrous causes problems with head gasket seal and failures of the rings or pistons. I should point out that any number of things that put an engine into severe detonation, such as too much boost from a supercharger, low octane fuel, excessive compression ratio or overly lean air-fuel ratio will also cause the same kinds of damage.
Another challenge with a nitrous oxide system is getting the delivery of nitrous oxide and additinonal fuel at the correct proportions. If you feed nitrous to the engine without enough extra fuel, the lean air/nitrous to fuel mixture will make the detonation problem even worse. Combustion temperatures will skyrocket and catistropic failure is certain to occur. If the proportion is such that too much fuel is delivered, the power advantage degrades rapidly.
Nitrous oxide is like any other power increasing modification in that, when used wisely and installed properly, it works well. Then used foolishy or installed incorectly it can significantly reduced the reliability/durability of your engine.
Small doses of nitrous oxide can be used in stock engines to gain 25-35% more power. In my opinion, any more than nitrous than that with a stock engine compromises durability too much. This is not only true of nitrous but any modification. Take a stock 82 or 84 engine, up the horsepower to 300hp and do nothing to improve durability and your engine will eventually suffer. Once you pass the 35% power increase mark with nitrous oxide you need to look at things like forged pistons, better connectiing rods, better bearings, etc.
Nitrous oxide is also a great value on a dollar-per-unit-power increase when installed and operated properly. The downside, of course, is the fun ends quiclky. The power boost lasts as long as the nitrous.
So nitrous oxide is not the instant engine-failure many people think it is. When used properly and when dispensed by a properly designed and installed system nitrous oxide can be responsible for some phenominal increases in power.
10-09-2002, 07:42 PM
#5
Supreme Member
So nitrous oxide is not the instant engine-failure many people think it is. When used properly and when dispensed by a properly designed and installed system nitrous oxide can be responsible for some phenominal increases in power.
Thanks, this is exactly what I need to show my dad that nitrous isnt as destructive as he thinks it is. I understand his reasoning for not wanting me to get it, but maybe this will help him understand why I want it.
10-09-2002, 10:07 PM
#6
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Car: 87Z
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TexasLT1 you need to work on hooking up before you even think about Nitrous. With that set up you should be pulling 1.8x's or better 60 ' and in turn running 12.9's or so N/A. After you get that taken care of spray it with a 150 shot and run some low 11's. Remeber HP an TQ will do you no good if your stuck spinning your tires. Very nice set up you have there by the way! 
10-09-2002, 10:29 PM
#7
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oh not to worry my friend, traction is priority on my list of things for my car. As soon as I get home on break from school I'm getting Nitto's and probably some LCA relocation brackets. nitrous will be a ways down the road, but I need to start convincing my dad now 
thanks for the comment. I was kinda satisfied and kinda disappointed at the same time with my timeslip. It was my first time at the track, so that had a little to do with it, but I couldn't launch for **** running street tires. I was just going to get some experience anyway.
I'm just worried that when I get traction, something is going to break. yeah I just rebuilt my tranny, but I only replaced the parts that needed to be, and everything from there back has....160K(?) miles on it. so hopefully everything will hold up atleast until I get the funds to upgrade it.
thanks for the comment. I was kinda satisfied and kinda disappointed at the same time with my timeslip. It was my first time at the track, so that had a little to do with it, but I couldn't launch for **** running street tires. I was just going to get some experience anyway.
I'm just worried that when I get traction, something is going to break. yeah I just rebuilt my tranny, but I only replaced the parts that needed to be, and everything from there back has....160K(?) miles on it. so hopefully everything will hold up atleast until I get the funds to upgrade it.
Last edited by TexasLT1; 10-09-2002 at 10:35 PM.
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10-10-2002, 06:48 AM
#8
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Car: 87Z
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Originally posted by TexasLT1
I'm just worried that when I get traction, something is going to break.
I'm just worried that when I get traction, something is going to break.
Its the price we pay for moding our cars. I have mine in the air at less 3 times a year with something broke.
With your power look at TQ arm, panhard, LCA's, good shocks, and ET streets not Nittos.Good Luck
Rob
10-10-2002, 07:34 AM
#9
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and ET streets not Nittos.
10-10-2002, 10:11 AM
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Car: 1992 B4C 1LE
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Transmission: built 700R4 w/custom converter
Axle/Gears: stock w/later 4th gen torsen pos
Originally posted by TexasLT1
Thanks, this is exactly what I need to show my dad that nitrous isnt as destructive as he thinks it is. I understand his reasoning for not wanting me to get it, but maybe this will help him understand why I want it.
Thanks, this is exactly what I need to show my dad that nitrous isnt as destructive as he thinks it is. I understand his reasoning for not wanting me to get it, but maybe this will help him understand why I want it.
10-10-2002, 11:14 AM
#12
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too true rocc4u.
lol, you know he just might! 
Tell your dad that being anti nitrous is like being anti gun, nitrous dont kill motors, people kill motors, as he's a proud texan, Im sure he'll understand.
10-10-2002, 01:04 PM
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Car: 87 IROC-Z
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B4Ctom1
Tell your dad that being anti nitrous is like being anti gun, nitrous dont kill motors, people kill motors, as he's a proud texan, Im sure he'll understand.
Tell your dad that being anti nitrous is like being anti gun, nitrous dont kill motors, people kill motors, as he's a proud texan, Im sure he'll understand.
Rick
10-12-2002, 01:43 AM
#14
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Car: 1992 B4C 1LE
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Transmission: built 700R4 w/custom converter
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B4Ctom1 = National Rifle Association member and Fifty Caliber Shooters Association member and occasional Nawwwws user
10-14-2002, 12:23 AM
#15
sweet!
hey guys....i have some questions too... 
i have a 86 t-a,with a 78 gmc truck 350 4-bolt in it...i plan on taking the motor out to rebuild it anyway,i have new summit polished rods,steel roller rockers, torker2intake, 600 holley(should i get bigger?) sitting on the bench already,etc..i was planning on running some type of forged pistons...
What type of piston(flat-top,domed,wedge), compression ratio,valve size, cam is needed to run well with n2o? I saw a line of cams from comp cams made for n2o(nitrous hp)...id pick pretty lumpy(2500-6500 rpm) with duration 274 intake 292 exhaust, as this is going to be a weekend rice-eater car not a daily driver. Id like to use nos cheater kit which i could adjust from 150-250 hp. I think on the limited budget i have,n2o is the way to go!!!
im a little lacking on funds(the reason why i dont want a supercharger lol) am i thinking right? i dont know a whole load about engine building,i mean i can rebuild or install anything,electrecial is my forte at work.I just dont know a whole lot abot cam degreeing,factoring compression ratios.etc...
somebody please let me know if im thinking right with this whole setup..mike :lala:
i have a 86 t-a,with a 78 gmc truck 350 4-bolt in it...i plan on taking the motor out to rebuild it anyway,i have new summit polished rods,steel roller rockers, torker2intake, 600 holley(should i get bigger?) sitting on the bench already,etc..i was planning on running some type of forged pistons...
What type of piston(flat-top,domed,wedge), compression ratio,valve size, cam is needed to run well with n2o? I saw a line of cams from comp cams made for n2o(nitrous hp)...id pick pretty lumpy(2500-6500 rpm) with duration 274 intake 292 exhaust, as this is going to be a weekend rice-eater car not a daily driver. Id like to use nos cheater kit which i could adjust from 150-250 hp. I think on the limited budget i have,n2o is the way to go!!!
im a little lacking on funds(the reason why i dont want a supercharger lol) am i thinking right? i dont know a whole load about engine building,i mean i can rebuild or install anything,electrecial is my forte at work.I just dont know a whole lot abot cam degreeing,factoring compression ratios.etc...
somebody please let me know if im thinking right with this whole setup..mike :lala:
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