Does the SuperRam work well charged? I was told u might as well have the regular ported plenium with a charger, that it works better. Was wondering if it was true?

 

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=161299

 

Um, thats the Holly Stealth Ram, I was talknig about the Acccel Super Ram.

Thanx

 

I am about to stick a charger to my Superram. I was told that the bolts that hold the lid on wont do well against the pressure of a supercharger. So I am in the process of studing my intake so that the lid just goes on and stays on I am going to put a threaded bolt in and weld a nut on the inside. so it doesn't walk off and fall in the engine and will probably put a cotte pin on the top side so that the top nut wont come off. This is the only issure that some one has brought to my attention. The only other problem really isn't a problem Super Rams are not know for High Rpm so make sure you get a charger that doesn't need high Rpm. My D1X is only good till about 5500 RPM so its kind of perfect for the Super ram. If you want to know the rest I got going on with my Setup Just ask I am not the private rodder type.

 

Thanx, I am running a 383ci also, was thinking of grabbing a superram for this year as i found a nice one used, but was planning to grab a set of AFR's 190 74cc heads next spring and charge it. When i started asking around here, they all said to stay with my stock plenium and upgrade the runners, or go mini/stealth ram. Thay told me what u said and that the boxed setup of the Super Ram hurts the flow, that i would actualy loose abit of power with it. Just wanted to know what u guy's thought.

Thanx

 

Oh Im sorry, yeah people blow on those too, I have one of them already (not installed) I believe Im putting it on my N/A car though. Thats why I was looking at the holley -sorry

 

:cough: BULLSCHIT!! :cough: Who told you that? Did this person own a SR and a supercharger or was it another internet expert? I ran my SR on a Vortech R-trim'd 406 with 14+/- # of boost and NEVER had any problems.


You need to have a blower grind cam that takes advantage of where the SR makes power. Accel/LPE says 6500 is the max rpm's with a SR. Ya right, more like 6200; shift around 6000. The cam I just took out that I was running with my setup was 110/118cl, 226/234 duration and 559/576 lift with 1:6 rockers. As far as the supercharger, you just need to make sure you pulley the thing so you are spinning at it's optimum/max rpm at your shift point. IMO it doesn't matter what compressor you're running, just pulley it correctly.

Oh, BTW, the SR and a supercharger worked VERY well together

 

what kind performance results?

 

restrict flow my ***, it's under pressure, how can you restrict flow under boost. The restriction will be on the exhaust side if anything. i have a vortech and superam and love it. IMO, superam/egr. OR any other intake/non egr. under boost it doesn't matter much, decide which one is for you by deciding if you are going emmsions legal or not.

 

I see what he is saying with the restriction statement. Many have discussed the demons of restriction in a blown application, if there were no restriction there'd be no indicated boost. Guido as well as many others have discussed here where flow on blown motors is as important as non-blown and the super ram does only show and indicated flow of 280 cfm per runner, and that is because of the runners even ported or extrude honed does not bump them up that much. I have one myself, I dont think of it as a bad enough restriction to be a problem. If anything it is a tradeoff for torque off idle. I mistakenly discussed the holley SR in this thread before I realized what we were supposed to be talking about. That is because I have HSR on the brain, because that is what I have considered now for my blown motor. Someone at Holley told me, maybe it was the holley tech guy that the holley SR flows over 300! per runner. But if it doesnt come together and I cant afford to have two nice intakes then you will see the accel on my blown car, with no regrets.

 

Thats y i wanted to ask u guy's, to get some real life info and so much theory.

Thanx again

 

well, i just want to reiterate, that restriction will be on the exhaust side, way before you will see any restriction w/ the superam. It flows really well. And like i said, i have the superam and a blower, because i wanted an intake w/ a EGR provision and it is a very good street intake.

 

I disagree, even GM smog heads have good flow on the exhaust side in comparison to the intake side, this is even more so on performance heads. The proliferation and availability of large tube headers has improved the situation, if there is any restriction in the exaust due to the single pipe form it has, this can be overcome with a quickie dump or a 4" system. some (many) have even fabricated nice dual systems. on dual cat cars this is actually perfectly smog legal. There are a ton of things that can be done from the headers back to fix this situation. so your statement about the back up or restriction on the exhaust system makes no sense.

 

so you're saying the superam is the biggest restriction on a forced induction tpi. i don't think it's a restriction on our level, it's one of the best flowing sytems out there.

 

for standard TPI layout systems it is definitely up there, as far as being the biggest restriction, it is usually the intake side of the head and valve.

 

i have a vortech connected to my superram you can see it at:
http://darcom.org

 

runner length and plenum volume has a lot to do with torque and rpm limits too

Lastly the only thing i dont like about the stealthram are the modifications to make it work to its potential.

If you have an intake that flows 300cfm per runner easy why mate it to a 1205 gasket that wont fit a big intake port head that flows the 300cfm ?

The money it costs to get the stealthram to fit a 1206 or 1207 you could buy a super victor and convert it to fuel injection. Hell edelbrock even now has converted victor juniors you can buy STRAIGHT from them

 

so explian to me how 280cfm per runner is a restriction. most poeple run 1000-1250cfm tb's. That's far less than 8 tubes @ 280cfm each. and even then, it is still under pressure. and also, correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't it how fast you can get the exhaust out that matters. You are "forcing" the air in, and as far as i can guess, why does it matter if you have a SR, miniram, or stock tpi setup? besides the volume of the intake, don't they all make about the same power in boosted applications? correct me if i'm wrong. that's just what i thought. And doesn't the cam also a big factor in how a blower motor breathes. i think about the analogy of the motor just being a big pump, the trick being to get the air out as fast as possible. Especially in boosted applications, where you are cramming more air in. So who cares if you have 30 ft of intercooler tubing or not, or a smaller intake? so when i think about intake flow characteristics, i feel that under boost, or pressure, it doesn't really matter. even w/ better intake, you see less boost right?,...but you will make as much power as the same blower pulley w/ a stock intake and it's naturallly higher boost. am i totally wrong here? I'm confused, but i think i might have a point or 2. ???

 

The flow of the throttle body and the flow of the individual runners isn't something you can compare that easily. Throttle bodies are flowed at a very low vacuum number (I would assume most are done at 1.5" vacuum, similar to a 4bbl carb but there is no industry standard on this that I am aware of). Intake ports and runners are flowed at a high vacuum number, usually 25" or 28" of vacuum. But throttle bodies flow air relatively continuously into the engine while an individual intake port only flows for a split second every time the intake valve of it's cylinder is open. So it's not easy to compare the two directly.

280 CFM per runner seems adequate to me for a street intake. I agree with others that the restriction in a blower motor is usually going to be on the exhaust side. If the intake flows well enough not to be a restriction N/A then it probably won't be under boost, either.

 

got any links or more info? do they offer them with rails? how much?

 

the restriction is on the intake side people. I guarranntee you that if you ran NOTHING on your cylinder heads on the exhaust side and still ran the motor you'd still see BOOST because your intake/heads are not efficiently processing all the CFM that is trying to be stuffed into it.

 

http://edelbrock.com/automotive/new2...manifolds.html

 

I only see one that fits SBC and it says it is "based on the Victor E". when I look up the "Victor E" I see this message "intake gasket: Fel-Pro #1205"

 

89 Procharged roc,
Damon backs up what i am saying. I see your point, but think about how your motor gets rid of what's in the cylinder heads and how long it is on the exhaust stroke. I am talking about getting plenty of air in and not being able to get it out. With any forced in induction motor, ANY custom blower specific grind cam, heads, headers, you always see more on the exhast side, bigger ports, larger grinds on the exhaust side of the cams........... on the intake stroke you are forcing air in, so it is never a restriction, as lond as you can get it out. On a naturally aspirated motor, you'll see 10-15hp gains w/a k+n filter, but on a forced induction setup, you might only see a 3hp gain. This is because there is nothing on exhast side pulling air out. You usually run more overlap, to put pressure on exhaust. all the s/c books always talk about the biggest problem on a forced induction motor is flowing or pulling air out of the "pump". Look at the grind on the LPE 220 cam. That is perfect proof. It's not only about having good exhaust or header flow, it's more of an internal thing. Read up on it.

 

The reason you build boost isn't because the intake is a huge restriction in most cases. THE ENGINE ITSELF IS THE RESTRICTION! And it's supposed to be. You're cramming 10 pounds of stuff into a 5 pound bag. You can run sewer pipe sized intake ports and runners and you will STILL make boost. You're pressurizing the CYLINDER. There's no place for the intake air to go when it's being shoved into a cylinder of limited volume. pressure builds up as a by-product.

Yes, the whole intake system is a restriction to some degree in all motors but that's unavoidable since you can't run huge 3" intake ports and runners to every cylinder- you'd have no velocity in the intake and end up making LESS power. Intakes are always a trade off between flow and velocity.

My modest experience with forced induction motors has led me to believe that the main difficulty usually lies with getting the huge volume of exhaust back OUT of the cylinder effectively.

 

you said it, modest experience. I've been involved with a lot of boosted motors and i dont claim to know 100% about everything but i can already see that what i am trying to help you understand wont be learned.

i'm out

B4Ctom....that sucks about the victor intake.

 

and now, for something completely different-i believe that i recall the reason for this threads existence had something to do with, umm, oh yeah-boost and superrams. dang, i forgot wtf i was gonna say. ok got it now. not to worry, boost and superrams work just fine. im only seeing 7 psi though. if i had a hat on i would take it off for ya 96 blownssragtop. i would like to pick your brain about your experiences with that kind of boost. specially the cam selection process. i will pm you. 2 cents-damon and 89 procharged are both right. you guys are just attacking the same thing but from opposite directions. plenty of truth in both views. damon is close to it-sorta like having the shop compressor but no tank to fill-sure is neat having the thing pump air, but without your "5 pound bag"(tank)to fill, its just a bunch of noise and wasted electricity.

 

I put in an email about it though, now some corporate flunky at edelbrock can say, "look-look-look, I got an idea, aint I cool now? Mr. Boss? Can I jump on your Edel-****?" You might be able to tell that I am sour towards cool companies that become contaminated with corporate-ism and the product developement blindness that goes along with it (GM are you listening?)

 

well, doesn't what i said go hand in hand w/ what damon was saying? and 89 PROCHARGED ROC < i don't think you were "involved" all that much, because you make no sense. Just slapping a blower on is easy, but understanding how to optimize them is obviuosly not easy for everyone. What you're saying goes against everything I've read.

 

LOL....thats nice. Maybe i'm explaining things differently and you aren't grasping the concept.

What it really boils down to is the engine is just an air pump. More air and fuel in, more air and fuel out = horsepower

With a FI motor, yes, the air is pressureized and "forced in" maybe that is why you are saying the intake is not the restriction because you have to get all that air OUT of the for it to make horsepower.

What i'm trying to explain to you is that the largest restriction is in the cylinder heads and that is in the intake side. If your motor was processing everybit bit of cfm that the blower/turbo was putting out, you'd have no backup of pressure in the intake (boost). Even if you have the most effiecient exhaust in the world you'd still create a pressure on the intake side because your particular intake whichever you run and your cylinder flow are going to be the limiting factor. You can only get them to process so much cfm. Understand a little better? In regards to exhaust you can put the biggest tube headers you want or the largest downpipe available and you'd STILL have pressure backed up on the intake because it cannot process it all.

Because of ^^^ is why you lose pressue (boost) when you upgrade and intercooler, heads, or intake. You are essentially improving the efficiency of your motor. Thats why it makes the same power but at a smaller level.

Let's take a real world example that i just posted on @ ls1tech.com not too long ago. We were discussing how important ported heads/intake were in regards to FI motors. People had their opinions for either for/against it.

This is what it came down to:
346" stock cube LS1
stock un ported LS1 cylinder heads/ LS1 intake
if i remember, a Vortech G-trim pullied for about 8psi
made something like 430rwhp i dont remember

He then added:
LS6 intake
Stage II ported LS6 heads
His power numbers dropped 1-2rwhp and 1-2ftlbs
His boost gauge now reported 5psi

---The reason he didn't gain any power is because the only thing he was doing was making his motor more efficient because it could process the pressurized air more so than it could before, hence it lose 3psi in the intake tract.

NOW, if he would've pullied up his blower back up to that same 8psi he would've seen a SIGNIFICANT difference because you are now introducing even more airflow than you previously were @ 8psi the first time around (this is assuming the compressor wheel is spinning in an efficient range for its pressure ratio)


--------All of the above is why when you build a FI motor you REALLY have to decide what kinda power you want to make and how much boost pressure (PSI) you are willing to run for a given motor/octane. Then you base that decision on the types of cylinder heads you want to use and whether or not you want to port them

Do i make more sense now?

 

89 ProchargedROc,
yeah, you make sense now, and you're not acting arrogant anymore, but you should read what you were writing earlier in this post. It made NO sense. FURTHERMORE, you are still wrong about one thing. Nowread this carefully and try to follow me here. The idea that the cylinder heads are the restriction. you are stating that the motor isn't processing it all, because of the intake side restriction. But that's wrong. The fact is; It is not a matter of how big and unrestrictive you make the cylinder heads or intake, or anything on the intake side. The real reason you build boost, is because the intake stroke is so short, that once it closes, the pressure will build (boost is created), and it will keep building untill the chamber opens again to accept the air. So, again, boost does not build because of restrictive heads/intakes or small chambers on the intake side. Now, you will see my point. Once the pressure forces it's way into the chamber, it has to get out. The faster the air gets out, the better or more effective the "pump" is. Now, that's where the problem is. Most motors are not designed to get a ton of air out. In a blower motor, the cam/heads/exhaust specs are all made larger on the exhaust side, so the chamber can empty faster. Certain blower grinds will actually have more overlap to put a kind of pressure on the exhaust to help push the exhaust out. they also run higher specs on the exhaust side. But, there is still no way to "force"the air out. So that is why the exhaust side of the "pump" is the restriction. Get it?

 

Man, you need a score card to keep track of who said what that’s not quite right. Since I’m to lazy to waste my time I’ll just pick out stuff that I feel like commenting on:

No, not even close. First, the ports/runners draw from the common volume of air in the plenum. A well designed plenum (which the superram is) will have enough plenum volume to not get ‘sucked dry’ at WOT and still provide decent response (usually you can get good response at up to a plenum volume of 1.3x that of the engine displacement).

Remember, not all the intake valves are open at once so you do not have to feed all the cylinders at once. For that matter, you only have to feed half the cylinders for each revolution.

WRT to what it can support, 280cfm is about equal to a TB that flows 770cfm (think about that when your running a 52 or 58mm TB on a stock TPI which only flows about 200cfm per runner, and stock heads which only flow 170cfm or so per port).

OK, you’re wrong. But it would be a fair statement that it doesn’t matter quite as much as it does in an NA application.

The reason that you’re wrong is that for the most part, ports/runners will have similar flow characteristics under boost as they do NA. If you had a blower that could feed an engine X amount of boost across it’s whole operating range and you ran that engine with and without that blower on a dyno you’d see that it’s torque and VE curves (after all, torque is just a function of VE and displacement) would have the same shape, the boosted one would just have more area under it.

The only reason that I’m saying that it doesn’t matter as much is that for the most part blowers can’t deliver an even amount of boost through the whole operating range which modifies the shape of the torque curve to be between what the engine could pump NA and what the blower pumps.

Yes, a cam does effect how a an engine breaths, but I would argue that a more correct way of looking at it is that we choose cam grinds that compensate for the inadequacies of the rest of the engine package, the screw ups of the builders and the mismatch between the parts that you have and the intended powerband for the engine. If all engines had optimally matched and designed parts for their applications, then there would pretty much only be one basic cam design for each engine type.

BTW, the length of the intercooler air tubing does make a significant difference. Under boost at WOT it does have a small effect similar to adding plenum volume, but more so it adds a significant restriction. The walls and even more importantly any bends add significant drag to the airflow and will lower the total amount of air (boost) the engine will see. You need to keep the plumbing losses lower then any gains from running the intercooler.

The intake might or might not be a restriction, that depends on a combination of total intake flow, RPM and VE at that RPM. For example, a stock TPI intake shouldn’t be a restriction on a 350 at 5500rpm assuming that the engine combination is capable of supporting 100% VE at that rpm (which is unlikely so the RPM that the intake will become a restriction will actually be higher in real life). What I mean by that is that at that RPM the intake is still capable of supporting more flow the pistons are displacing moving up and down (boost or no boost).

BTW, Bad example. If you take the exhaust completely off an engine you’d see less flow through the intake because you’d loose the stable flow characteristics and any scavenging effect so engine VE would go down and boost measured in the intake (assuming that the compressor is pumping the same volume of air) will go up.

Ding ding ding! You win! Sorta.

The reason that you see boost is that any one or multiple parts of the engine cannot support as much total air flow as what the blower is pumping (but yes, with the #’s that we’re throwing around here, the actual cylinders cannot move enough air). It could be the intake, cylinders or exhaust. It doesn’t matter that much what, but you’re forcing more air in then the engine can deal with NA. If you weren’t you’d see a vacuum between the blower and the engine and you’d loose performance.

Well, yea, it could be. But the real world fact is that most of the modified engines around here have way more intake flow then they need so that is not the case. That being said, most of these engines could be made more responsive, driveable and have a better midrange by using smaller intake parts, but I’m getting off topic…

No. “Blower” (and N2O) cams DO NOT have a longer exhaust duration so that the intake helps the exhaust out of the chamber. As a matter of fact, that is what you’re trying to avoid. To that end blower cams have a bigger LSA so that there is LESS overlap where both valves are open.

The reason that they have longer exhaust durations is that you are compensating for a mismatch. You are trying to give the exhaust gas as much time to exit the chamber as possible, but at the same time you don’t go too far in that direction because that means that the exhaust valve will open sooner at the bottom of the combustion cycle which is a significant problem since denser air/fuel charges cause a slower burn in the chamber and more power to be harnessed late in the combustion cycle then you would have NA.

*****
Now to answer the original question
*****
Does a SuperRam work well blown? Well, sure. It has similar characteristics to what it would have NA.

I suspect that the biggest reason that people tend to ditch them as they get more serious with their blown setups is just complexity. As cars get modified more, whether they’ll admit it or not owners tend to focus a lot on how easy it is to work on things to further modify or fix what you broke at the track last weekend. The fact is that super rams are more work to do just about everything involving the top half of the engine then a single plane intake of sorts…

Will a stock TPI work better? That really depends on the rest of the engine. In a lot of cases probably not better, but not worse either. You’ll need better then stock heads before you’ll be able to see a significant difference between the two, and then the difference will be that the SR will breath better at higher rpm’s.

Man, I just wrote a freaking book…

 

justin-take a nap-its called a split pattern cam and its been around for a long time-mainly because sbc cylinder heads have shown a weakness in exhaust port flow. im not sure what you would call a piston on its way up from bottom dead center (exhaust stroke)but i would call it a pretty good emulation of a "pump". you go right ahead and build youself a motor with the smallest ports and valves you can find then tell me a blower motor dont give 2 craps about restriction on the intake side. me- im porting, pulleying up and racing on 89 prochargediroc's team.

 

I emailed them this:

• I Emailed edelbrock this
• I sent this to the EFI department because it is related to a new EFI product listed as the #29785 (see here: http://edelbrock.com/automotive/new2...manifolds.html ) which is a as cast EFI bunged version of the #2978. The #2978 uses a 1205 felpro gasket. Are you guys going to make one based off an intake for a 1206 felpro or larger gasket (like most of the serious performance heads use)? -Tom
• they respoded with :
• Thomas,
  
  Even though this is an EFI item we here in EFI have no idea of the plans for this manifold. In most cases our manifolds are more than capable of being
  ported to a 1206 or 1207 gasket or even larger. We will offer this as a small port opening because bigger is simple and smaller is not. There is plenty
  of room for matching to the largest of gaskets.

 

LOL.....

Team OVER BOOST...

 

My new port and blower pulleys (shown actual size)