How would injecting E85 compare to methanol into the intake? Im not talking about running it, just injection.

I wanted to run straight E85, but have been told there arent any "good" E85carbs to support blow through.

I can get E85 very easily, and its cheaper than meth.

Also, could I just put a huge jet in there and downjet my carb accordingly? I'm sure there is a limit as to proper mixture and atomization.........

 

Check the carb section. There is a sweet write up on E85. Tells you jetting conversions and more.

 

Good job bud. Did you read this part?

"Im not talking about running it, just injection."

I read the whole thing anyway. Interesting. But it doesnt answer my question. This is the power adder forum. There have been a lot of views here so I think its a question worth answering. The purpose of injecting alky/water is cool the intake air temp, and a nice side effect is slightly higher octane.
Ethanol and methanol have similiar octane values.
Methanol cools better but does it negate the cheaper cost of E85 and ease of availability?

 

Injected it like a regular water/alky setup. The only difference is that you have 15% gas in it. Adjust the alky percentage due to the 15% of gas. In reality the 15% won't make a huge difference.

The big thing is the pump you use. Most pumps won't handle more than 50% ethonal. Make sure the pump/seals handle the percentage of ethonal you want.

 

I have the snow performance kit, which is meant for methanol. As I understand it, ethanol is less corrosive than meth, so it shouldnt be an issue.
I'm just wondering how well the eth will work compared to the meth...

 

In terms of the pump it shouldn't really matter if it is wood or grain alcohol. The pumps for Shurflo usually have a sticker saying a max of 50% alcohol. I would think the Snow kit has a re-stamped ShurFlo pump.

Ethanol has more energy in it and slightly higher octane than Methanol. If I had a choice between the two.....I would use the Ethanol. I bought a gallon of Strip-Kleen Denatured Alcohol for my water injection setup. It is mostly Ethanol with some additives thrown it....like Methanol and a few others.

EDIT:

This link will answer your questions: http://www.drivingethanol.org/motors...teristics.aspx

 

Ok, guess it depends on the price of conventional ethanol vs e85 then. Thanks, thats a nice chart.

 

Ethanol isn't that bad with the good pumps. Methanol kills seals and you may have to use lube depending on the pump.

Sounds like a good idea, if you're running EFI you'll have to fight with the afr since you'll be adding significant fuel. There used to be a few kits out there that mounted the extra injector on the TB and shot unleaded fuel straight into the motor. It would be the same principle.

My question is: If you can get it that cheap why use it for injection only? Run it full time.

The E85 will satisfy your octane requirements by itself so there wouldn't be much of a need to spray it like an alky setup.....

HTH!

 

I've been told there isnt a good carburator for blow through. I was also told that it is poorly regulated and the tune will change. I can't afford to run lean on my blown motor........especially if I put a shot of nos to it....

 

I will have to dig up the link for the SEDI or SIDI.com or whatever website that sells both alum and steel weld on injector bosses with a hat for about $50.

The thing with that is that you waste a lot of fuel and energy all the time. The good thing about boost engines is the "normally" low compression. Great with 87 octane and better MPG. Under boost you spray it with the high octane and good latent heat removing stuff. Not that E85 is bad to run all the time....but the MPG is terrible for just cruising. Constant E85 is better suited to a race car.

Ethanol and Methanol is all about economics. If you can get E85 cheap, I would spray it with that. I don't have E85 around here. A gallon of Ethanol is about $12 which sucks. If I could get E85 ($3 or around there) I would inject that instead of the $12/gallon stuff.

For a carb setup I always like the idea of welding on an injector bung or a normal MXX nozzle to spray it. Hobbs switch or circuit board turns on the injection. Why not set the carb up for gas and inject E85? The spray kit would only be $200-$300.

 

You seem to be one of the more knowlegable people here so I hate to disagree, but,,,,, I'd have to side with Corky Bell that water/ meth /e-85 injection is a band-aid fix. Yes, I know it works fine for many people, but what happens when a fuse/ or relay or anything fails? You're basically tuning an engine for a better octane fuel than what is really in the tank. It's one more thing that can go wrong. Also if your only argument against full time e-85 is MPG then why are we talkin' turbo at all Any killer turbo engine is not a recipe for fuel economy. And maybe I misunderstood what I quoted but lower compression does not increase MPG (I think you meant e-85 vs gasoline)

I'm not experienced, just done ALOT of reading. I hope I have not overstepped my bounds (you have probably forgotten more than I know) but I would gladly run constant e-85 on a turbo engine if either were available to me

 

Your points are valid. Keep in mind that Corky is trying to push his high dollar aftercoolers. If the injection setup fails then there will be problems. If your fuel pressure regulator fails, your fuel pump fails, injector gets clogged, etc you get the same problems. Boost and Nitrous require the builder to pay attention to detail so that failures are at a minimum with high HP. You will horror stories of each blowing up engines. I know people that won't run EFI in the race car because they say a carb is more reliable. Although, their daily drivers are EFI with many miles and less engine troubles and cost than a carb setup.

I am biased to better MPG with boost. My car sees more non-boost time than boost time. Running E85 full time is fine as long as one understands the 20% - 40% reduction in MPG and the limited availability of E85 pumps. You can't just go filling up anywhere because the engine will be very rich with straight gas.

Production turbo setups are all about fuel economy and more HP. A race setup is about max. HP. Neither of us are "correct" about which way he should go with the E85. We gave him some info. about it and he can decide which is best for his application. Nah, you didn't overstep any bounds. Your points are valid.

 

I disagree with the bandaid statement! I run a kit from alkycontrol. I switch back n forth between meth and denatured(depends on what's available).

If you do not have a scantool it'll be tough to get out of it before detonation rears it's head.

The good thing about turbo Buick motors are they have fuses! They're called headgaskets! With only 4 bolts holding the head on each cylinder it's the first to go ask me how I know .

On a SBC the heads are held in place a little better and detonation will kill the bottom end quick with no other place to vent it to.


I wouldn't be able to run my boost levels on anything but maybe 110! Anyone check the price of 110 lately? I can run 24-27 psi on a 61mm turbo with alky all day and never come close to the cost of race gas.

I'm having problems with the question you've presented inasmuch as you said boost and a shot of Nitrous! A properly setup turbo system with a decent converter(see no 12") and you wont need NOS.

Mixing power adders are for the big time guys and your street motor prolly wont last very long...Only reason turbo people use nitrous is to spool an insane size turbo quicker....

HTH!

 

I like the injection setups with water, ethonal, methonal too. It is true that if they fail you could have problems. Just like any power adder there is always a risk involved. You just try to build it as reliable as possible.

EFI with a knock sensor is good because it helps out if things go wrong. Even better is an ECM with solenoids to control the wastegates. If IATs climb high or knock occurs, the ECM gives the wastegates more air pressure to open more and reduce the intake pressure. Computer control and sensors almost make it too easy with boost.

 

I have a snow performance kit. Well sounds like E85 then. Its only like 2.30-2.40 here. My other question is.....how much can I throw at it? As much as I want until I get atomization problems?

As far as the bandaid goes, I would consider retarding your timing more of a bandaid than throwing some higher octane at it. But I do have a retard **** just incase I run out.....

 

The snow perf. instructions list nozzle size for the amount of HP the engine spits out and what amount of boost it is at. The thing is that all the vendors rate their pumps for what ever they are nominally. Once you change injector size, the pressure changes. That is why all of them recommend starting on the fat side of what you inject. It will bog with too much spray. Reduce it until it doesn't bog and "feels right".

For less than $2.50/gal I would use the E85.

**********************************************************
**** MAKE SURE YOU PURGE THE LINE BEFORE USING IT UNDER BOOST ****
**********************************************************

If it is air bound.....then you will have some of the problems mentioned in this thread. If you run the tank dry, make sure you purge it again before using it.

True, I increased the boost in my rig and had to keep pulling timing. Once all was said and done I had the boost back to about where I started. The HP gains were minimum with more boost because of the weak timing. Intake air temperature (IAT) is a HUGE factor in detonation. Water cools the best and Alky cools 4 times less than water but it has high octane to help battle rattling the pistons. Both cool much better than gas.

 

What about mixing the E85 with water? I know alky and water mix well, but with the 15% gas in there....

 

I wouldn't mix e85 with water. it's gonna atomize differently just due to the 15% gas in it. Gas atomizes at a different heat level than alky does. shooting to much of it may have problems such as puddling...

If you're gonna do it at all I'd stick to straight e85, it would be more than enough for what you need. I forgot who mentioned it, but whoever spoke about 87 octane and boost forget it.

I doubt you'd get it right within the first three engine rebuilds from trying to use 87 octane.

Go 93 and the e85 or alky and you'll be fine. Keep in mind you're not gonna be using alot of it. I can run around all day at 24 psi and still have half of the alky in the bottle. I thik you're confusing fueling an engine with helping the aircharge! you don't need a lot to take the knock away, you're not gonna make more power by just running more alky you need to add boost as well.

Also you can't just add boost, add alky, add boost, add alky! you need to fuel the engine first via jet changes or the chip then add the alky!

HTH!

 

Gotcha, thanks. The plan was to add the alky and add timing slowly until I reached total. My carb isnt meant for anything over 10 lbs of boost, but I'm going to try and stick to 8. Should give me the 200hp increase I'm looking for.....

 

Just out of curiousity why not just use standard water meth injection? Last tiem I checked a bottle of waher fluid is $1.10 versus e85 at close to $3.00. The octane rating on a pure methanol is 120. 50/50 mix is the most optimal to run the most power but the 33% from washer fuild will give you plenty of bite. E85 octane is 104-105 and doesn't have the added benifit of water in it to help disipate heat.

IMHO I would jsut stick with meth injection vs trying to use E85.

 

I havent been able to find any washer fluid that describes contents and percentage. I heard that there is sometimes something extra in there that isnt good for your engine....

I know the water does have a very large effect on cooling, and without being able to run it with E85, your probably right. Is there a certain brand of fluid I should look for?

 

i think he is talking about the fluid sold mainly in the winter... the meth helps keep it from freezing and helps melt ice on the windshield... but it isnt just sold in the winter most places buy it in the winter cause every one runs out i still see it at all the gas stations and supermarkets for about 1.99 a gallon

 

Some have different percentages of meth......and some have bug cleaners and fragrances that you dont want to burn inside your motor.

 

I would check out snow performance I think it is .net but not certain havent been on it ofr months. Basically you go by the freeze point ratings. The ones that are good to only good to -30 and up are not the ones you wnat. you want the -30 ones and not any lower as they ad coolant into them so they don't freeze(mostly found in canada and extremly cold climates).

They have many people who can help by you just giving them the brand name and determine the meth content.

Side note I think two bottles of heet and the equvilent of water makes a true 50/50 ratio. And I double checked a pure 50/50 is the equivilent of running 116 octane in your car with 93 as your base octane.

If that doens't get you excited i don't know what will. lol

 

I don't get it. Are you saying that spraying a 50/50 mix of water/ethanol or water/methanol will turn 93 octane into 116 octane?

Using normal spray percentages, it would bring the 93 octane up to about 95 - 96 octane.

50/50 water/methanol mix
10% methanol ---> 20% water/methanol mix relative to normal fuel
93*.9 + 120*.1 = 95.7 octane

 

I am by no means a chemical engineer so don't take me as the expert from what I have read into it is the equvilent of spraying in 116 octane. I believe I have worded it in properly. Between the cooling effects of the water and the methanol. Check out snow performance they can better expalin the characteristics. basically you can run more timing than you normally would on a boosted engine and each degree of timing is worth horsepower. Can't rememebr the exact amount.

 

Here is alink from one of the techs. I guess it depends on the amount injected as well.
http://www.snowperformance.net/forum...24697cae455273

 

I thought Snow was a better company than that. They are predicting octane values without knowing how much base fuel is being used.

Assuming the engine runs off of the water/alky kit only........the octane rating is about 120.
Assuming the engine runs off 1% of water/alky for fuel and 93 octane for the rest......(.995*93+.005*120) = 93.14 octane.

Notice how Snow post no values and just assumes that the engine is running mostly off of the methanol to make their kit look more effective.

Yes, water does help IAT cooling and battle knock, but it is not an octane increase.

 

Well there is no argueing the effectiveness of meth/injection. Basically you need to compare dyno numbers on vehicles that run it and see what the gains are or at the track.

If the octane increase is so slight which it may very well be then th only real benifit is the water injection used to help supress detonation which was first started in the 70's. It does make seriosu power increases on boosted vehicles when it is tuned for it.

 

Youre definitely not injecting enough to raise your actual octane that high. If so, you would have to rejet tremendously. (Carb) I think what he may be talking about is an equivalence maybe? Like its the same as running 116 in your fuel tank. I also saw get the fluid thats -20*. I'll start looking.....

 

Yes I haven't looked into the numbers for 6 months or more nad yes it is -20 that you want. Each manufactuer differs though and the content is not always the same so once you find the right one which will be closer to 33-34 percent meth, not the 40% that snow claims, stick with that same compnay so your tune is the same.

 

Why are you mixing water and meth? Just run straight meth.

 

Water supposedly has better cooling properties....??

 

Straight methanol is very corrosive and flammable even more so than gasoline. The mixture makes it not flammable to a direct flame unlike methanol. This makes it much safer to run on a daily driver. The cooling properties of the water itself help all over from densor intake temps to reduced knock. The more is always better theory is not the best idea in the case.

 

If max hp gains is what you're after pure methanol is better than any mix of anything.

---> www.alkycontrol.com

 

And wear a fire suite. Ever see a methonal fire?

 

x2

Straight alcohol injection is best left at the race track. Methanol is highly flammable and the whole sytem setup needs great car to be run proprerly. If you don't mind mounting the to tank under the hood for everyone to see or mount a large fuel cell in the tank than by all means go for it becasue you will see the best gains with straight methanol.

IMHO for a street car a mixed injection is best.

 

Ever see a gas fire? There are plenty of ways to have your car catch on fire. The lines delivering the fuel to your fuel rail are no different then the lines delievering the methanol to your cold pipe. As long as the lines and tank are properly protected and installed correctly, you're fine.

Where else would you mount your meth tank? Inside the car? Of course it is going to be either under the hood or in a fuel cell. (No idea why you would waste a whole fuel cell for meth though, there is no need for a tank that big).

False.

 

Yes, I have seen a gas fire. It is orange, blue, and yellow. You missed the point here. Methanol burns clear............you can't see the fire. Gas burns with a color. Fires happen by accident no matter how you route or install things.

You took someone else's post and quoted it as mine? Interesting. When you quote someone you need to give the author credit.

Your "false" statement is an opinion. There are many things to weigh about installing and using any sort of alcohol injection.

 

I plan on running my car on the street often, I would personally run a mix. Its a lot cheaper. At the track perhaps I would run straight meth, but it would take extra tuning and time.

Is there a good site that shows real world differences between straight and mix?

 

So that is your reasoning for running it mixed? I know how meth burns...

Sorry about the misquote. I backspaced the wrong name.

Yeah, there are some things you need weigh before thinking of running meth. Like do I want to run race gas or pump gas? Do I want to run pump gas and get the same effects of race gas? Do I like to go fast? All pretty tough questions.

Obviously saftey is an issue and you need to buy a proper kit and install it correctly. Just like any performance upgrade. (Nitrous, s/c, turbo, etc..) and you have to know how to tune with it. Other then that, I don't see any issue with running straight meth with the kits that are out there today that can support it.
----------
Talk to Julio at www.alkycontrol.com.

 

My point was you can't just use straight methonal in the same manor as a mixed sytsem. Nobody is knocking running straight meth injection as a good source of power, you just need to keep in mind that many people will just run a mix vs. straight meth and saftey happens to be one of the reasons.

Sounds liek you have experience with running straight meth, how often would you need to refill the tank on a street car? How much does it usually cost you to fill the resivior?

 

Usually a 30 gallon will last you 6 months depending on how much you get on it. The meth kicks in around 11lbs of boost for me progressively. I use the location of my coolant overflow tank for my meth tank. I highly suggest you check out the kits that are offered for our thirdgens at www.alkycontrol.com Julio makes a great kit and will even customize it for you, if need be.