Hey ladys and gentles, Broke crank going to ohio from maryland. Snapped off clean in front of the timing chain. Want to replace motor but use the Ram Jet intake and bump boost to 20- 30. Crazy but what is a motor that I could buy or what is the type of motor word for word do I need...Found a 427 sb chevy....but I see alot of 383...trying to keep cost resinable.....Any places to check or motor choices...

 

Are you currently running boost? Budget? Of course bigger is better, 383 is the best bang for your buck I guess.

Call your local reputable race engine building shop.

 

You could have bought my 9:1 CR Dart blocked 406 SBC that would be a perfect boosted motor.. The sale is pending but I'm almost positive its a "dun deal". If not I'll post up.

 

Well yes I am, but not at the time it broke....only 10lb pulley now, Budget is mid to low, don't want junk but want something I can drive on powertour, or if I want to increase the boost to 20 it will hold....I drive the car just not 1/4 mile it....sometimes 3000 mile trips.....crazy but true

 

that sounds awesome, well did you build it or get it assembled.
It would be nice to check it out even thou you might have sold it!

Know of any web sites, I that quote of 5k for a 427 is from my speed shop..

 

I bought the parts (Dart block , Pro-Topline 235cc heads w/comp valvetrain, ferrea valves, promagnum rockers, Eagle 6" rods w/L19 rod bolts, Eagle 4340 crank, Doug Herbert solid roller, ARP everything) and had Duffin Engine here in town assemble the motor. The guy who is buying my engine has the same turbo setup I do.. he'll be putting down 700HP on super unleaded @ 10# boost. I was running E85 but never dyno'd it.

I'm in San Antonio, not really much you can do to check it out... I'll know by Wed if its sold or not.

-Alex

 

A 383 will be much cheaper than a big block. Why not start with your 350?

30 psi is an awful lot. 20 is high too. Thats at least 900hp with a poor motor. You'd never be able to use that on the street! I found 700hp pretty much unuseable. You're gonna need some real high quality parts.

383backinblack has a high boost 383 F1-r procharger. I think hes running boost in the mid 20's.
You got quoted 5k on a 427 from a speed shop? Is that for an assembled short block? What parts? Thats a pretty good price. I paid 3k for my 383 shortblock, cam installed and degreed.

 

Hey boss, the 427 is a small block with ceramic forged pistons, h-beam rods and a crank-steel I believe, can't remember the name.....This was a short block, no heads or cam....I wanted to use my ram jet intake still and 1 3/4 SLP headers, with 3inch exhaust.....and areomotive fuel pump.....I found one at JEGS for 1900, 383 bottom end all forged......

 

That is bad ***, the 427 I looked at was a small block and big money, the boost is whatever I can get, I just want to have a good bottom end. I may go to the track once or twice, but I work on the road and the car sets most the time....where did the motor come from, and what it cost you.....

 

what do you mean where did it come from? It came from the machine shop to my twin turbo camaro? I'll keep you posted if the deal doesnt work out, but you'll be a few spots down on the list. I will know this week.

 

candy burple rs,

What power adder are you running? I had a Procharger and the same thing happened to me. I think it was a combination of their long and heavy crank pulley spacer along with the required belt tension. If you rebuild i would suggest spending the extra money and getting a small block crank with a big block front snout. This would require modification to the timing chain cover. I've seen guys run a alum. front cover with the seal bore machined out for the big block seal. This would eliminate any fears of this happening again.

 

Sorry must of read to fast, was trying to get out the door and respond. So you bought the pieces and they assembled....Why the change out from what you had to what you have now?

Thats cool with keeping me informed, I'm just trying to get some numbers(prices) quaility parts that should be in there for charger boost i'm looking for which is probably to much... Thanks for the hit back---Daniel

 

Candy, if you're a veteran to the whole boost and performance area you should know that a low to mid range budget will get you mid to low range reliability and performance. Spend the money on a nice forded rotating assembly such as Callies, Crower, etc. I spent the money on a competition Eagle setup (4340 mat'l, H-beam rods, SRP pistons, etc) and I know I'll be playing with fire going above 15psi on a F1A this spring. Do the 4 bolt block, ditch the 3 center main caps for a Milidon set, ARP studs where you can and call it a day, go to bed with ease of mind knowing you're not going to launch internals through your oil pan.

 

I agree with 92Z, the best thing I've seen for that problem is to get a crank with a big block snout. I've seen fluid dampers rip in half and crack from a 671 supercharger, until the engine was rebuilt with a big snout. there have been no more issues down there, now the block is cracked 11'' long horizontal from a water jacket blowing out.

 

If you want to run over 15psi I think you really need a big block crank snout, unless you aren't using cog pulleys. Cog setups don't absorb much shock.

 

Can you explain the COG PULLEYS, not fimiliar with that....
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Late night huh, question is that you whole motor you have discribed for me? what type of boost are you running with it, do you agree on the large snot on the small block crank or is yours doing ok.....thats a D-1 charger right

 

Candy, I was a combo of both possiblity and my setup. I didn't have the funds at the time to go with Crower and Callies parts. Those 2 companies have alot of clout. I went with an Eagle Competition setup. Basically forged everything and H-beam rods. My motor ran great this season. I tore it down and am parting everything out except the rotating assembly. I basically only have my 383 block for sale now. The motor "was" built for 8.7:1 compression and would have easily supported 15+psi. I found that I couldn't get more than 7PSI for a number of reasons both of my own fault (slipped intake gaskets) and the fact that Procharger themselves told me my motor might actually breath too well for a P1SC. Now I'm in the midst of building another engine. Dart Pro1 alum heads, same rotating assembly, simliar 4 bolt block and a F1 procharger. F1's are 2 steps above my last blower and 1 step above a D1.
As far as SBC snout vs. BBC snout that is a new concept to me. I didn't even know that was an option. Mechanically speaking a BBC snout is thicker (larger O.D.) and would theoretically support more force. If you're doing a daily driver and know you'll be pushing 15+ psi then I would probably have to agree with the BBC snout. My ride, I put 5000 torturous miles on my stock 350 with 8lbs of boost and 1200 miles of 7 or less psi on my 383. No issues to report.

 

I've seen two guys on here that were running around 22 psi and broke the crank off. One was with an F1. He also was running a 6-speed trans though, automatic would be a lot easier on parts there.

Cog pulleys are like a gear and mate with the belt for no slip, as opposed to serpentine belt type. A serpentine belt will slip under abrubt changes but are only so grippy. I don't recall ever seeing any setups above 15 psi running a standard belt.

 

I AM IN THE PROCESS OF BUILDING A SMALL BLOCK FOR AN F2. I WENT WITH A CROWER CRANK WITH A BB SNOUT. BUT IF YOU ARE ON A BUDGET ATI BALANCER SELL'S A DOUBLE KEYWAY BALANCER HUB THAT IS THE THICKNESS OF A BIG BLOCK CHEVY. ON A SMALL BLOCK BALANCER THE KEYWAY IS VERY THIN AND WEAK AND CAN CRACK AND DESTROY YOUR CRANK. THIS HUB REQUIRES A TIMING COVER WITH A BIG BLOCK SEAL. YOU CAN BUY THE COVER FROM ATI OR CLOYES. ALSO A COG SET UP PUT'S LESS STRESS ON YOUR CRANK BECAUSE IT REQUIRES LESS BELT TENSION TO WORK. A SERP BELT REQUIRES MORE TENSION TO LIMIT SLIPPAGE THUS MORE STRESS ON YOUR CRANK.

 

Less belt tension is true. Never heard it put that way, but could be right. Where did you hear/read that?

More stress on the crank itself perhaps, but less on the hub where its weak I would imagine.

 

AS FAR AS THE HUB YOU CAN GET THE INFORMATION AT WWW.ATIRACING.COM JUST DOWNLOAD THE CATALOG. AS FAR AS THE BELT TENSION PROCHARGER TOLD ME THAT THE COG SETUP IS EASIER ON THE CRANK BECAUSE THE BELT DOES MORE OF THE WORK AS WHERE A SERP BELT DOESN'T HAVE RIB'S SO IT RELY'S MORE ON TENSION TO CARRY THE LOAD.

 

Well before you buy anything, PM 383backinblack. He was running an F1 at 22 psi or so and busted his. If you plan on running that high. I can't remember if he had the single or dual keyways though.

 

I am planning on running 20psi with the f2. The crank I bought is a Crower Enduro crank with the dual keyway and the bb snout. The only other insurance step I am taking is buying an ATI balancer with the Chrysler 6 bolt front. Hopefully that will eliminate pulley flex. All that being said It is still possible to break the snout. I just hope I put the odd's in my favor.

 

OGIE, that info was good on my part thanks, every little bite helps cause I still want to run it on the POWERTOUR this year coming.... You said you ordered that crank like that, could I ask what the price was looking like to your door, or do they sell bottoms where you got it....That as out of ohio you got that crank huh...I have a buddy bout 25 mins from CROWER where I broke the crank lol. That web site that you told other dude is something I want to look at huh.....1 more thing the procharger cog set up was what $ and does it come for a D-1 that I have.....

 

Hey candy burple rs, I bought my crank from crower for $1600 plus $100 for shipping. Crower was the only company that carried a 400 crank 400 main for a 5.7 rod. You could buy a crank from Howards crankshaft for $1300. If that doesn't fit into the budget you could try the bb balancer hub from ATI. But it wont be as strong as if you had a bb snout crank. I am not sure of the price for the cog belt setup for your d-1. You can call superchargers4less.com They are the cheapest that I have found. Keep us posted on your progress.
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Description Price 353557-4Howards, Pro Series 4340 Crank, Chev SB w/BB Snout, 3.500Chev SB w/Big Block Snout, Added Feature: Double Keyways, 350 Main, 3.500" Stroke, 5.700" Rod$1,279.95

 

Howards, Pro Series 4340 Crank, Chev SB w/BB Snout, 3.750Chev SB w/ Big Block Snout, Added Feature: Double Keyways, 350 Main, 3.750" Stroke, 6.000" Rod$1,279.95



353860-4Howards, Pro Series 4340 Crank Chev SB w/BB Snout, 3.875Chev SB w/ Big Block Snout, Added Feature: Double Keyways, 350 Main, 3.875" Stroke, 6.000" Rod$1,239.95



354060-4Howards, Pro Series 4340 Crank, Chev SB w/BB Snout, 4.000Chev SB w/ Big Block Snout, Added Feature: Double Keyways, 350 Main, 4.000" Stroke, 6.000" Rod$1,279.95



403760-4Howards, Pro Series 4340 Crank, Chev SB w/BB Snout, 3.750Chev SB w/ Big Block Snout, Added Feature: Double Keyways, 400 Main, 3.750" Stroke, 6.000" Rod$1,279.95



403860-4Howards, Pro Series 4340 Crank, Chev SB w/BB Snout, 3.875Chev SB w/ Big Block Snout, Added Feature: Double Keyways, 400 Main, 3.875" Stroke, 6.000" Rod$1,279.95



404060-4Howards, Pro Series 4340 Crank, Chev SB w/BB Snout, 4.000Chev SB w/ Big Block Snout, Added Feature: Double Keyways, 400 Main, 4.000" Stroke, 6.000" Rod$1,239.95



404260-4Howards, Pro Series 4340 Crank, Chev SB w/BB Snout, 4.250Chev SB w/ Big Block Snout, Added Feature: Double Keyways, 400 Main, 4.250" Stroke, 6.000" Rod$1,299.95

 

Ogie, whats the difference on the 1600 via 1300 from Howards,,,same thing huh...
I will keep you in touch boss, working the weekend and fix a short in the fuel pump main wire( the orange one) hit the headers on my 87 3.4(2.8)MPFI Camaro....Then the tear down begins lol

Now do they sell a full rotating assembly, what block and other stuff you using...You might have told me, I'll check other messages

 

Hey Candy Burple rs, The only difference between the crank's are the name.Crower cost's more because they are more well known. Im not sure if howard's sell's full rotating assembly's or not but Scat or Eagle rod's should work if they don't. And piston choice's are endless. I'm in the process of building my new motor. It's a 400 little m block,crower enduro crank with the bb snout,eagle h beam rod's with 9/16 rod bolt's,je 8.5:1 blower piston's, hellfire steel ring's,AFR 227 competition heads, jesel rocker's, Steve Morris special grind camshaft, super victor intake, CSU blow through 1000 cfm carb,lemon 2.25 inch header's and topped with an F2 . It is going into my 89 T/A. Hopefully I don't have many issues with the set up other than the normal little stuff. I plan to run a snow performance meth injection kit on the car because i'm not sure how efficient the intercooler would be. I also am planning on only running the F/2 at the track and when I cruise on the street I plan on taking off the blow through carb and running a 750 vac secondary carb. I really haven't seen to many people able to get a good street setup with a blowthrough and an F/2. I'm not saying it can't be done I just don't want the headache of figuring it all out. Hopefully the tear down go's smooth and you don't encounter any problem's. Please keep us posted on your progress!

 

I run a D1R on a serpentine belt set-up seeing 28+ psi (a couple of times off the chart on the 3-Bar MAP), but the belt routing is significantly changed from what is normally run. If you can get 330° or more belt wrap on the blower pulley and run MIS, you can definitely get into the higher boost pressures with the larger step-up ratio ProCharger head units (i.e. D1R, D2R, F1R, F2, etc).

I will also say that cog drives are very rough on the gears in the transmissions on these blowers. I still have the cog but chose to go back to serpentine, as it is more forgiving.

Food for thought.
Aaron

 

AKS, you have a pic of such belt routing? I was going to try and utilize a International (18 wheeler) auto tensioner but am curious to see your setup. I ditched the P1SC in hopes of going D1SC or F1 this spring.

 

Mine is not on a Camaro/TA, so I am not sure if the pic would help. Let me know if you want pics, and I will show what ATI recommended vs what I run. Though ATI never intended for the D1R / D2R to be in a C4 chassis.
Aaron

 

I figured I might as well post this up.

Original configuration for a D1 Procharger (similar to the designed mount for the R series D or F).


This is the custom mount that I made, with integral stregthening rib on the backside.


One downside is that you actually have to remove the idler assy to remove / change the belt. The belts are actually twisted higher than shown in the photo, and when installed, have less that 1/8" between the belt "coming" and "going".


Here is the unit installed.


I know the bracket is not the same as what you will need, but maybe you get the general idea. I have built many other brackets that are similar in concept for other head units in other applications.
Aaron

 

I know cog belts can be rough on the transmissions so i thought I would post this product from ATI performance to help remedy that.http://www.atiperformanceproducts.co...lley/index.htm

 

AKS, that things is the *****!! I just made my first blower bracket (a duplicate of the P1SC bracket) and I was SO suprised how easy it was. I think it might be pretty easy to still incorporate an auto tensioner from the big rigs and achieve a nice belt wrap. I'll probably have to drop the location of the head unit and get a longer belt. This would certainly be the route I go if I choose a F1 over the D1SC.

Back to the thread, those cranks that were all listed use 6" rods? That means shorter skirt pistons as well. I've been told that short skirt pistons are not as friendly for piston ring / oil ring life than 5.7" rod pistons. Is this true? Other than that, this is all great info for guys that are thinking of higher than 14 PSI IMO.

 

Yes AC you are exactly correct. The 6.0 rod does tend to move the piston pin higher thus affecting ring placement.Another drawback of the 6.0 rod is the longer dwell time at Top dead center. Unlike naturally aspirated car's that benefit from a longer dwell time at tdc(more complete burn) supercharged car's benefit from a shorter dwell time at tdc. So a 5.7 rod would be ideal. Unfortunately crank manufacturer's are only focusing on the naturally aspirated market and going away from building crank's for 5.7 rod's. I found crower still has some crank's for 5.7 rod's wich is what I bought. But If you are on a budget and your choice is bb crank snout with a 6.0 rod or sb crank snout for a 5.7 rod . I would choose the bb snout 6.0 rod 100% of the time on a supercharged engine. the ++ outweigh the --.

 

Ogie,
I am not sure if you have seen one of the ATI sprags in person, but they are quite heavy. Another issue is that unless you run one of the larger head units, it is near impossible to run the sprag due to the lowest tooth size being a 45, which will not allow one to approach MIS with the smaller head unit step-up ratios. The sprag concept is good, just know that there are some limitations.

Keep this in mind as you design your complete system.
Aaron

 

I agree with these statements.

Also, it is tough to get the correct dish when using a 6" rod in a low SCR application for anything larger than a 350CID due to the required ring stack. I tried to get a 6" rod when I built mine, but there was no way to make it work and wound up using a 5.875" rod.
Aaron

 

I experienced that with my 383, the pistons that were found to make even 9:1 ended up being a little expensive.

 

Thank's for the head's up Aaron. I have not seen one of these ATI sprag's in person. I got the info from a guy on yellow bullet. But I could see them being a problem if they are heavy. Also I should have specified that they can only be used on bigger supercharger's I think F1 and up. I will need to research this some more. If you know of anybody that run's this sprag set up i would like to know what they think of it. I was planning on buying this set up for my F2 .

 

I know several people who are running this sprag set-up on purpose built race cars that have the larger 2 series ProCharger blowers. They seem to like them on the race cars, although they complain about the additional mass that has to be "spun up".

There is another gent that is producing a smaller diameter sprag that is currently being tested on a 347 w/ D1. The smaller diameter lets him get down to a 30 tooth cog which will allow a much broader range of application (read as for the smaller head units with the smaller SURs). The smaller sprag is completely modular which means that you can change the tooth count while retaining the original sprag drive.

I would like to give one a try with a serp style to try on my D1R (instead of going through the work to re-install the cog drive), but he has yet to offer any availability. He is still testing.
Aaron

 

Thank's for the insight Aaron. I now have a bit more information as wether to purchase the ATI sprag. I only plan on running the F2 at the track so that should make my decision a little easier. Thank's again!

 

Why only at the track? An F2 could be fun on the street.

 

Hey Aaron, This is my first motor running a supercharger as I have alway's been a N20 kind of guy. I see that turbo and supercharging is the way of the future for going fast. So after alot of thought I am making the switch. But I feel that I don't have enough tuning experience with blow through carbs to keep an effective street tune up. My goal is to put my T/A well into the eight's and still be able to cruise to a car show every now and then. Unfortunately I will have to run 2 seperate carb's until I am more familiar with blow through's. If you have any tip's I would appreciate them. Thank's

 

Run a CSU carb, they are great carbs, and the low speed circuits is setup the best, meaning best streetability. It would be the only carb you need. Their customer service is also fantastic.

 

Thank's Batass, CSU is who is doing my carb conversion. I think it was Keith that I talked with about it. I will give them a call today and ask him about it . I hadn't really discussed it with him(street driving) because I really didn't think it would be feasible. I will let you know what they say. Thank's

 

Not much advice from a carb tuning perspective in FI applications, but if you wish to pursue fuel injection on a large blower/turbo application, BS3 is the way to go.

I have run FAST, DFI, and BS3, and BS3 is by far the best approach when going for big power. BS3 has dual wbO2s, control 16 injectors, tranny control, traction control, and the ability to tune more than just 3-bar. That is just the tip of the advances for BS3. I feel certain that when either Accel of FAST come out with their next iteration of aftermarket ECMs, they will also incorporate many of these advancements.
Aaron

 

Thank's again Batass and Aaron. I called CSU carbs and talked with Kevin. He said that he could modify my carb for $1150. He said that with the boost I am planning on running i will need dual needle and seat float bowls and the rest of the modification will be normal stuff. I asked if I would be able to run the carb naturally aspirated and Kevin said I could it will just run a little fat at wide open throttle. He then asked ironically why i would not be running the F2 on the street. I said that I was hesitant about driving on the street with methanol injection and no intercooler. He told me not to worry that's what they modify the carbs to be able to do. So thank's for all the input problem solved. Now on to the next question. Has anybody run a Race Pumps mechanical piston pump. I would like to run one of these on my car but have yet to see anyone running one on there car. I know the Aeromotive 1000 pump seem's to be the way to go but I don't like how loud big electric pump's tend to be. I know I should start a new thread to ask this question but since I am already here i will roll the dice.

 

My A1000 is really loud, but I don't have any carpet and the pump is mounted metal to metal. Some rubber bushings and carpet I hear will quiet it down a lot.