anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I've been doing a lot of reading lately.

I have a 400 block on the stand all done up ready to go. Bored .060" over, forged crank, eagle rods, forged reverse dome pistons (-16.2cc), etc.

No heads or camshaft yet, no torque converter.


In another pile, I have some 1 3/4" long tube headers, a performer 750 carb, a performer intake, accessories, water pump.

And on a trailer I have the car, a new TH350.


I had been thinking of a few different things.

1) I was thinking of some RHS 72cc heads (9.5:1 comp), a hyd-roller cam (280XFI - 230/236 on 113/109 degrees), and a Weiand 177 blower. However reading documentation on the forum here, and on Weiand's website the 177 can support about 475hp, and is meant more for hot 350 engines.

2) Looked at running the same cam and heads (9.5:1 comp), with a blow-through S-trim blower. (carb). Camquest seems to think the combo will make 510hp, 536 foot lbs.

3) Looked at running some RHS 64cc heads (10.2:1 comp), a hyd-roller cam (XR286HR 230/230 on 110/106 degrees), naturally aspirated. Camquest seems to think the combo will make 500hp, 516 foot lbs.

Based on these scenarios, the Weiand is pretty much off the table, and the blow through S-trim seems to not be worth the additional cost over NA.

For another scenario, which would cost something between a Naturally aspirated RHS head setup, and a S-trim we can exchange the RHS heads for a pair of AFR 195 eliminators

4) AFR 195cc 'eliminator' 65cc port (10.1:1 comp), a hyd-roller cam (XR282HR 230/236 on 110/106 degrees), naturally aspirated. Camquest seems to think the combo will make 511hp, 513 foot lbs.

The XR282HR has faster ramps than the XR286, but a little less lift. Given the choice, I'd probably run the XR282 with 1.6 rockers vs the XR286 with 1.5 rockers.

But anyhow. The point here is, I can't seem to find an economical justification of going with a blower on this 412 combo.. I was kind of expecting to see the simulators peg 550+hp out of a S-trim..

I chose an S-trim in these scenarios because of cost. S-trims can be had for $800-1000 used all day. Brackets are easy to fabricate, and carb hats are $100. $1200 or so for a blow through setup, vs $1200 or so for a used weiand supercharger.


If we play with a weiand 671 for example, we can make close to 600hp however between the cost ($2500 or so) of a 671 setup, and the fact that it sticks about 11" out of the hood is a turn off.

-- Joe

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

hp/tr all beiing close n/a vs an s trim. Id say it comes down to what do you want.
As you said you can make the brackets and stuff. why not spend a little more and go ysi/d1/novi 2000, or something along those lines.

then again a 6or871 always looks bad a$$ sticking out the hood of anything.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Been doing a lot more reading, and blow through carb seems to be a tuning nightmare.

Is there a smaller blower than a 671 (roots) that will make close to 600hp?

Like I said, I was looking at the weiand 177s but it seems they target the 500hp range and I can do that naturally aspirated..

I kind of figured this thread would get a few more hits.


If I was going EFI with the car I'd probably go with a bigger centrifigul blower for sure, but when you consider the cost involved with a full EFI swap on a carbed car (1979) it kind of puts me into the "I cant justify this" category.


-- Joe

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

Ya, Im shocked this gedding get more hits either.

As for blow thru carbed. Never messed with carbed motors So I dono. I know there are people who swear its just as easy to tune a blowthru over on yellowbullet .com

I dono know of anything between a 177 and 671

tequilaboy

Whipple has some blowers capable of big HP. W200R 300-900 HP. W305R 800-1500 HP.

http://www.whipplesuperchargers.com/...sp?ProdID=1229

Here's an interesting article with some details and pricing info:
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te...ild/index.html

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

I guess that's all I was getting at.

You're saying 400 plus foot pounds of torque at 5500?? That's pretty darn good. Maybe it's because I'm a rookie, but I've never had much success making the kind of "real world" numbers those programs claim "you should" be making.

Personally, I have found that with my 400, I never seem to make the HP I want, but end up making more torque than I ever expect. For instance, with only 5 pounds of boost, I manage 492 ft. pounds of torque at less than 2800 rpm's to the wheels. But my HP was weaker than I had hoped ...376 RWHP which peaked at 5000 RPM's. So.....it's far from optimal, and most likely due to my smallish 650 carb, and I still run a CAT....(I'm working that out lol)

-But even with so little HP, it's a hand full on the street as it is due to the torque!! -That's really the magic of these roots blowers.

And yes, the cam is a retro-roller cut on a small base circle. PM or email me if your really interested.

EDIT: btw, Thnx for the reply on my other post.

flrtin1

Holley has the 250.....it is the old B&M like my 420..... http://www.holley.com/77-250CSBP-1.asp

badbilly

if ya go with a blow thru they are simple. one of our csu carbs needed 1 jet size up and was perfect!!! go with an f1r or f2. the d1 will run out of blower with that cubic inch i think

AutoRoc

iTrader: (1)

umm....hello old thread...hahaha

Procharger info off the top of my head..

D1 can support 800+hp
F1 is good for over 1000
F1R is good for 1200'ish
F2 is good for 1400+hp...


Personally... I'd aim for 10.0+ compression with those smaller chamber heads.
Spend trhe money in the heads and valvetrain. I'd do AFR 210 Eliminators. Have Bullet Racing grind you a custom hyd. roller cam. It will probably be on a 110 LSA with 24X/24X duration .6XX lift and all will be golden. Sell your carb and buy a custom built Pro Systems (look em up) holley carb. Roughly $600, it is built FOR your engine specs and will be perfect right out of the box, for both driving and racing. Money well spent.

I see 550hp N/A, driveable. 3500rpm stall torque converter minimum.. I suggest one from Precision Industries, Yank, PTC, or Ultimate Converter Concepts. You get what you pay for here....

I'm not a fan of these setups that make 3-6 lbs of boost. Ugly roots blower, no hood clearance, lame power gains.. Hassle but no happiness.

Goodluck!!!

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Haha, yeah little old

Going blough through, afr 195 75cc. Cam is an XR288HR.. I believe batass has a similar combo with a 383 same cam, putting down over 600hp.

For the weight of my heavy 2nd gen, I need between 650-700hp to reach my goal, which means either a Vortech at max efficient impeller speed, or twin T3 turbos.

On the fence about pro systems, csu, carb shop, etc. If I'm gonna drop $900 on a carb, just go EFI.. Carb is economical when I own one, which I have a handful, but none of which would work blow-through. Once we start approaching the $1000 mark, the benefits of EFI start to chime in over the cost of converting.

I'm more than likely going to break the motor in with a 750 carb and naturally aspirated (leave blower belt off), so I can get a baseline. The twin turbo idea sounds great, lot of guys in the 10s and even 9s on cheap turbos but the plumbing sort of freaks me out. One of the reasons I ditched the vette was because of how tight stuff is under the hood.

-- Joe

z28freak84

if your really gonna boost this thing, then u need to put the biggest AFR's on it that you can afford. AT LEAST the 210, 227 better, 235 if u really wanna play. Also if u Vortech it, then NO LESS than a T-trim, preferrably a YSi. Procharged... then no less than a D1.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Actually 195s are the best bet and I'll explain why.

For sub 2500 rpm operation, especially on a centrifugal motor you need to have low speed torque to move the car otherwise it will feel like a stone. An AFR 195 head flows around 280cfm at .550 lift, and has excellent port velocity numbers do to the smaller cross sectional area of the 195 port. So it provides you ample flow at higher RPM, but gives you great off idle performance. A 210 is a 'reasonable' step up, but will suffer on the low end. Around town before boost kicks in the car will feel sluggish. I speak with AFR a few times a week, and get get you a good deal on heads if you are ever interested.


Regarding blowers. I sort of agree. The s-trim, I've run before, and have made over 550hp with it on it's bleeding edge. This was with really crappy sportsman II heads, on a 9:1 motor. I think it's 650hp capable with good heads, although I'd rather run a t-trim. sort of.

The s-trim makes more boost down low, less up top. T-trim makes tons of boost at higher impeller speeds, but is soft down low.

-- Joe

AC

iTrader: (3)

Joe, I can't believe you're really not considering the EFI route here. There's a number of factors; a 2nd gen with EFI has "cool factor" IMO, you have TONS of experience already with EFI, you have TONS of experience with Vortech's and other centrifugal blowers. The heads you've chosen I agree will be a nice supercharged street head. I almost went that route but did Dart Pro1 200's instead.

Subscribed.

z28freak84

No way... needs at least a 210. you have 413 INCHES... thats more low-end than you will ever hook on the street. a 195 would be good on 350 and nothing bigger. 210 on a 383 and 227 on a 400+ and 235 on a 434ci.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Don't be silly. I have a carb on the shelf to break the motor in with. When I see a singleplane EFI on ebay or the forum for a song, It will be in a shipping box on the way to me. I'm just not going to buy all the stuff new.

If I have to run the car naturally aspirated for a month or however it long it takes to get the EFI stuff, I will. It's just what I own, vs what I need to buy. To me the EFI goes hand in hand with the blower/turbo/whatever I use. For breaking the motor in, I'll use the carb.. Probably only be on there for a week or two. I priced out my complete list if I were to go with the holley singleplane again (ran it twice before), and it's like $1800 new. I can wait and part it together for like $800 used.

Dart is good too. My wholesale price on AFR's is about $300 cheaper than summit, which is still cheaper than Dart so..

-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Start putting down the technical reasons why, and lets talk about it.


-- Joe

z28freak84

why do you need an extra 20 lb-ft in the low rpms. ITs A STREET car... the torque is useless on the street when you cant go over half-throttle. The extra power up top IS useable once u get hooked. My stock 5.0 mustang has more than enough low end. and if you're using a 3000-3500 converter, then everything below that is pointless anyway. you need to make as much power as you can between 4000 and 6500-7000.

badbilly

if you have a carb, kevin @ csu will make it blow thru for like $400. if that helps in the decision.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Few things..


Your stock 5.0 mustang, much like the one I'm building right now ('90 GT, and yes I do fords too) weighs 3000lbs.. My 2nd gen weighs 3800lbs. So leaving a light, a little more low end is better.

Next top end, I'm not spinning anywhere near 7000rpm. The retrofit lifters are heavy, and the ramps aggressive (although not as much as solid). Combined with a supercharger, which puts an extra 8-20psi on the valve (taking away from spring), leads to all sorts of problems at high rpm. Motor will shift at 5800-6000 rpm.

So since we're looking for low rpm power, a shift rpm of around 6,000, we don't want heads that sacrifice low end for top end performance.

2500rpm converter, TH350.

In a 400 block, cam is DONE at 6,000, and by 6,500 you started going way backwards.

At 2,000 RPM we're making 400 foot lbs. With a larger head it would come in closer to 350-370 foot lbs around 2,000-2500 rpm.



-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Yeah but not to an AFB

I think he's converting holley's, and removing chokes and all that.


A blow through carb sounds great until you introduce winter

-- Joe

AC

iTrader: (3)

I didn't think you were dealing with parts anymore, I should have bought them from you. I bought bare castings and built them myself. I only subcontracted the bowl work and valve seat cutting. I didn the porting and assembly myself. Oh well, I'll look you up now when I build the 434

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I'm torn myself. Shop is closed and all that, I've moved to a different state, so I have no intention of starting another race shop. However, I like to leave doors open. Not actively selling anything, but if a friend or forum member needs something and doesn't want to get bent over from summit, I'll hook them up. If it was someone local paying cash, I'd resell them and make a few bucks. For a friend/forum member, I'd let them by direct at my discount (and pay direct).

But anyway, moral of the story is I can get AFR heads for what trickflows used to cost me, so it's a no brainer now.

-- Joe

badbilly

ya drivin a blown v8 during the winter????? damn!!!! u tha man!!!! call kavin see what he can do with an afb, not sure what they do. and autoroc..... old thread, sure grew legs, gfy

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

When I had started the thread I was a little undecided. Generally speaking, 500hp is just peachy for the street.

However, after buying the 2nd gen I realized how much more it weighs, and takes at least 100hp to turn the same trap speeds in the 1/4. Lame.

Turbo is the fastest route, guys with twins in 2nd gens go 9s.. However the plumbing is a bit of a nightmare, and the car has new headers and dual exhaust so I'm not sure I want to start that mess.

We shall see. I'm toying with ideas. looking for input, and checkout out other folks combinations.

-- Joe

badbilly

here ya go!!!! 355 sbc, twin 76's, 7.70's@170!!!!!

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

So I was talking to my machinest today.

And he reminded me that my motor is a 400 block, with 2 bolt main caps.

And he said that if I put a blower on it, my crank is going to be on the ground halfway down the track.

He said I can "try" a main girdle, but he thinks it will blow up at over 500hp..

He said I should put splayed caps in it. I then reminded him that he should have brought that #$!@# up before I put the motor together..


-- Joe

badbilly

ya make a good point, but were ya plannin on makin lots of power with it before? if ya are goin that far get billet main caps too!!!

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Built the short block before I bought the car. Was planning on around 500hp.. Then I realized the car was so freaking heavy it will take 600+ to get the same trap speeds. lame.

Shoulda bought a first gen..

-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

I wouldn't do it bro. Was planning on building twins for awhile now, but after seeing countless cars at the track running deep into the nine's with single turbo's, at almost 3800 pounds, w/way under 300 cubic inches, there is absolutely no way that I would ever do twins now, especially with a small block. It is so unneccessary. You will dominate with a single T-76, as well as a F1 procharger. On another note, check out this CTS-V w/just 16 pounds of boost on an essentially stock motor. Then check out the Rockets procharged vette with about the same amount of boost. Warning, you will get a rise....

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/T...d-V_723103.htm

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/A...ack_723341.htm

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/T...tco_723516.htm

z28freak84

thats because you're using cam and heads meant for a 350ci....

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Not really.

Heads don't matter. The AFR 195s flow more than most 200+ cc heads. The size of the runner has no real impact on it's flow.

Secondly, any bigger cam and it won't have enough vac. I could go with a solid roller that would make power until 7k, but I don't want to run a 5,000 rpm stall converter.



-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

You are right.. Lots of go fast cars with singles.


Right now I'm concerned about the bottom end.. Don't wanna take the block apart to splay the mains, and I doubt a girdle is going to help much.. Some time spent on google, machinest appears to be right. These 400 blocks like to drop the crank right on the pavement.. wtf.


-- Joe

z28freak84

this is exactly why your stuff runs out of breath. its not just about flow. you have to have enough cross sectional area to support your cubic inch and rpm.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

That is a Dart argument.

Software simulation has no idea what the cross sectional area is, only the port flow yet the software is dead nuts on with the powerband. The AFR 195cc head is unlike any other 195cc head, it is really fine for a 400 cid application. This is the eliminator head, not the older 195 head that flowed more like a TFS 195 head.

Actually, if you use Engine analyzer, and enter cross sectional area of a 1205 port it assumes it's a 180cc runner. Cross sectional area is only useful for calculating velocity once you know flow numbers.

The larger heads are only available in a 1206 intake port, which, for one kills low speed performance, and two there is not many off the shelf intakes that are 1206 and 90% of the people who port their intakes to a 1206 screw up the port shape anyway.


-- Joe