Yesterday I started the car for the first time with the B&M 144. Couldn't get it to stay running long enough for me to time it. Most of the time it would it would backfire and immediately stop the motor. Well today I was able to time it with my friend just turning it over, but still it doesn't want to stay running. While checking bolt torque I found a piece of the base gasket. Is this gasket designed to fail during a backfire?

Also how loud is the blower supposed to be? Its rather loud, maybe due to the blown gasket, but it had me a little worried.

 

I dont think the gasket is supposed to fail during a back fire, ive had numerous backfires with mine and a few nitrous backfires and the gasket is still intact. My blower is pretty much silent untill i give it some throttl, and even then theres only a slight whine. and when your tightning the blower to the manifold spin the pulley to make sure there is no binding

 

Agreed. Gasket pieces shouldn't come flying out with modest backfiring. And if you're missing a piece of that gasket it'll run like absolute crap. TIP: I install my blower-to-manifold gasket with a sprinkle of baby powder on both sides to prevent it from sticking so I can disassemble without destroying it.

My very similar 142 blower has some modest synchro gear noise at idle, especially when cold, less when warm. Make sure you've got enough oil in it!! There should be a sight glass on the front. You should be able to see the oil level about half way up it with the engine stopped.

DON'T over-torque the 4 big bolts that hold it to the intake manifold. SCREWDRIVER TIGHT ONLY. They're big and the temptation is to put a wrench on them, but if you overtighten you'll crash the lobes into the case when it warms up (ask me how I know). They are touchy in the extreme to over-torqueing.

Feel free to psot back as you work on it. I'll keep an eye on this post and try to help as much as I can.

What's the rest of the engine combo? Is it bolted on top of the stock GMPP 350/290HP crate motor in your sig?

 

Not trying to steal a thread, just curious how much power increase you got with the small blower, Damon???? They sure do look like a nice piece!!!!

 

Hi guys, Thanks for the fast response. I think the problem boilz down to the blown gasket. Not sure why its loose, I did use powder, haha medicated footpowder but should work the same. I also made sure not to over torque the big bolts beyond 10ft lbs. I think next time I'll oil the threads to make sure they seat all the way. My setup is slightly different in that I got the belt to run of off the factory serp belt, but that shouldn't make much difference should it? Well the gaskets due in tomorrow, so I'll find out in a couple of days.

Damon this is sitting on that goodwrench motor in the sig with a CC XE262 w/ 114 sep and AL roller rockers.

 

Trumps- that sounds like a good setup. Just keep it out of detonation and the factory cast pistons should last a good long while.

Radical- hard to say since the motor was built with a blower in mind- low compression, oddball cam choice that wouldn't work real well without a blower. I'd say around 100-125HP. One time I ran the engine with a standard intake (while having the blower rebuilt) and low end torque was WAY down despite turnign up the timing quite a bit. Like could hardly even spin the tires down. As the RPMs rose the gap closed, probably becuase these little blowers are so inefficient in the upper RPMs. With the blower on it makes about 470 at the crank around 5500. Without it I'm sure it would be down in the 375 range. The big difference is the low-mid RPM torque. I can spike over 520 ft/lbs AT THE REAR WHEELS with the blower (425 being more common in a steady-state pull over stall speed). And that torque is there from way too low in the RPM range to measure on a chassis dyno with an automatic trans.

Remember when they designed these blowers the idea was to take a "stock" 250HP engine and turn it into a 350HP engine with gobs of low end torque. You can pulley them up to do more but efficiency falls off quick. They're ideal for low-mid RPM torque production, however.

 

Thanks Damon, always wondered how well the little ones perform, sounds like they do quite well!!!!!

 

Hey Damon, I gotta a video I want you to take a look at. How do I post it, youtube?

I replaced the gasket and still have a leak, I don't understand. Also I want to confirm the sound the blower is making is a 'good' sound.

 

Ok now you can feel my pain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPyh4VQ462M

Forgot to add, reading my gauges, MAP reads 14"hg to 0"hg, full lean, and won't idle even with idle screw fully engaged.

 

Sounds way too loud to me. Mine has some whine from the sycro gears in the blower, but yours is 3-4X louder than mine.

If you remove the belt can you rotate the blower over by hand easily?

Did you plug the vacuum/boost port down on the lower intake manifold (assuming you don't have a boost gague hooked up to it)?

Don't know why it's so lean but I'm still thinking vacuum leak somewhere. Idling with the blower is almost identical to idling without one- it's like the blower almost isn't there at light throttle. My idle mixture and speed settings (QJet carb, non-computer controlled) are almost identical to what they were without the blower.

 

I thought it sounds loud, but I'm guessing its because of a vacuum leak. Is it the same sound just louder? Keep in mind I reved to 2500 to 3000 rpm.


[QUOTE=Damon;4326941]If you remove the belt can you rotate the blower over by hand easily?[\QOUTE]

Yes, turns easily.

[QUOTE=Damon;4326941]Did you plug the vacuum/boost port down on the lower intake manifold (assuming you don't have a boost gague hooked up to it)?[\QUOTE]

I have a MAP sensor and gauge connected via hose.

I haven't touched the carb settings yet, just the idle screw.

It doesn't make sense, putting it back together it felt solid on the manifold. Looking at the backfire soot from the manifold and blower it seemed as if the entire area was leaking. The cloud you see when it backfires can only be from a vacuum leak right?

 

It looks like at least some of it is coming out from between the bottom of the blower and the intake. That's where I'd start looking. You can spray something there while it's running and see if it affects the way it's running. I'm thinking something flammable but be careful! It shouldn't be backfiring like that either. What's your base timing set to? Also be careful with your carb jetting and total advance with this setup. I got in a rush on my 144 install and forgot to limit my total timing. I got about two hours out of it before I broke a ring land! I have to say though, it was a fun two hours!

 

I can't keep this thing idling. It is the manifold to blower gasket, but I don't know why. When I replaced the first gasket I could see the soot paterns from the base. I even went as far to torque the bolts to 15 ft/lbs.

 

Hmmmm.... sounds like something wasn't machined flat from the factory.

I'd bolt the blower down on the intake (lightly) with no gasket in place and go all around the perimeter with a thin feeler gague to figure out where things aren't flat against eachother. A straight edge on both surfaces while it's apart would probably be a worthwhile check as well.

On the cheap, a simple "wobble" test can diagnose somethign that's warped. Put the blower in place on the intake (bolts in to hold it in location, but not tightened down) and try to rock it corner to corner in both directions. I did this with mine and there is ZERO wobble.

I had a brand new Performer RPM intake last summer that was crooked as a dog's hind leg right out of the box. So improperly machined stuff can still get past QC.

 

Hmmm good idea. The blower is something I bought used. I had the manifold cleaned up and those yoyos glass beaded all the gasket mating surfaces. I took it to a 2nd shop and he recommended not resurfacing the gasket mating surfaces. I did do a wobble test like you recommended and no wobble. I was afraid my thermostat housing bolt was interfering, but I'm pretty sure its fine. I'll check with a feeler gauge and straight edge once it stops raining here. I'm thinking my fall back will be RTV? What do you think?

 

Somebody already mentioned vaccuum leak, which is my guess. Depending on how big of a leak it is it can be pretty loud, even at idling.

 

Hey guys, I've been busy the last few weeks house hunting, but I was able to look at it today. I checked the straight edge of the manfiold and blower and bother seemed fine. Before I used the feeler gauge, I decided I didn't like Weiand's emissions water neck, so I removed it, installed the one I got with it and put the CTS in the manifold. After that I measured 0.010" of space between the front of the blower and the manifold and it looked like one corner was being 'proped' up. Now this blower was bought off Ebay in worn shape. The manifold has been helicoiled where the blower bolts and it looks like one in the front it causing the problem. So how do I remove it?

 

So you think there is a "tail" sticking up from one of the heli-coils preventing the blower from seating or do you think the water neck is holding things up?

I use a cheap chrome (Spectre?) smooth-top waterneck on mine and there are no clearance issues with the blower snout. Even something as simple as a hose clamp screw being oriented improperly could potentially casue problems. though.

 

I removed the thermostat housing for now and still it doesn't sit flat. I also trimmed one of the heli-coils, to no avail. I guess I'll try removing it and see what happens. If I painted dychem on the blower then set it down on the manifold would it leave the blue on the manifold? If not what would?

 

I'd look at it this way: at least you know why you blew the gaseket and have a vacuum leak now!

Anything that dries isn't going to work for marking. Once dry it won't transfer to another surface- it's designed to be there unless rubbed or scratched off by something. Simple surface contact probably won't work.

Maybe cheap water-based markers like kids use. The ink basically never dries (you know it gets all over everything if you have kids!) so it should work for trying to indicate where contact happens.

This is a case where I wish I could transport over the internet and see/touch things for myself. Something's out of whack, that's for sure.

 

Last weekend I had a chance to work on the car. I slipped a piece of paper between the front two bolts. After setting the blower on the manifold I was able to remove the paper, so the two front bolt holes on the manifold are raised somehow. I then used RTV gasket maker along with the correct gasket to seal it up.

This weekend I got a chance to start it. Its running far better, quieter and able to idle. Just my luck though, the water neck doesn't work with a normal gasket, so it was pouring coolant every where. I need to get an o-ring for it.

Thanks again guys for your help.

 

Just to tie up loose threads, no pun intended I pulled the blower, to get the car useable again. It didn't idle without plenty of throttle, didn't like any timing advance at idle, and when I attempted to time it the headers glowed red. I'm at a lose here, all the ports and the blower were sealed well with RTV, but I still got a little puff of smoke when it backfired.