Kendol

Your right about the discharge temp being much hotter at 20 psi than 5 psi. The most important part of the test result was how slowly the outlet air temp of the AWIC rose. The supercharger outlet air temp rose almost instantaneously and the AWIC temp rose VERY slowly. When I saw the SC outlet temp jump to 280* it took the AWIC outlet temp 20 seconds before I saw a measureable increase.

When I get the 10 gallon water tank I will take a datalog of the following:

Engine rpm
MAP (Boost/vacuum)
MAT (Manifold Air Temp)
ICAT (Intercooler Inlet Air Temp)
ICWT (Intercooler Water Temp)
Ambient Temp

I will perform some simple datalogs (50Hz sample rate) at light loads and at heavy loads to compare the difference. I'll do one with ambient temp IC water and another with 33*F ice water. This may help convince others that AAIC might work well but they don't have the flexibility an AWIC does.

Kendol

Even with a SC outlet temp of 500*, crunching the numbers:

Efficiency= (T2-T3)/(T2-T4)
T2 = blower outlet temp (280*)
T3 = Intercooler outlet temp (150*)
T4 = Intercooler water temp (125*)

E = (130)/(155) = 83.9%

83.9% = (500*-T3)/(500*-125*) =>
T3 = 500*-.839 (500*-125*) =>
T3 = 185.4* (Can you say cold?)

How about 33*F water?

83.9% = (500*-T3)/(500*-33*) =>
T3 = 500*-.839 (500*-33*) =>
T3 = 108.2* (Can you say really cold?)

All of this assumes a SC outlet temp of 500*F. Will it actually get that hot? We will see. Either way it's impressive.

Slush92RS

iTrader: (6)

Very impressive build...I'm really curious if you have any more detailed pictures of your fuel pump set-up and mounting under the back of that beast. I'm getting ready to put a D1SC blow-thru setup onto my 383 and will be using an A1000 as well. I've already ran 11.85 N/A with my current set-up using a intank Walbro, but i know it will need alot more fuel so the A1000 will cure that. Also, what sump (who makes it) is that installed on your tank? It almost looks like a custom piece as well.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I run a big 24x12x4.5" air-to-air and it can't come close to cooling like the air-to-water setup you have. Water setups have a big advantage over the air stuff. Using the air IC and water/alky I was seeing a 10*-20* over ambient temperature rise during 1/4 mile runs. The worst part was waiting in line with heat soak. The IAT was cooler at the end of the run even with boost. The setup is turbos so I have the air cleaners stuffed in the radiator support.

You did a nice job installing it too. I like that fact that you put sensors on there to datalog. I think that is one of most fun parts of messing with boost. That car is going to be a handful at the track.

Kendol

Thanks for the compliments. I made the sump for the fuel tank. I originally bought a Comp Engineering universal sump, but making it fit to the contours of the fuel tank was going to be a pain. I got some 16 guage sheet metal and, with a break, formed the sump you see in the pics above. I cut 6 2" diameter holes in the tank with a hole saw. I placed the sump over them and, using a Tig welder, zipped it all up.

daverr

iTrader: (1)

The benefit of 10 gallons of water is ablilty to absorb alot of heat yet carrying extra weight is never a benefit.

after reviewing your setup . I came to a conclusion that your setup is actually
a Air to Air intercooler (heat exchanger). you still rely on outside air to cool your IAT. Once your your water heats up u have to either

dump the water for fresh cold water

wait for your small heatchanger(compared to a typical aaic sized for your setup) to cool your water which harder to cool than air.

keep adding Ice (Air is free, ice is not)

kinda a pain on the street if u ask me.

awic are for race cars imo.

Kendol

Right now I am using (1) Aeromotive Eliminator fuel pump under the rear, but I have a second one going on in parallel before I dyno the car. As for pics on how I installed it, here you go:

Kendol

I am not going to dispute the ease of maintenance of an AAIC. They work well for what they are but, as I said earlier lack the flexibility of an AWIC. I would be willing to bet most AAIC would have a difficult time matching the efficiency of an AWIC as my test results showed with ambient temp water flowing through the core. As for it being an AAIC, I guess you could look at it that way, but that would only be half of the story. As for AAIC being better for the street.... maybe from a maintenance standpoint, but I have to ask, if AAIC are better for street cars why are most of the modern factory forced induction cars going to AWIC designs? They are more efficient and take up less space than AAIC designs do.

Kendol

As for adding weight with a 10 gallon tank, that's exactly what I wanted (besides it had to go somewhere). These cars have very little rear bias for weight transfer. Adding the tank with its weight directly over the rear tires, will help me put the power to the ground. The extra water capacity over the 3 gallon tank I tested earlier today should minimize the heat rise in the system and make it substantially more streetable.

I'm not going to sweat the extra weight (80 lbs). To be honest, the car has lost so much weight on the front end I can't even compress the front shocks with my own body weight. I suppose it will all even out in the end.

Kendol

Junkcltr--

If you want more pics of the system like the return, the connections at the fuel rails, or the fuel pressure regulator let me know. I'll go take some and fill in some of the blanks.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

You guys bring up some good points. The reason I went with the large AAIC was because I didn't want to have to maintain it. The water/alky went on to help lower the IATs even more. I use $1.50 gallon washer fluid because it is cheap. Together they do a good job. Using the earlier equation I think my setup comes out to almost 100% which surprised me.

I guess the ideal setup is AWIC and AAIC in series. The thing I like about the AWIC is at the track you can bring the temps down way more than the AAIC. That to me gives it the winning advantage.

Kendol

Exactly! That was the point I was trying to make.

daverr

iTrader: (1)

the downside of the flexibility of your awic is added weight and maintenance.
u would be surprised how well a properly designed aaic could do.
your ambient temp water flowing thru your intercooler will gradually rise in temp because your intercooler is bigger than your heat exchanger.how does that work for your efficiency???

Most production cars that use awic are supercharged positive displacement(gt500, e55 amg).Ford did use a air to air intercooler on their supercharged v6.Turbo production cars however use air to air .

Kendol

I would also like to point out I'm using alky injection as well. I have two spray nozzles, one spraying into the SC impeller inlet and the other right before the TB on the manifold. That will be the icing on the cake when it comes to dropping the MATs.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I forgot you had N2O on it too. That will cool better than water/alky. Between that and the AWIC the IATs will be very interesting to see. All I can say is ya better hang on when that thing launches off the line.

Kendol

daverr--

Your really missing the point. The water temp rise your speaking of will only occur under boost conditions. How much time do you expect to spend at full throttle on the street. Given how slow the 3 gallons of water heated up, I doubt, unless you plan on serious endurance racing, you will ever suffer from heat soak or extra high water temps. The heat exchanger is there only to remove the heat added under full throttle sprints. My tests show that even a small one does extremely well.

As for factory cars using AWIC, I was only making the point that they aren't affraid of the added compexity and obviously see a benefit to using them. The roots style blowers may limit their ability to use an AAIC, but it doesn't change the fact that the new ZR1 with its AWIC is very street worthy. Besides, I can add ice water to the system to achieve efficiencies well over 100%. Lets see an AAIC system do that.

I used to run a 3-core AAIC with a D1SC on my GTA, and it worked well, but I was still never really happy with the elevated MATs at the drag strip. Now I can add ice and on drag day not worry about my temps. Higher boost on pump gas is never a bad thing.

daverr

iTrader: (1)

I disagree. Take Kendol supercharger setup. remove the intercooler and have the tube from the supercharger go straight to the throttle body. wouldnt u say Kendol will make the same or more power (due to less flow restriction) ????
how could a intercooler being downstream of the supercharger be a power adder????

Kendol

No. Elevated outlet temps would limit fuel octane and the maximum boost I could run. An AAIC has a pressure drop equal to if not higher than my AWIC based just on the surface area of the cores.

Bypass your AAIC, I'll leave my AWIC plumbed like it is and we will see who makes more power. Your right the ICs are not power adders, but they are power optimizers. They allow you to run much higher boost levels with the same fuel octane.

Junkcltr--

Putting an AWIC and an AAIC in series would be a nightmare. Besides the pressure drops across the cores would make them terribly inefficient at lower boost levels.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

EXACTLY. On the street with a setup like this, 2-3 seconds of WOT from 40-50 mph roll where one of these cars MAY actually get traction (mine doesnt until 50-55 even with ET streets and thats with 2.73 gears in third gear) will double the speedlimit on most roads. Thats not long on the throttle and definately not going to heat the water up. 90% of street fun driving will be very short lived on the street.

EVEN on a 80-90 deg day, and a long cruise where the water temp is at ambient 80-90 deg lets say, thats still cooling more efficiently than air to air with the same temps.

So for short blasts AWIC is more than fine for the street. Only problems you may have is adding the tank to the car which takes up space/room and adds weight. These cars can get heavy quick with all the piping/roll cages/turbos/blowers/etc added.



Other thing is at the track, you will want to keep changing out the water for fresh ice water to keep the temps cool as possible for best times. If your track isnt busy that day/night, you may get alot of runs back to back. May not have time to let things cool down and change fluids. Same thing can happen with air to air however. It could be heatsoaked and need abit to cool down.


BUT i will say this, at 140 mph, you are getting a LOT of air flow thru the air to air in the nose and it WILL cool things down tremendously.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Hell no it wouldnt. The air temps would be so hot that he'd have to run extra rich to cool things down and pull timing. It wouldnt come close to making the same power.

Carb cars can do straight blow thru setups with no intercooler because the fuel added in the plenum cools things down effectively. Port injection does not have the same effect since fuel is not in the air long enough to cool things down.


A proper designed intercooler will have MINIMAL pressure loss and restriction. 1-2 psi for a good cooler is more than common. If you have alot more than that, the cooler isnt that efficient.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Now if you could figure out a way to limit the supercharger intake air temps so that the outlet temps arent as high, you will be very very efficient. Cold air intake of some sort heat shielded from the exhaust would be great.

A guy on corvette forum posted results from adding a fresh air source to his blower and noted significant reduction in outlet temps. He literally cut a hole in the side fender/hood and ran a pipe to outside the car with an air filter. Crude but for testing purposes, it worked great.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Yes, it would be a nightmare in a thirdgen. I have a truck with an AAIC that is "rated" at 1200 FWHP. I have often thought about putting a AWIC after it to see the affects really just for experimental purposes. It would not have a significant pressure drop because I would over size the AWIC like the AAIC is. Right now I see about .2 PSI drop with the AAIC and even that is questionable with the map sensor I used. In a thirdgen I think you are right that having both would not be optimal.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

All of us know there are plenty of ways to cool the IATs.

1) start with the coldest intake air source (Kendol could benefit in this area)
2) cool the air into the SC/TC (Kendol has alky spray doing this)
3) cool the SC/TC output air chemically or mechanically
(Kendol chose mechanically with chemical assist)
In terms of using no IC then all chemical is required. He has the equipment (N2O and alky) to do this if he chose. He built a nice setup that gives him all kinds of flexibility. So yeah, he could ditch the AWIC all together if he chose, but with it he gets a big advantage at the track.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I was thinking the same thing. How long and where are you going to be running that much boost/HP on the road? With that much HP even a few pounds of boost is a handful on the street.

The reality is, Kendol has enough sensors on there to see what is what when he has it on the road. He can decide from there is 10 gallons is enough, too much, or not enough. I think this is what it really comes down to. Building stuff and datalogging to see what is optimal and tweaking from there.

Kendol

Junkcltr & Orr89RocZ--

I appreciate your comments. You guys are absolutely right about needing to cool the inlet air going to the supercharger. Right now, it's picking up serious heat off of the driver's side header. I had them coated, but they still put off a tremendous amount of heat. From what I can tell they are raising the inlet temp at least 100*F

I have been giving a lot of thought to how I could pick up cooler air for the inlet to the supercharger, but I can't really see a good way. I thought about putting an air cleaner box on top of the intake manifold plenum (like I saw Willie did in one of his old posts),

but with my NOS solenoids mounted like they are it would require me to rerun the system. I looked at routing a tube back over the driver side inner fender, but I don't believe there is enough room between the inner fender and the hood once its closed. Can you give some ideas? And no I don't want to cut a gaping hole in the inner driver's side fender

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

The only obvious idea is to cut the hood. Not necessarily a gaping hole/square, but slits in the hood like a heat extractor. Can fill the open space with screen mesh of some sort to keep stuff out the engine. I dont think you planned on running this in the rain so that shouldnt be a problem.

You can do a filter setup like Willie did, but just tuck it up on the hood under the slots/hole you cut.

Just insulate the intake piping to keep heat from transfering to the internal cold air. You can wrap the headers or use heat sheild matting material around the intake pipe like a thermal blanket. It works pretty good, its double sided foil matting thats reflective. I use it alot on my turbo car and it protects wires and such very well.

If you use a cowl hood, you may beable to run an open intake pipe to the windsheild/cowl area to pull in air there.

My buddy's procharged L98 88 formula cut his stock hood for his intake setup. Right were the stock firebird powerbuldge style hood bubble is.
Since you have a 91 Z28 with blister style hood, you can cut the back of the blister as an air inlet. Modify the steel abit to allow for a larger opening. (just cut it and bend it downward for a ram air effect)

Example of local kids turbo LS2 Rx7

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

If it was my setup I would do nothing and leave it like it is. The alternatives are too invasive to me. The only time that it will pick up that much heat is sitting and idling. Once moving air will move more horizontal and the inlet air will be cooler. I would wait until you have a chance to get it out on the road and see what the inlet IAT is. I am guessing it will be fine, not optimal but you have enough other things making a cooler IAT.

The only concern I would have is that you mentioned spraying alcohol into the SC inlet. I would make every effort to make sure it doesn't get on the headers. Alky burns clear and is an ugly fire. Even without the inlet alky I think the AWIC and alky at the intake is plenty.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Plus compressors dont like water drops hitting the blades. Spraying before impeller would be risky if the spray is not finely atomized. Excessive droplet size could eventually wear down the blades. Not likely to happen but you never know.

daverr

iTrader: (1)

only under boost? So your intercooler which is mounted underhood will not absorb underhood heat??

I`ll bypass my aaic and still make the same power as before. You`ll say that i will have to run expensive race gas, and I`ll say my car will make the same power as your car and weigh 10 gallons of water less than yours. . I do agree with you that ic allow you to run higher boost with a given octane. All im saying an intercooler is a not a power adder ,its for detonation control which you agree on too.

you could say how your IC 100% in cooling or how u could use ice. But truth is you are still limited to your supercharger flow and efficiency.

Lastly im not knocking your car in any way ,I think its very nicely done. just a bit of criticism.

Kendol

Point taken. I really don't want to argue over semantics. I checked out your current build and it's impressive. The only real point I wanted to make was to post my test results and give guys on this board something to think about.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

directly maybe not, but indirectly it does add power since you can run more timing/and or more boost with cooler intake charge. Dont know what your arguing here.


These cars are bottom air feeders. At the headlights I do not think it will absorb heat from under hood. At idle maybe, but the cooling effect is still greater than radiant heat from engine. At speed, the air flow thru that area should block off alot of the engine heat.

Batass

How much extra cooling do you think you get from the AWIC vs running it in conjuction with alcohol?

I believe water actually has a higher latent heat of vaporization. Problem with water is it supposedly displaces the extra O2 gained from higher density, whereas alcohol can be tuned in as fuel, making much more power.

I'm just wondering how effective the AWIC is vs spraying alcohol? And at the track I wonder even more with the nitrous, if the AWIC is doing much more than restricting air flow?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Also a safety issue with AWIC vs spraying just alcohol. If for whatever reason the pump fails on the alky injection kit, or loses voltage and doesnt mist the alcohol correctly, your intake temps increase and you loose the octane. Recipe for disaster.

Without intercooling and just spraying alcohol, I do not see it reducing the intake temps that much over the AWIC using ice water at the track. Thats my opinion, I do not have data to back that up. It would be very interesting to see the results of a properly designed alky injection kit and its attempt to cool 300 deg worth of compressor outlet air. I just dont see it cooling beyond typical 70-80 % that AWIC can have and thats why the extra octane alcohol provides ensures detonation does not exist. But it depends on how much alcohol you spray and how cold it is when it hits the hot air If you sprayed enough alcohol into the motor, it could actually become like a carbed alcohol motor and not need gasoline. Intake temps probably would be cool then. So it depends on how much you spray I guess.

Then again blow thru carb guys can run some high boost pressures with just fuel used to help keep intake temps down. Alcohol should match that and probably exceed that. It would be a nice comparison to see before/after temps.

Kendol

I've been trying to line up the Harwood cowl hood I have with the front nose piece of the car, but can't figure out what needs to be done to get it to fit right. I've attched some pics. Can you guys show me what you did to get yours to fit?







I know some trimming is necessary, but what do you guys do to achieve the best fit?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Mine dont fit well either. Not to happy about it but i played around with the hood mounting hardware on the car. The hinges I unbolted and just snugged hand tight. With the help of my dad, we were able to move it around, open/close the hood to shift the hinge's mounting point. Helped settle in the hood.

Had to pull it all the way forward that I could to get it to cover the nose. Did alittle bit of grinding on the slots on the hinges where the hood bolts to, inorder to get more movement.

PITA but I came closer to the front. I took out the rubbermounts /bumpstops on the car's fenders and front and the hood dropped down abit more.

In the end, it still sat abit high in the front. I pinned this hood shut, so the gap tightened up.

Kendol

Can you get me some pics of how it fits up to the nose piece? I am looking for some examples so I can see what fit I should be shooting for.

Kendol

Hey guys, I have been trying to locate new rear bump stops for my Z28 and have been to all of the local part stores with no success. If your unfamiliar with this part, it is the rubber bumber circled in the pic.



The originals on mine were dried out and falling apart. I would really like to find new ones, but I am planning on a trip out to the local junk yard. Any help would greatly be appreciated. If you can find me a manufacturer P.N. or local parts store P.N. that would help the most. Thanks guys

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I will look for any pics showing the hood gap after being closed but I dont remember taking any good shots of it.

B4Ctom1

Check with these guys. You might have to download their catalog and look the part up:
http://www.energysuspension.com/prod...ump-stops.html

that is the bump stop page

Kendol

Stole the bump stops off of my 89 GTA. That will at least allow me to get some street time. I can now focus on tuning the XFI system.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Let us know how you like the XFI system. I am considering upgrading to that or something very similar.

B4Ctom1

Can you guys tell me which exact part number hood from harwood you guys ordered?

I want to know because I have never in my life have bolted on a harwood bolton hood that didnt fit like an original. Those pictures are scary, I want to know more now before I order mine.

Kendol

Summit P.N. HRD-B12103

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I bought my hood locally second hand so I dont know the part number. its probably on the hood somewhere, i'd have to look.

Try to show a few pics of it. I dont have anything real close up i dont think.


This one you can kinda see more of a gap with the left passenger fender and the hood than the driver side.



Another thing I did that I forgot about was cutting/trimming down the side ridge of the hood. The part that touches the fender from windsheild to headlight. It was about an inch thick and I cut a half inch strip out of it just about. Seemed to help.


This one if you click on and view full size it brings in more detail. Hood gap isnt huge but its not tight either.

Same with this one.


I think you could get it to snug down further if you use hood pins closer to the center of the hood, so it pulls more of the hood down.

I dont know how they fit with a latch setup like factory.

Batass

I remember the instructions saying they have that big lip for more support and rigidity during shipping.

Kendol

For those of you who are running an aftermarket ECM, where did you mount it? I mounted mine in the passenger side dash so I could see the XFI's LEDs while driving. I'll take some pics and post them tomorrow.

Does anybody have experience using the FAST touchscreen datalogger? I have a few questions about setting it up for additional analog inputs.

Kendol

I have been considering using one of ATI's super pulleys on my Procharger head unit.

http://www.atiracing.com/superpulley/index.htm

I've been looking at using one of these for some time now and was looking for anyone who had practical experience with it. It should improve belt life (tire shake typically removes the teeth off the belt), reduce boost drop between gear changes, and improve head unit bearing life. Any thoughts?

fireturd350

iTrader: (8)

The idea is very interesting that's the first time I've seen that pulley.

I assume since it says it will only disenage when engine rpm is lower than blower rpm that doesn't prevent damage due to backfires while running the cog belt?

Kendol

I have yet to really see a backfire damage a belt, not to say that it's not possible. The best part of the design is that it keeps the compressor wheel from experiencing sudden decreases in engine speed which is hard on the impeller wheel and bearings.

fireturd350

iTrader: (8)

I imagine a backfire would cause more damage to the head unit first.

Summit Racing appears to carry them also.

I did some searching around:
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=191152

You could probably call the Procharger Tech Lines and ask them. I imagine they would have some type of knowledge of them or horror stories if they actually have went bad in the past.