Got a question. I noticed you have digital 10 along with a 6AL and some timing controller. Why do you have both and the additional box? What is the 6AL and the small controller directing?

 

It's actually a MSD10+ box. The MSD10 for track, MSD6 for street driving. I have a toggle switch and a tri-pole coil post that allows me to switch between the two on the fly. I've had a few buddies that have had problems running the MSD10+ continuously, so I added the MSD6 for redundancy.

Ronny--
I haven't tested windshield washer fluid in the AWIC. It would be substantially more expensive than ice/water/salt. Either way, give it a try and post your results here. Keep in mind, WWF is lightly flammable so a leak could be dangerous.

B4CTom1--
I have yet to run C16 with the cats on. I know based on previous experiences that leaded fuel will kill a cat pretty quickly so I have refrained from using it. At this point I'm wondering how much boost pump gas can tolerate. If the MATs are cold enough, and the timing is conservative, is there an actual limit? I would like to see some real data from those running forced induction setups as to what their limit was and what their MATs looked like. I think it would be pretty informative.

 

Great, clean work. Thanks for all the info and pics. The salt water experiment was particularly interesting.

 

Update..

Well, I got the new Strange Engineering Dual master cylinder (1.034" bore P.N. B3360) bench bled it twice, installed Russell speed bleeders at all four corners, bled the brakes at all four corners, modified the combo valve (removed the spring, piston, and sealed with 5/8"x18 plug), and road tested the car. I can say the braking is better, but it is far from perfect. I did a few 25mph hard stops and I can't get the tires to lock up at all. The brake pedal is hard and the car does stop decently, but I was hoping for a more aggressive decel upon heavy brake pressure. Any thoughts on how to improve upon this? I'm stumped.

 

I really wish there was a thread that listed out all the necessary parts and procedures to successfully perform a power to manual brakes swap. The car is a 92Z with disc brakes at all for corners. I am still using the original GM metric calipers that came on the car but have swapped out the following:

1. Purchased a Ed Quay power to manual 3rdgen conversion kit. Unfortunately, it came with the Strange Engineering large bore (1.125" bore P.N. B3359) dual master cylinder. The Strange spec sheet shows the smaller bore (1.034" bore P.N. B3360) master cylinder should be used on applications that utilize 1-2 piston calipers up front. The kit, however, did come with a modified brake pedal with the appropriate mods to move the MC push rod up 2" on the brake pedal.

2. I fabbed new brake lines to accomodate the MC outlets facing the opposite side as the stocker. Ran same size lines as stock to the combo valve.

3. Bled the brakes but forgot to bench bleed the MC. Took a drive and the brakes were hard and spongy. The end result was an unnerving drive with very little braking power.

4. Did a search and discovered the MC bore size issue and decided to order the new smaller bore MC from Strange Engineering (P.N. B3360).

5. Bench bled the new MC twice before installing it on the car.

6. Modified the combo valve by removing the spring and piston. Installed a 5/8"x18 allen plug to seal the valve.

7. Installed speed bleeders at all four corners.

8. Bled the brakes with the help of my daughter and went through 2 full 32oz bottles of DOT5.1 brake fluid just to make sure all of the air was out of the lines. Started the bleed at the RR-LR-RF-LF. All looked great, new uncontaminated fluid came out at all four corners.

9. Took the car for a test drive and the pedal is hard but not spongy. I was hoping to be able to lock up the brakes, but could only do it at 1-2 mph rolls. It takes quite a bit of force to stop the car, but it does better than the 1.125" bore MC. I would really like to improve the setup.

Has anyone else successfully performed this swap with better results. I read a few threads where a few guys claim to have braking power identical to a power setup with the above mentioned mods. Any suggestions would greatly be appreciated.

.....Sand traps aren't fun in golf, and they really suck for drag cars

 

Talk to some of the guys on the drag racing section. I know some of them have manual brakes and one of them has a good setup that brakes pretty hard. Not sure what he used.

 

Unfortunate news.....

While test driving the car today I lost 2nd-3rd-4th gears in the tranny. No major leaks and 1st and reverse continued to work flawlessly. All of the driving I did today was under half throttle and kept boost under 11psi. Just a mile or so from the house, I noticed the car wouldn't shift out of first into any other gear I have never had a tranny fail like this so I am kinda confused. I checked the mechanical linkage from the shifter to the tranny and everything was fine. Closely inspected the TV cable and it checked out fine. While driving, the car was making some serious power in 2nd, but I never ran it hard in drive or OD. This is where I am confused. How could damaging the 2nd gear clutch pack take out D and OD? Unless somebody can offer up some advice as to other things I can check, the car will be down for awhile while I figure out what direction I am going to take on the tranny.

 

So far, this looks like the tranny I will get. I am going to keep looking, but it looks like a decent deal.

http://www.maddogtransmissions.com/7...slash-4l60.htm

The one I have now was built by ProBuilt Automatics in California. Its a 700R4 with a Precision Industries 3200rpm 10" converter.

 

sounds like you wiped out the forward sprag, which probably took out the the 2-4 band, and followed shortly after by the 3-4 clutches.

Unless someone invented a new forward sprag that is a diode sprag that can hold the power and still not fall apart from regular street driving, I can promise you that you will do the same to anyones in the worlds 700R4/4L60.

A race TH350 probably wouldn't hold the power you are making.

Sorry to be the one to deliver the bad news.

 

Ouch.....

Any suggestions? What would have taken out the forward sprag so quickly? Like I said, I don't think I even went over half throttle today. I'll take a look at the dataloggs, but I believe I only hit 33-40% on the TPS. Granted the car accelerated like a freight train even at part throttle, but damn. Are these things inherently that weak? I really wanted to have an OD auto in the car. I don't like the idea of using the heavier 4L80E. From what your saying, the only choice I have will be a PowerGlide or a well built TH400.

 

I am afraid they are. I and friends of mine have spent thousands and thousands of dollars trying everything from experimental parts to cryo to try to fix the issues. I even learned how to build them myself just to avoid some of the expense. A car like yours needs a TH400, or if you can get the weight on the car down enough, a glide.

I await the 700R4 fans to descend on me and slay me, but if you need some supporting info, just do to the drag racing forum.

Another option for OD would be to row your own. A tremec TKO might be an idea. Sure its 5 speeds doesn't sound as sexy in a world full of expensive and fragile 6 speeds, but it is strong.

 

Definately not fond of manuals for drag racing applications. Not saying they won't work, just that there is too much room for driver error. I have a stick in every street car I own including my Z06, but for drag racing I have little confidence I could beat an auto car with the same power using a manual. I have to admit though, rowing through the gears would be fun with this kind of power.

 

Is there an easy way to verify the extents of the damage? I would like to know why shops like the one in the link above can rate their trannys that high if the forward sprag is that weak. Even Probuilt rates theirs up 675-700hp. I am not saying your wrong, in fact I have always felt 700s are incredibly weak for big power. I would like to verify whats damaged, but to be honest I have never disassembled an auto before. Will the TC be trash? It doesn't have many miles on it (i.e. <1000) and it's an expensive part to trash.

Keep in mind, ProBuilt did the last overhaul. It has the Transgo shift kit, billet servos, and a host of other upgraded components. I was assuming it would be able to handle moderate power longer than it has.

 

RAted to 700 yes, but I bet you are a good ways over that My mild built 700r4 lasted a good while behind my nitrous 383 but who knows how long it would have lived if I continued to push it. Certainly the turbo setup would kill it.

I miss overdrive myself, and would consider a 4L80E. SEems to be the only bet. I have the full manual Th400 and its not so bad on the road since I have 2.73 gears. With the amount of power these type of motors make, you dont need any gear out back. Its a perfect match actually.

You can tear the pan off and smell the fluid and look for pieces in the fluid. May smell burnt up. My 700r4 first failed while trying to shift 2 to 3 during a race. Took out 3/4 gear and I only had 2 gears. Not sure why all of yours failed but the reason above seem reasonable. I"m not a tranny guy but I know 700r4's arent that strong and cost alot of money to handle some power while a cheap 400 rebuild can handle 800-900 hp.

 

Is there any chance it's just the governor? Checked the fluid right after it happened and its still fresh (light and pink) with new fluid smell. I took it for several drives after letting it cool down and nothing. Same old $h%t. Funny thing is it's acting like it's stuck in first gear. I tried manually shifting it, and it just stays in first gear until I hit neutral. Interestingly, I was being easy on it when it happened (i.e. driving through residential area). Man this really sucks.

On a different note.... I guess the car is louder than I personally realized. Had a sheriff knock on my door 20 minutes after parking it for the evening. 6 of my neighbors called the police saying I was hot rodding down the street. Wow, what idiots. Yes it's loud, but the tranny problems were forcing me to limp the car home in 1st. Funny though, the deputy is a gear head and was more interested in looking at the car than lecturing me about driving an uninspected/registered car on the street. We talked cars for over an hour. LOL. I think I just made a new friend. I doubt this was the outcome the nosey neighbors were wanting.

 

I agree. My measly 305ci with boost wiped out the 700R4 the exact same way as Kendol experienced. Now the twin turbo rig tows around the wood splitter in the yard. First and reverse work great.


Since it is a boosted vehicle it has around 3.00 or less gears. Best bet is a Th400 or a glide. Personally, I would go with the 4l80e but he doesn't want the weight.

The main problem with the 700R4 self destructing so fast is the TVS valve. Think about it.......at 30% throttle position you are making jack for line pressure and a lot of HP. Everything slips and self destructs. I think the 700R4 is the worst for boost. I am replacing with a 4l60e that I can program line pressure vs. boost (hp).

EDIT: yeah, they can build a 700hp 700R4, but not with boost making that much torque at less than 50% throttle. The builders don't account for that. They expect WOT power and line pressure.

 

Absolutely a full diagnosis beyond my simple off the cuff diagnosis would be in order. A check of the TV plunger and valve in the valve body, a double check of TV cable adjustment, an inspection of the governor. Yes definitely. It would be crazy to not check it out.

As for the stick, I totally agree with your sentiment. I was lucky because while I ran my old stick car there was actually a class for sticks only.

 

After I posted last, I started wondering if anything had come out since I was building race 700's. I asked a guy and he said "yeah we have 29 element forward sprags now." I told him "well I was destroying 29 element forward sprags on launch years ago." He pointed out that the new sprags are double caged. I knew as soon as he showed me one this could make a huge difference. He builds here; http://www.rpmtransmissions.com/levelvi.html

You might be able to keep your 700R4, but just because I personally wouldn't go through the hassle of another possible expensive failure on a car as powerful as yours doesn't mean you might not want to risk it.

 

Sounds interesting, but I've had too many problems with the weak 700R4 to continue throwing money away trying to beef them up. If I could find someone locally that would build and stand behind it, maybe I would change my mind. To be honest, the 700R4 is a tinker toy transmission that is best suited for applications that make less than 500fwhp. I am really conflicted to what I want use going forward. TH400s are strong and can be built to handle well over 1500hp with the right parts, but it does not have overdrive. A 4L80E has overdrive, but I'm not entirely convinced it can handle more than 800fwhp. It is also heavy, expensive, and will require some trans tunnel mods to fit. I have been considering a TH400 with a GearVendors unit to get the overdrive I want, but the cost of both will be close to the 4L80E and it's TCU. I guess, it will boil down to what I can get a good deal on.

On a different note...does anyone have any experience with the new TCI 6-speed transmission? http://www.tciauto.com/Products/TC-'Street%20Transmissions'-4.aspx. They say it can handle 850+hp, but I haven't seen any real track cars using it. It's based on the 4L80E and having a paddle shifter would be cool. Given I am already looking at $4000+ for the TH400/GearVendors and standard 4L80E/TCU combos, I thought this would be worth investigating as well. Price is steep though.....$6000 without torque converter.....OUCH.......

 

I don't know how much money you want to spend but Roosler makes a 4L80e that goes for about 4000.00 and has a 2 year warranty. Also http://www.transmissioncenter.net/ these guys have a 4L60 behind a 1100hp vette.

Also thanks for the contact at ASSC Larry. He has been the bomb and very helpful. I ordered an F2 and the crank support from him. I will probably get my Big Stuff 3 from him too.

 

I went with a 400 and gearvendors. It fit great I have seen it hold up in a friends car for years of trouble free abuse. That car runs 8.30's and weighs 4000+#'s. I just had to get a custom tranny crossmember made and have driveshaft shortened. 4l80 would be trick, but I went for the for sure thing. Three wires and I was done. And I saw a TON of fast street cars use it on DRAG WEED 2009. It's a great piece worth the money.

 

How well does the gearvendors overdrive unit fit under the car? Do you need to hack up the rear floor pans to get it to fit? Where did you mount the torque arm/tranny crossmember mount?

 

Fit a little tight, but it definitly fits. I currently run old school southside lift bars. Will be changing back to torque arm but will have to intall bmr short torque arm that brace mounts right behind gearvendor around seatbelt bolt area in floor. I have heard a lot of positive things about those bmr short torque arm. I almost have my new 400 procharger F2 combo running, so I will let you know how this gearvendor holds up. But I seriously don't expect any problems.

 

TH400 w/ overdrive is ok, but no lockup. Personally, I would put the 4L80E with a good kit in it for 1000+ HP. Basically, a TH400 with updates and OD. Turbo cars usually have plenty of gear though. What rear end gears are in it?

I am not sure what ECM/PCM you are running. I have one car targeted for running the 427_ECM out of a truck. It controls the 4L80E and batch fire injection. I am coupling that with a BW 88mm turbo.
The TH400 w/ OD weighs less than the 4L80E? I thought it was heavier. I see the TH400 OD for sale time to time pretty cheap (sub $300).

 

I'm sure you could get a 4L80 to work great. I just haven't seen one in person myself in a fast car. Couple of local guys have been talkin' bout trying one for some time.
I have 3.70 but I know it will go down to 3.50 or less. Gonna try what I have first.
I have a big stuff 3.

 

Do you have a thread? I mainly want to see and find out more about your crank support.

 

Yeah.......

 

if you guys send me your email I'll send you pictures of it. If you have a bbc crank snout, you really don't need it. However it does give you two mandrels to run your accessories like an alternator and vacuum pump. I also has a place for a crank trigger eye. Pretty neat peace.

 

Kendol,
What brand hose did you use to connect your intercooler tubing to?
Thanks

 

Funny you should ask... I had originally planned on using braided SS lines, but in the rush to get it put together I used 1" industrial hose from Ace hardware. They ordered a whole reel of it for me and I was able to plumb it without any real difficulties. I hate using worm gear clamps on anything, but thought the ease and cost would make things go a little faster. Funny thing, when I added up the cost for all the brass NPT-barb fittings, clamps, and hose, It was only cheaper than braided SS by a few dollars. When money and time allows, I will be converting them to braided SS. I may leave a small section of the hose in the system so I can see the water flow, but the rest will be SS.

 

Thanks Kendol,
Which brand silicone connecting tube for the intercooler pipes did you use? You know the rubber 3-4" sections that allow you to remove the tubes? I am using a "green strip" radiator hose with clams from my local car parts store to run the water lines, similiar to what you described. It works, run with it.

 

Maria--

Sorry about the confusion. The silicone hump hoses are from Race Parts Solutions. They have a wide range of sizes available and they're pricing is great. Here is a link:

http://www.racepartsolutions.com/

Let me know how they work out for you.

 

Thanks! Here is a pic of my project that I am working on. All you guys have been a ton of help.

 

hey i know this is kinda random but i am doing a sump in my camaro and i was wondering if you could take some more pictures of your fuel system. I would like to see a closer picture of your fuel pump mounting and your sump from under the car. I know i am asking a lot but it would really help me out in getting mine done. Thanks a million.

 

Other than the pics in post#11 on pg.1, what do you want to see a picture of?

 

I would like to see a picture of the sump from under the car with the tank installed. I would also like to see pictures of where you routed your fuel line from the sump to the front of your car. Mainly just untill you get to the rear seat area. Any pictures would be great! Thank you so much.

 

Thought you guys might want a glimpse of what I've been working on over the past few weeks.







I haven't liked the unfinished look of the front bumper opening since I cut it out for the heat exchanger. After reallizing that it wouldn't be optimal for air flow through the heat exchanger, I decided to make a new fiberglass nose insert to direct/straighten the air flow as it passes into the heat exchanger. I haven't finished it yet and it still needs some additional shaping, but so far it fits pretty good. Once I finish all the rough work, I will paint it semigloss black to mimic the factory piece. Either way, I thought it would be of interest to those of you who have done similar modifications for FMIC installations. Let me know what you think.

 

Definitely like it, really makes it a clean professional looking install

 

Very cool...how did it turn out? This thread just seemed to abruptly stop...

 

can I asks you a question what procharger bracket you have I wanna put a procharger f194 in my firebird formula and do you have power steering thanks

 

can I ask you a question what procharger bracket you have I wanna put a procharger f194 on my firebird formula and do you have power steering thanks

 

can I ask you a question what kind of procharger bracket you have I wanna put a procharger f194 in my firebird formula thanks