B4Ctom1

I feel I really screwed up. In 1999 I was building racing transmissions and thought that a solution to belt whip/loss/breakage from sudden engine deceleration could be fixed the way that transmissions do it by allowing a sprag to give the blower the ability to "over-run".

Instead of patenting it, I drew a diagram of exactly the device ATI makes and emailed it to our dealer contacts at Vortech and Procharger.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I am still waiting for the MadMax electric clutch setup for superchargers.

Kendol, I finally got to look at some of the other pictures. Very nice build.

Batass

I have those movie frames of that supercharger "turning on" burned in my head.

Although, those aussies seem to get cooler stuff than we do.

Kendol

Junkcltr--

Thanks for the kind words. After reading the thread on Yellowbullet, I think I will wait to gather more info on the ATI super pulley. Most of the real feedback concerned the excessive mass of the pulley and no one was able to quantify any real gains by using it. Given the $$$, I would like to see more quantifiable data. I am using a crank with a BBC snout and dual key ways, but I have concerns the extra mass placed on the head unit may cause more problems than its worth. Hopefully more people will chime in on this thread and provide some good feedback. All I have been able to dig up so far is that it is mostly hype and has little to no benefit.

On a different note, I should be receiving my Chizeled Performance AWIC water tank tomorrow. If they built it to the AutoCAD drawing I sent them, it should fit beautifully in the rear hatch area. Once I get it mounted I have to run the water lines up to/from the engine bay and figure out a good place to mount the Meziere 55gpm water pump. Once I complete this, I should be able to do some real tuning to see what this thing is capable of. As I stated earlier in this thread, I will be testing the real world efficiency of the AWIC system and will provide you guys with some hard datalogs.

B4Ctom1

There should be no gains from that pulley, only the benefit of less belt damage, less thrown belts, and possibly less crossloading of the crank snout which could reduce the damage that could occur. I am not sure, but I am guessing that you got the BBC snout because of breakage you have seen.

The mass of the pulley would be significantly more, but not significant in a way that could hurt the blower. Because of the over-run under load it would be a solid complete mass, but under the "over-running" state the inner race portion would be the only part loaded to the blower and the outer part would be loaded to the belt and crank, with the sprag kind of floating between the two.

Im not sure how much it costs, but its probably pretty expensive. Considering the steps you took with the crank, I agree that you should weigh the cost benefits and necessity of such a device.

My buddy Matt has a similar setub to you with a 388 and 18* pontiac heads with a F2 making 1000 rwhp, he has no such snout or device.

http://www.titusracing.com/images/sh...s/matteng1.JPG
http://www.titusracing.com/images/sh...s/matteng2.JPG
http://www.titusracing.com/images/sh...s/matteng3.JPG
http://www.titusracing.com/images/shoprides/matt.JPG
(all my hosting)

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

That is the same concern I would have. On top of that is handling the force and what happens if it lets go, free wheels, and then catches.

Batass

That part has come up a few times in this forum, maybe someone bought it.

Kendol

Pics of the new water tank:

Kendol

Some more pics with it in the car:







I'll be working over the next day or two to plumb it in and get things rolling.

Kendol

Thought I would share some of the results generated from my ice water tests tonight.

I wanted to see what the actual temperature of ice water would be with a 50/50 mix of ice and water. Not surprising, but when I measured it with my thermocouple it came out to be 33.4*F. This got me to thinking, salt will suppress the melting temperature of ice and what would happen if I mixed in a generous amount of Kosher salt. Surprisingly, the thermocouple read 24.7*F.

By just adding salt, I can reduce the temperature of the ice water in the tank almost 10*F (almost 8*F below freezing). I am not sure how the aluminum tank will fair corrosion wise with the salt, but this experiment has shown me that I can supercool the water going to my AWIC for even more impressive gains. Don't know if any of you guys have ever considered doing this with an AWIC, but I thought it would be worth sharing.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Results like this are making me consider a new setup using AWIC's. I'd have to look at what my temps are under boost as I have no idea. Stock MAT/IAT is worthless for reading that. Cold air like that would be nice, probably hit another 2-4 psi boost on pump gas...possibly.

Batass

Wouldn't anitfreeze do the same and be less corrosive?

Kendol

I'll check antifreeze to see if it provides any advantages over the ice/water/salt mix. I know the ice/water/salt mixture almost acts like an endothermic reaction, so it allows the mixture to get substantially colder than just the ice water mix. Either way, I will test antifreeze to see if it offers the same benefits. If it does, then it will also have the added benefit of being less corrosive.

B4Ctom1

you could consider using dry ice as well. when the dry ice melts it just vaporizes back into CO2 and is much colder than any ice/salt mix.

Batass

I don't see how mixing water and salt creates an endothermic reaction. Its kind of endothermic in the fact that surrounding heat will be pulled into it, but that could be said of anything.

They could use sugar on our roads instead of salt and our cars wouldn't turn to powder in 10 years.

IIRC, anything that will dissolve in water will lower its freezing point and also its boiling point I think too, but there is something in antifreeze that increases the boiling point instead. I could be wrong.

I really like what your doing and I'm really excited to see how it fares against alcohol or water injection. Its amazing how much power is to be had by cooler denser air.

B4Ctom1

Mythbusters episode 29 they cooled a 6-pack in 15 minutes with regular ice and water. By adding salt, they reduced the time to 5 minutes. That is considerable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MythBus...ing_a_Six_pack

Measuring the medium, ice and water only achieved a 33°, adding salt to the mixture changed the measurement to 24°.

Kendol

Alright guys. I tried the antifreeze/water/ice mixture and compared its temperature to the water/ice and water/ice/salt mixture. The thermocouple read 32.8*F, and thus showed it was not as effective as the water/ice/salt mixture. The ambient temperature was up roughly 2*F (98*F vs. 96*F) from yesterday, but I doubt it had any real effect on the experiment. I then added salt to the antifreeze/water/ice mixture and again saw a noticable decrease in water temperature (droped a full 7*F) to 25.6*F. Based on this, I will only use coolant during the winter as I originally planned. I did not try sugar or any other additives to see what the effects would be. If you have any other ideas, let me know and I will try them.

B4Ctom1--

I agree solid CO2 (dry ice) would be a great medium based on temperature alone, but I am afraid of its expansion rate as it sublimes from a solid to a gas. I only have a small vent in the system making that a potentially explosive mix. If I was really trying the rare chemical route, I could go to the local dairy farm (yes I live out in the country) to get liquid nitrogen as they use it regularly for sperm cryogenics. I am sure though, it too would suffer from the same expansion rate.

I would like to try 100% alcohol with ice. Not sure if there would be any real benefit, but I think it would be interesting to see compared to the water mixes.

On a different note, I got the water tank mounted and the support bracket made. I still have to paint the braket, mount the water pump under the car, and run the coolant hoses up to the AWIC. Here are some pics of the mount:

Batass

Interesting, barely a change with antifreeze. That surprises me because antifreeze is definitely loaded with glucose.

Ha, when I was a boy on the farm we had one of those small tanks of LN2 and I asked what the little plastic tubes were. When my dad told me, I was like WTF? I was never allowed to play with it though. The nitrogen I mean.....

If you kept the dry ice or LN2 pressurized safely I think it could work well. Wouldn't need a pump or lines either. It doesn't take much pressure to keep it a liquid.

Kendol

My biggest concern about using a commercial/industrial liquid (i.e. CO2-dry ice or LN2-liquid nitrogen) is that once they absorb heat through the heat exchange process (i.e. AWIC) they will go from a liquid to a gas. This, much like the refrigerent in AC systems, will require a compressor and a condenser to revert the gas back to a liquid. To make a system like this, it would require me to power a compressor and convert my heat exchanger into a condenser. A typical AC compressor would not work because they can't handle extended use at high rpms. Either way, though interesting, I don't think either would be practical.

Kendol

LMAO

Kendol

Tank mounted. Now running the lines and mounting the pump.

tom86iroc

iTrader: (1)

the thing i'd be worried about is the salt in the water pump and the intercooler getting clogged up if that pump died while you were under boost you'd have a problem then

Kendol

Yeah, a salt mixture will be slightly corrosive but, I'm not talking about a pound of salt either. My earlier experiments showed an excessively salty mixture isn't necessary. It looks like 1 tbsp of salt per quart will do the trick. This works out to roughly a 4500ppm mixture, slightly more than what saline pools require (roughly 3000-4000ppm). I haven't seen any negative effects on my pool pumps from converting over to saline vs. chlorine. With that said, it is corrosive and I'm not sure what long term effects it will have on the durability of the parts. Keep in mind, I will only be using the salt mixture when I run at the track or on dyno. On the streets it will be straight water with the occasional dosing of ice.

tom86iroc

iTrader: (1)

ok gotcha didn't realize it was that small of an amount should have no problem with that have you also thought about the water wetter stuff for radiators too??the stuff that's supposed to cool 40*

Maria8

Hi Kendol,
Thanks for posting all the info and pics. I am currently in deep with a procharger f2 combo with MANY similar parts. I would love to be able to chat with you. I will post a few pics in next couple of weeks as soon as I get a few loose ends mounted permenantly.
I am building an '85 TA i have had for 17years. Old carb n20 350 trans ran 9.95. I cracked the stock block and one thing led to another with one of my procharger buddies.
My parts installed so far.
Procharger F2
Dart Block
Callies Crank with big block snout
oliver rods
accel pro ram
moran 95mm throttle body with wilson elbow
Airflow research
big stuff 3
96lbs injectors
coan converter with coan 400
gearvendors overdrive
bmr k-member and arms then coilovers
reused for now 9" with my old school southside lift bars
I am stopping at rear end so I can get it running this year. My car was in Hot Rod Mag jan 10 issue. Nino Porpiglia
Your car is awesome! I found it looking for intercooler ideas and about flipped when I saw it. Your ride is gonna ROCK.
Keep posting pics as I will as well soon!

Kendol

Thx Nino. I responded to your PM. If you have some questions, please consider posting them here, as others will benefit from them as well.

Kendol

Thought I would give a quick update:

Tank is mounted.
Pump is mounted and wired up.
Lines are run to the AWIC and heat exchanger

I did a quick test yesterday filling the water tank with ice water and within a minute or two the AWIC developed a thick layer of frost on its outer case (this was with an ambient of 97*F). A quick check of the touchscreen datalogger showed the AWIC water temp at 37*F. I only used one bag of ice and had roughly 6 gallons of water in the system when I added it. The most surprising thing about this quick test was that the water remained below 48*F for over 5 hours after I called it quits for the day. I guess mounting the tank in the rear hatch area helps insulate the tank enough for it to maintain low temps for an extended period of time.

As soon as I finish putting the nose back on the car, I intend to do some MAT tests with the system to see what all this work will get me. I have a great deal of optimism at this point. Stay tuned......

Batass

Mat? Manifold air temp?

I'm planning on ditching my centrifugal supercharger for a 177 roots. I'd like to lower peak hp and raise low end torque. I know they make a lot of heat not to mention my 9:1 cr might be a little high for pump gas so I'm pretty interested in keeping air temps down. I haven't seen any AWIC for a 177 on a sbc yet, but I'm wondering how it would stack up against water/meth. I think it should be the same situation.

MassD

iTrader: (1)

I think i can help you understand how to lower the freezing point of the water to optimize your AWIC. First of all Sugar will not work like salt will because sugar is an organic compound. I am 16 and just finished chemistry, i got a 100 all year in the honors class and a 100 on the NY regents. The boiling and freezing point of a liquid are based on the amount of ions the liquid contains. Ions can only be found in ionic and covalent compounds. Organic compounds contain only carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen, which are all not ions. Sugar's chemical formula is C6H12O6, which as you can see contains no ions. Salts chemical formula is NaCl. The Na is 1 ion and the Cl is another Ion. If you want to decrease your freezing point the most your need to add something with the most ions. For example the compound ammonium phosphate chemical formula is (NH4)3PO4. This differs from table salt because it contains things known as polyatomic ions. 1 polyatomic ion is equivalent to 1 ion. NH4 (ammonium) is 1 ion and ammonium phosphate contains 3 NH4's. PO4(phosphate) is another polyatomic ion. In total ammonium phosphate contains 4 ion which is twice as many as table salt and in theory should decrease the waters freezing twice as much. Another way to lower the boiling point would be to continuously dissolve the salt of ammonium phosphate into the water until no more salt can mix into the water. It will just collect on the bottom. This will cause the solution to be saturated, which means that no more salt of what ever you are using could be added. This would assure that the most ions of salt are dissolved into the water as possible and would maximize the temperature change. Another option based on my car and chemistry mind would be to add a water additive that they use for drag racing. For example the red line water additive. The additive is basically a non corrosive solution that contains a lot of ions, which in turn lowers the freezing and boiling point of the water. Sorry for typing so much feel free to ask questions if you do not understand, it isn't an easy topic.

bluegrassz

iTrader: (3)

Water Wetter, 40 Below or Purple Ice.

Im not sure of there components, but they might be worth looking into.

I run Water Wetter in my NA motor and it seems to work to some "degree". (<--no pun intended lol.)

http://www.dual-star.com/index2/Serv..._tech_info.htm
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/DEI-040208/

Kendol

Bluegrassz--

Thanks for the WaterWetter link. After finding the freezing point data, it pretty much pointed out what I originally suspected. The freezing point with the additive is really unchanged from pure water at 31 degrees. The other downside to it is that it would get pretty expensive to add each time I dump the water in the tank. It's a lot easier to drain the hot water than add copious amounts of ice to cool it back down to faucet temp.

MassD

iTrader: (1)

try adding a chemical that contains a lot of ions and dosnt react with aluminum. Most chemical compunds are extremely cheap to make

B4Ctom1

MassD, thank you for your content and contribution. I couldn't begin to explain as well as you have why adding sugar to lower temperature would be such a bad idea, unless we are trying to make syrup. I would rather have my entire cooling system rust away into nothingness from those free ions than have it gummed up by a syrup.

I would love to see you address the next subject with equal fervor on a chemistry level; "why water alcohol mixes are less helpful than straight alcohol.

I think it was Anesthes or another member in the tuning section did a huge post where they used various mixes of water and alcohol and found straight alc had the best yields in performance as a aftercooling additive.

MassD

iTrader: (1)

The answer to this question is a bit easier to understand. Water and alcohol do not combine chemically. They do not even mix well. So when you combine water and alcohol you are not creating something new. You are just mixing water and alcohol, so the liquid flowing through your cooling system is just some water and some alcohol nothing is truly mixed. Another factor that determines the freezing point of a liquid is the intermolecular forces that compound contains. Ionic compounds have low freezing points because they have extremely strong intermolecular forces. Another type of compound is called a covalent bond and that is what water is. They have relatively high freezing points. However water is special because it contains special hydrogen bonds that lower the freezing point. However compared to an ionic compound it is very high. Like water Alcohols contain those special bonds that lower the freezing point. In fact they contain many many more hydrogen bonds that a molecule of water because they are much bigger. This means that the freezing point of Alcohol is much lower than water and many other compounds that are non corrosive. That is why it is one of the best candidates for a cooling liquid. Except for the fact that it is highly flammable. You can remember this because most people place alcoholic beverages in the freezer and they don't freeze they just get extremely cold. For example methane which is a common alcohol used in racing freezes at 296.5 degrees F if i remember correctly or something like that. An added benefit of Methane is that it doesn't react with oxidizers, a.k.a any metal that will rust or oxidize, which means aluminum will not oxidize in the presence of Methane. If you have any questions feel free to ask, I hope i answered your question.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Thats surprising since water has higher latent heat of evaporization compared to alcohols. Water should cool better than alcohol when added to hot gas in an intercooling/aftercooling sense.

But when it comes to power, its alcohol's higher octane rating that allows more timing/boost to be added and increases output. Its higher octane rating allows more timing and higher cylinder pressures since its more resistant to detonation. This all means higher power.

50/50 mixes do well since you add alittle bit of octane boost with the alcohol, and the water has a good cooling effect to the incoming air.

But for all out performance, use straight alcohol. It will cool the charge a good ways, but really adds octane so you can make more power with aggressive tunes.

Batass

I'm assuming "best yields in performance" means most power. The owner of an alcohol injection system told me that water does cool better than alcohol and is what you should run if you need to be as safe as possible. He said it will not add any power though because the water in the air displaces the extra oxygen. Since the alcohol is a fuel and can be tuned into the system, it doesn't displace oxygen anymore than the motor would already, so you get the full benefit of the denser air.

10 degrees decrease in IAT seems to be an increase of 1% engine power according to Kenne Bell.

If I'm doing my math right and adding methanol at 15% of total fuel delivered to the motor by misting it and 92 octane gas:

92(.85)+115(.15)=95.45 total octane

I just figured 15% based on my change in AFR, I have no idea how accurate this is.

Kendol

I haven't posted in a while--been hard at work trying to get the car to where I can drive it. As such, I took it for its first street test today with a VERY conservative tune. Oh my god, it was a serious rush and way too much power for the street. Light to mid throttle throttle blasts were exciting to say the least and the two brief WOT bursts (AFR @ 10.5 and timing at 22*) resulted in uncontrollable wheel spin even at 40mph. I really need to get this thing to a dyno because tuning mid to WOT on the street will be impossible. The only dissappointing news is that the brakes are woefully inadequate. I converted to manual brakes via the Ed Quay kit and just realized he shipped it with the 1.25" bore Strange master cylinder instead of the 1.032" bore. I also forgot to bench bleed the master cylinder so the brake pedal wasn't only hard it was pretty spongy. I still haven't messed with the stock proportioning valve so I am sure my brake bias needs a little work too. Either way, I ordered the new 1.032" bore master cylinder today and hope to continue tuning on Friday. Power adders are COOOLLL!!!!

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Welcome to the boost world How much boost you hit? street tuning a setup like that is limited in what you can do. Most i'm comfortable with is 50-55mph rolls to 100mph in 2nd gear to get a feel for the top end of my power band. Need a good road to do that on, but it doesnt take but 3 seconds to hit those speeds so you dont need much room, just good straight road with lots of shutdown room

Batass

What tires?

Kendol

I only saw 17psi. I don't have the burst plate loading springs very tight so it started to vent at 16+psi. I saw that in first gear with a very brief WOT snap. With my other SC build, max boost (i.e. highest pressures) weren't seen until I was in third gear. I am sure the thing is going to max well over 20+psi when I tighten the springs on the burst panel. I originally pullied the engine to generate 26+psi at 6500rpm. Don't know if I will actually see it, but I am going to find out real soon.

Scary power though. Once I get the brakes fixed, I'll post some videos to illustrate how much of a hand full this car is...

Kendol

I'm using BFG 275-60R15's drag radials mounted on Crager drag stars for the street. The ambient temps here are 97* so they are extremely sticky. Just not sticky enough... Rear gear is stock 3.08:1.

Kendol

I didn't mention how effective the AWIC was at lowering MATs. I started with ambient temp water today (95*F) when I began stationary tuning. By the time I got it out on the street for 30mins of driving the water temp was up to 118*F and the MAT was reading 120*F. No matter how hard I was on the throttle, the MATs only rose 2*F the whole time I was driving. Goes to show that with ice and denser air charge bigger power is only a bag of ice away.

Kendol

Thought I would post a pick of the burst panel setup that I am using to limit boost.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

You think you can handle that much boost on pump gas or are you going to be using race gas or meth to help out?

17 is alot of boost to be breaking in the tune on

Kendol

I'm running pretty rich (10.5:1), keeping my timing at 22*, and my AWIC seems to be keeping the MATs in check. Your right though, it's a lot for pump gas but there hasn't been any audible signs of knock yet.

Kendol

Unrelated--

How long do you think catalytic converters will last with leaded C16 race gas. I am running a true dual 3" exhaust with 3" high flow cats feeding a pair of Borla race mufflers. I have another setup that I intend to run at the track with some Dynomax bullets and turndowns. I am concerned leaded fuel and the additional heat that comes with it will trash the cats in short order.

B4Ctom1

Between the lead coating the catalyst and rich condition adding hydrocarbons which cannot be catalyzed I would say the process has begun in earnest.

B4Ctom1

TGO server crashed during post caused double post

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Quote: On a different note, I should be receiving my Chizeled Performance AWIC water tank tomorrow.

How would windshield washer fluid work ?

Maria8

Congratulations!!!,