quadgoat

iTrader: (1)

So Alex's (sailtexas186548) build inspired me to liven up my car a bit. It'd been together for a while and has been too reliable, so I decided I should tear it apart and "upgrade" a bit LOL

After getting some input and advice from Alex (THANK YOU!) I decided to order the same headers he used from Sanderson. The only differences with my headers were that I had Sanderson install the mounting flanges upside-down and I had them install v-band flanges on the collectors instead of their standard 3 bolt collector flange. With the mounting flanges installed upside-down I could install the headers upside-down without any interference with the coolant temp sensor in the cylinder head.





I also got a brand new Turbonetics 7868 "Hurricane" series turbo (TC78) from Yates EFI (GREAT guy to deal with, and a member on here!)


(wrapped in plastic...for my protection?)



I also bought a used GReddy Type RS blowoff valve from a friend of mine


The next step was deciding on a wastegate, and I elected to go with the Precision PW46 which is a nice, compact gate that uses v-band flanges on both the inlet and outlet

...hmm...nice packaging...

Ooooh! There it is...brand new Precision PW46 Wastegate :twisted:

Pretty compact package for a 46mm wastegate....or at least it seems like it to me




(To be continued....)

quadgoat

iTrader: (1)

(....Continued)


I elected to mount the turbo in the right front of the engine bay where the battery was. I relocated the battery to the driver's side of the engine bay (later model Trans Ams had it over there from the factory, so I was able to use a factory cruise control bracket to relocate my cruise servo too) I had to make two modifications to the car itself. I cut out the battery tray on the passenger side, and I drilled a hole in one side of the frame rail to run the oil drain line through. I fabricated a mounting bracket for the turbo and used some very thick rubber to insulate the turbo mount from the chassis to allow for some flex and help prevent vibrations from resonating into the chassis.




Then I started fabricating. Downpipe first, then the hotside...







I did use the wrong type of flex pipe in the hotside originally, but a friend of mine caught that mistake and I corrected it before it was too late

I used a mandrel bent 90* oval pipe from SpinTech along with an aftermarket Ford F-250 headpipe for headers that a friend of mine had bought and ended up not using to help fabricate my collector. It all ended up working fairly well, at least I think so!

Here are some shots of how it looks all covered with Lava heat wrap:

quadgoat

iTrader: (1)

A couple shots of the turbo, wastegate, and air filter (CRAMMED into the inside of the fender, but it fits!!)



I ended up grabbing a "cheap" intercooler off eBay along with a piping/coupler/clamp kit. I mounted the intercooler horizontally between the core support and the front bumper in the opening already there. That way the stock airdam could still function for both engine cooling, and to help push air up through the intercooler. I should also mention that I took this time to install a set of LT-1 F-body dual fans that I had on my old '84 Trans Am and never got around to installing in the '92 when I built it.



I also had to remove the stock coolant overflow jug, so I installed a smaller, aftermarket one in the space in front of the radiator. I also installed a transmission cooler in that same area to use as a power steering cooler, since the stock cooler (which was just a loop of tubing) wouldn't fit well with my dual fan setup.



I got all the cold side piping to fit without too much trouble. I had to fabricate a new battery tray (customized an aftermarket universal tray) so I could scoot the battery closer to the radiator to allow space for the cold side to come up between the battery and the fender. I also had to rotate the stock horns inside the fender to give me the space I needed for the piping.




And the hood even still shuts!



I built the driver's side to passenger side crossover pipe with v-bands at both ends to allow for easy removal to access the belt, water pump, and anything else I might need to get at on the front of the engine.

-Paul

quadgoat

iTrader: (1)

Here's a video of the first time I started the car with the turbo setup. Tune was WAY out of whack and I just had an open downpipe on it...rather loud LOL!



I got to spend a few hours playing on the dyno a couple days before Christmas. Good news/bad news...Bad news is my Walbro 255 in the tank can't keep up with 15 psi and fuel pressure drops off to 15-20 psi shortly after I hit full boost. Good news is, even with that issue I was able to make 407 RWHP and 470 RWTQ on a Mustang dyno.

We swapped out both the fuel filter and the pressure regulator on the dyno to troubleshoot the problem but it remained the same, so now I've got a 400 lph pump to drop in the tank. Car responded to added boost VERY well. Went from 250 HP at 6 PSI or so when we started up to the 407 HP at 15 PSI and feels AWESOME on the street! So far *knocks on wood* I haven't started slipping the Centerforce Dual Friction clutch yet, but I think I'm near the end of its capabilities LOL.

Didn't really push any oil out my PCV/breather lines and didn't break anything in the engine on the dyno after 11+ pulls so I'm pretty happy.

A video of one of my dyno pulls:

Here's a shot of a graph from one of my pulls:


You can see where it starts losing fuel and torque drops off. I've got a new Walbro 400 LPH in tank pump sitting here that I will drop in in the spring, along with installing a RaceTronix "hotwire" kit to provide the fuel pump the cleanest power possible. Hopefully that will cure my fueling issues. Oh, I'm also running 60 lb injectors in it right now. I had 42 lb ones from a Ford Lightning when I first fired it up, but I started pushing them kind of hard before I even got on the dyno, so I decided 60's would be a much safer idea!

I'm also using a Holley Commander 950 engine management system with an AEM UEGO wideband setup directly connected to it so I can set up the ECU to fine tune for certain AFRs at different rpm/load ranges. I've also got a 3 bar map sensor hooked up to it. Perhaps overkill, but since I'm already at 15 PSI I'm glad I went with the 3 bar

This is still a work in progress (aren't they all?) But so far I've been VERY happy with how well things have worked together. I'm sure there will still be more bugs to iron out, but that's part of the fun! Building stuff, finding problems, making improvements, and fixing stuff!!

-Paul

P.S. the oil drain is -10AN and runs through a 90* elbow off the bottom of the turbo, through the frame rail, and into a fitting I welded onto the front of the oil pan. No smoking issues so far, and seems to drain fine as far as I can tell!

quadgoat

iTrader: (1)

Also, here's a shot of the wastegate plumbing when I was fabbing it up. Plumbed it back into the downpipe, not a big fan of "screamer pipes" LOL!


Some shots of the downpipe. I made it in two pieces so that the lower section can be easily removed (2 v-bands) to allow access to the spark plugs when needed.






At this point the turbo exhaust housing has a turbo blanket on it, and the A/C lines (as well as some wiring) have been covered with either heat reflective tape, or heat reflective sleeve. I also applied adhesive backed heat reflective shield to the bottom of the (fiberglass) hood directly above the turbo to help prevent heat damage there.

Nothing seemed to get too hot or melt when we were playing on the dyno, so at this point I'm saying "so far so good!"

-Paul

GTA Sammy

iTrader: (1)

That's a great build right there!!!
I'm tooo chicken to start a turbo set-up although I've been dreaming about one for a long time...
Congrats

ZZ3Astro

Nice work! What kind of extra cost was involved for the changes to the headers? Are they mild steel or stainless? I see they have a set of D-Port headers that would work well on mine.

Also how was the clearance between the header tubes and the downpipe?

Steve

quadgoat

iTrader: (1)

Thanks guys!

ZZ3Astro: If I remember correctly, the cost wasn't too bad for the modifications. I think they charged me an extra $50. I will look for the invoice and tell you for sure. The headers are mild steel, but I plan to have them ceramic coated at some point. I sprayed them with VHT paint for the time being.

There isn't a TON of clearance between the (3") downpipe and primaries, but enough that nothing is contacting and there are no rattles. Spark plug wires are a tight fit, and I have insulating boots over the spark plug boots as a precaution. I will try to get a better picture of the clearance, if you'd like?

-Paul

ZZ3Astro

Well no hurry but I'll take what you can get! Plug access with my setup is almost zero for #4 and 6. Is it the downpipe that gets in the way of the plugs for you or the primaries? I am hoping that whatever I do for a header allows me good plug access with the DP removed.

Thanks,

Steve

quadgoat

iTrader: (1)

It's the downpipe that's in the way of the plugs. Well, plugs need to be done from underneath with the headers on, so I guess you could say the primaries are in the way too LOL. Plugs are pretty easy from underneath on the driver's side, and after popping two v-band clamps loose and dropping off the rear section of the downpipe the story is basically the same on the passenger side. Granted I haven't actually had to change the plugs yet hahahahaha......

-Paul

sailtexas186548

iTrader: (2)

drivers side is EASY with the Sandersons, I can do all of my passenger side ones with my 3" DP in place from below. I made a couple custom wrenches and sockets with cheap chinese tools to make it easier. Takes about 30 minutes to do both sides now without removing anything

quadgoat

iTrader: (1)

I haven't forgotten about getting you those pictures Steve. I just haven't had the cover off the car. It's been SUPER cold here for the last week or so (single digits above zero during the day and 10-20 below zero at night LOL!) and I haven't spent much time outside hahaha. As soon as I get a chance I will get pictures for you!

-Paul

project89

iTrader: (1)

that intercooler is rather small and is deff going to become a restriction much less remove much heat from the air charge

ZZ3Astro

No worries... will be a while before I get around to doing new headers/manifolds at this rate anyway. Still waiting on my converter install to happen. Was supposed to happen this weekend but the rack got tied up just when we thought it was free.

quadgoat

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, the intercooler's not huge: 29x9x3. Compromises have to be made when you don't want to hack your car to pieces LOL. Primarily the car isn't driven very hard anyway. Watching IATs on the dyno the temps always dropped when boost came on, so it's not too much of an issue, at least at 15 PSI haha. I'm sure it will be a limiting factor, and if I need to push it beyond that I'll change it. That's why I went the eBay route for my first intercooler, so it's not a ton of money out the window if I swap it out

Progress is slow sometimes, Steve. I know how that goes for sure!!

-Paul

DAVECS1

iTrader: (2)

Wow that is an amazing build! I thought about a turbo set up for a while but chickened out and went centrifugal. Nice craftsmenship. It is a challenge to make these cars make huge power, retain all your amenities, and not totally redesign and hack it all up. Hats off.

quadgoat

iTrader: (1)

Thanks Dave! It was certainly a challenge, but I enjoyed it and learned a LOT! I'm still learning a lot as the tuning and tweaking continues. Honestly the hardest part was deciding exactly how and where to mount the turbo so that everything could fit and be plumbed in a somewhat sane manner. Once the turbo was in place everything could be built around and connected to it

The most productive nights of work were when I had an extra friend or two helping brainstorm ideas to make it all work. I definitely had a lot of help and suggestions from great friends that made this build possible!

-Paul

DAVECS1

iTrader: (2)

Yea I hear you on stuffing 10 lbs into a 5 lb bag. For as big as these cars are there sure is not a lot of room when you start adding cool stuff. I have been running the commander 950 for years. I really like it. Simple and effective.

project89

iTrader: (1)

its larger then i thought it was so u will be ok for a lil while till u start to lean on it.having a firebird isnt all to helpfull either since u can only pull air in from the bottom.otherwise id tell u to get the same core i have 32x12x4 it stands up in the nose with only some slight trimming of the hood latch support bracket. but that wouldnt do u any good since u dont have the front opening like a camaro does

quadgoat

iTrader: (1)

Haha yeah, the Firebird nose does limit your options somewhat. The '92 seems to breathe better than my '84 did though!!

Dave - nice to know someone else who's running a C950 with boost! So far it seems to be doing the job just fine. I really like some of the features available on the new Holley systems, but I can't justify $2,000 for the added goodies lol!


-Paul

DAVECS1

iTrader: (2)

Same here. The new ECM is awsome and it will even port your old C950 program over with some tweaks. The price is really steep though considering I can get a C950 for around 250 dollars and it does what I need pretty easy.

I will start seriously looking at the new one if I run out of ignition, as the they can utilize the LSx ignition system.

Yea I am running a 2 bar MAP with WB 02 on my c950 and the car runs great! Idle is a little tricky on a C950 but once you get the hang of it, it aint bad. It helps to run open loop down low to avoid surging and what not, until you find the sweet spot.

tjtaylor

Hey I'm trying to make my merge pipe to the turbo, and I need that two into one flange you have. Any chance you can get me a part number or something so I can pick one up myself? Thanks

quadgoat

iTrader: (1)

The merge pipe is something that was built using part of a y-pipe from a Ford Super Duty header setup and an oval mandrel bent 90* pipe I bought from SpinTech. I don't have any part numbers for a complete merge pipe, most people build their own. I cheated a bit by hacking up that y-pipe that a friend had lying around LOL. Here's a link to the oval 90* bends: http://www.spintechmufflers.com/oval.../prod_181.html

Hope that helps some, let me know if I can help with anything else!

-Paul

gta324

nice build!

I have a future plan of getting twins and place them like you did....

( I have moved my AC closer to the center as a preparation for the tubing on the Pass side)

quadgoat

iTrader: (1)

Thanks! That should be fun! Any idea on an eta for your build? I would have loved to do anaftermarket serpentine setup that was more compact than the factory stuff, but it wasn't in the budget, so here I am with the big ole factory stuff! LOL!

P.S. Steve: I still haven't forgotten about those pictures. It's starting to warm up here so I will try to get them soon!

gta324

Family and house are taking alot of time (and money) right now so I have to settle for the procharger for know still havent pushed the limits of this setup yet

A winter project for 2013/2014 maybe?

Actually It was rather simple to move the AC stuff see if I can get a picture of the bracket I made.

Kingtal0n

I've seen the ebay front mounts (traditional sizes, similar if not exactly what you have) used with between 600-800 horsepower in the past. Changing over to a greddy/HKS/spearco core usually results with more power and less boost pressure at the throttle body, so it seems to be worth it. The IAT's drop more but the quality core is more restrictive, which makes sense since pressure drops more. You can see right through the ebay core, its practically hollow.

your a/c compressor looks like a supercharger haha

calebzman

iTrader: (3)

Great job! I can't wait to see what it will do after the larger fuel pump goes in. Also, any chance you'd be willing to send me your 950 file? I'm curious how it compares to mine.

quadgoat

iTrader: (1)

Kingtal0n You like that big ole compressor, eh? Yessir I got me a turbo'd supercharged full race machine right thurr! LOL It is big and kinda fugly, but man don't I enjoy the A/C on a hot day...my wife and son like it as well!

I definitely realize that the eBay intercoolers are not the best money can buy, but it fit my budget at the time, and I figure if I really get the itch I can always spring for a nice high quality core down the road I'm also just running a stock 4 bolt main '78 truck block, so I'm really pressing my luck if I try to go much past 500 HP at the wheels. Perhaps the IC is a good limiting factor for me there LOL!

calebzman Dropped the tank last weekend and put the 400 LPH pump in (It's actually a 450 LPH, because I bought the e85 version...just in case ). Without even changing the tune the car felt much better and the new fuel pump is even quieter than the old 255 was!! I still have a LOT of work to do on my tune but I can send it to you if you'd like. I'd be interested to see yours as well. PM me your email address if you'd like and I'll send it to you! I gave the car the beans a few times on the way home from putting the fuel pump in and the leanest I saw at WOT under 15 PSI of boost was 10.8:1, so I'm pretty sure my fueling issue is resolved. Now I just need to iron out the tune, and lean it back out a bit. Hopefully I can get some of my fuel economy back at cruise, not that it was ever great, but I won't be able to afford to drive it much this summer at 9 MPG LOL!! Eventually I will bite the bullet and swap in a cam with less overlap, which will help fuel economy and be more turbo friendly. I'm just curious to see what kind of power I can make with the turbo and my lumpy cam :P

-Paul

calebzman

iTrader: (3)

I'm glad the new fuel pump is working well. Any plans on going back to the dyno after you work on the tune? I sent you an email, so hopefully you got it.

For fuel economy, the best I'm able to get is 22mpg highway. That is with 15:1 afr, upper 40's timing advance, and a mild cam.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Nicely done

quadgoat

iTrader: (1)

Thanks Orr!

Caleb - I will be playing on the dyno again once the roads improve up here and I can spend some time tweaking the tune on the street. With my cam I'd be "happy" if I could get 15-20 mpg on the highway (I used to get somewhere in that range when it was N/A). I don't think I'll be able to lean it out as far as 15:1 though, it's just got too much overlap. I plan to eventually do a roller cam conversion with less overlap and more lift, but I'm curious to see how much power I can get out of this cam. It's pretty neat right now because you usually don't hear a car with forced induction and a lumpy cam. At idle people just think it's got a big cam, then when you open it up and she starts to whistle they do a double take

-Paul

Ed1LE

iTrader: (39)

Very nice!

quadgoat

iTrader: (1)

Thank you sir!

tjtaylor

So what was the best et on that lap you blew up on? Did you do 20+ psi on pump gas?? That's amazing I wanna turn the boost up on mine but I'm not sure I won't detonate.

quadgoat

iTrader: (1)

The run I popped the head gasket on wasn't actually my best E.T. It was my best 60' and best trap speed though. That run was a 7.943@94.49 MPH with a 1.918 60'. I had gone to the track a few weeks prior and ran a 7.771@93.8 with a 2.000 60' which was my best E.T.

I had just gotten some Mickey Thompson ET Drag tires before I went to the track and ran the 7.77. Only got 3-4 runs on them total before I popped the head gasket so I was still learning how to launch on the bias plies but they hook AWESOME!

My engine had not originally been set up for boost, so I just had standard FelPro 1003 head gaskets and ARP head bolts. The gasket pushed out on the #6 cylinder running 20 psi of boost. I put MLS head gaskets and head studs in but ever since have had issues with the head studs leaking coolant. I just finished pulling all the studs 1 by 1 and re sealing them with Permatex #2 instead of the ARP Teflon sealant I used the first time. We'll see if it works any better, if not it's going to be aftermarket block time!

I am running on 91 octane pump gas and saw no signs of detonation when I had the heads off. The pistons actually looked awesome. I'm running a fairly conservative tune though, keeping it plenty rich and not going crazy with the timing. I estimate I was somewhere between 450-500rwhp at the track.

-Paul

(Attached a shot showing the head gasket pushed out on the #6 cylinder)

tjtaylor

I'm amazed you ran 20 psi on flat tops. I have dished forged d cup pistons and I'm nervous to push 10 psi.. I guess I can! Your times in the 1/8 are better than mine!

quadgoat

iTrader: (1)

It's more the overall compression ratio you want to be aware of than just flat top vs dished pistons. My engine is around 9.3-9.5:1 compression so it's really not too crazy...

Those are forged pistons I have in there but they're nothing real special. Just gotta do your best to keep the tune safe/detonation free.

-Paul

tjtaylor

Well yes I do know about overall compression, I'm honesty not sure what chamber the heads are that I have but with my guess on there size I should be at 10-1. I need a trans first before I make more power :/ I roasted that t5

formulakeith

Hey thats a great build paul, I'm about to buy this twin turbo kit for an fbody from eworld sales, with mounting the turbos down low, next to the serpentine setup kinda, in my 89, but I may have to get rid of one of the brackets, and I may put my electric water pump drive on to clear up more room. They're decent small turbos and can run 8psi, they are internally wastgated, so I can't run more than 8psi, but for my 305tpi on a big intercooler and methanol injected, should be fine. On my 357 when that motors done, 8psi should be good, on some properly built motors, on 4-6psi on a mustang 5.0 they make 550hp on 42lb'hr injectors, so I'm gonna put the adjustable fuel pressure regulator on my motor, and my new walbro 255lph pump should easily be able to handle this turbo setup. Some guys have run a 600hp motor and ran a 250 wet shot and run low 9's, so your pump probly just went bad prior to the build. My stock pump went out after I did my cam install in 2010 on my old L98. But hows this build going so far? I'd like to add some photos, but I'm not sure of how to on here, I got a big intercooler, about 30" long 4" thick, 12" high, and 3" inlet and outlet, its basically good for a lot of hp

89gta383

iTrader: (5)

What is the part number on the sanderson headers you used?

Did you ever try to mount them with the collector facing down? Just wondering if you could run the exhaust under the car instead of over?

quadgoat

iTrader: (1)

They are the CC2_158 Headers. CC2 1 5/8" primary headers. I actually had Sanderson install the flanges upside down so that the cutouts on them would clear the coolant temp sensor in the cylinder head. I also had Sanderson install v band flanges on the collectors instead of the traditional 3 hole header flange. Their original design of the cc2 header is with the collector facing down but it would be pretty difficult to run the piping underneath the car and have room for A/C, crossover pipe, and downpipe. If you don't want to keep A/,C running the crossover underneath is certainly a viable option due to the space you free up. From a serviceability standpoint I really haven't lost much because it all comes apart SO easily due to all the v-band flanges I used. If I turned the headers the "correct" way over the driver's side one would be right into my downpipe lol.

I actually borrowed the idea for these headers from Alex (sailtexas186548 on here) and I have been very happy with how they've worked so far.

I have the car running again now and so far it looks like I have my head stud leaks cured. I'm keeping my fingers crossed and staying optimistic!

-Paul

project89

iTrader: (1)

lol i run the same piston but hypers and the same headgaskets in my new engine im putting together

my old motor weas same gasket but a forged popup dome piston , i had that over 20 psi , even sprayed it with nitrous and the gasket never poped guess i got lucky

witht he hyper pistons i like having a weaker gasket , since the gasket should go before a piston

quadgoat

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, I've had that thought about the head gasket being a fuse to "protect" the engine. I wanted to push this a little further though so I decided to do the MLS gaskets. Probably the 1003s with head studs would work pretty well too though.

I really need to start saving for an aftermarket block and better rotating assembly if I want to get much more stupid with this thing, otherwise I'll be picking pieces up off the ground lol! I want to upgrade to the new Holley HP EFI also. The C950 works, but I could really take advantage of the newer system!


It's only money, right??

-Paul

quadgoat

iTrader: (1)

Got the head studs all re sealed using Permatex #2 instead of the useless ARP Teflon sealant I bought when I bought the studs. I did the final valve adjustment yesterday afternoon and took the car for a little rip. Everything seems good so far, cold pavement renders 1st-3rd gears virtually useless but it's plenty fun!

My only concern is that when I removed the right valve cover I found one small puddle of coolant by the front head bolt hole. I am not sure if it was residue I didn't get cleaned up from before or if I still have a slight leak on the right side, I will have to keep an eye on it. There are NO external leaks at this time and the car seems to be running great. We got an inch or so of snow today so the roads will be a mess for a while and the car will sit in the garage. I am cautiously optimistic that she's finally back to 100%!

-Paul

formulakeith

I bought the twin turbos with upward facing headers and wastgates for my setup, since others didn't like that forward style headers, I don't want trouble with serpentine setup or steering or other things, so I chose to cut holes in the hood too. I'm about to order a 50mm bov too, turbos come next monday

Mirror Image

iTrader: (2)

You car is bad Im going to be doing a rear turbo setup on mine this spring it is a 76 MM and I also like your wheels what are they ??

quadgoat

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the compliments! The wheels are 18" ROH RT's. I am not sure if they are still readily available here or not. I had heard that whoever was importing them from Australia wasn't doing so anymore, but I haven't tried to buy any more of them, so I can't say for sure!


Good luck with your turbo build, looking forward to seeing a thread on here about it! Send me a link when you get started.


-Paul

Mirror Image

iTrader: (2)

Thanks I would love to have a set of your wheels and I will let you know when I start on the car

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

So where do I get the 400LPH pump ?

I have a 255LPH as well and I think it will starve on the upper end of my T76.

-- Joe