Yenko: If you want me to split off the ECM related posts into another thread let me know.

-- Joe

 

Negative...good information here...I'm still trying to decide what is best. I'm running the Super AUJP right now still but about to make a change as I just received my 63 lb/hr injectors in the mail today.

I talked with a company that does MS stuff but he said he doesn't have a plug and play system that uses the 7730 wiring harness. So, I would have to convert to another wiring harness then use that one or convert completely to a MS setup. Eventhough it would definitely be a more advanced system, don't know what would be better for the price but more importantly the work to put in.

 

Can you get the MS connectors required and then just move the 730 pins over to the appropriate locations? I assume they have pinouts or a way to assign pins to outputs?

 

I really wouldn't refer to the MS as a more advanced system, it just takes different steps to achieve the same results. Bailey's new Speed Density chip, yes chip, uses a 17 x 17 table programmable through his Power Logger which is more than XFI's 16 x 16 table, and I would never refer to Bailey's concoction as advanced, it just gets the job done in its' own way. Bruce Plecan was right when he said that there isn't anything an aftermarket ECM can do that a stock ECM can't be programmed to do, and that's the truth. In the end though, you gotta go with whatever makes you happy...

 

My car is an '88, so my harness just had the two connectors. I used the Micro module installed in an old '746 ECM case:

http://members.cisdi.com/~anesthes/p...om/megasquirt/

Unfortunately, as far as I'm aware nobody sells an aftermarket '730/'749 ECM header as the Delphi56 header was much more common.

-- Joe

 

Let's see you mimic the same features of Windows8 on a commodore 64 then...

In theory, I get what Bruce was saying it's just software. But the MS has a faster processor, more memory, more inputs/outputs, and since it's written in C any idiot can modify it vs the few assembler gods we have on the forum.

As it stands, most of the aftermarket stuff, specifically MS has more functionality (some of which can be considered advanced because it wasn't available in the 80s) than the stock stuff. While, obviously folks like Rbob cam mimic some of this functionality by integrating additional hardware piggybacked to the ECM thus proving the spirit of Bruce's point to be true, I'm not sure we're comparing apples to apples.

I spent a lot of time pondering this last year when I started the new build, and I was a die hard prom guy. The more I looked into MS the more I realized it was light years ahead of anything I could do with even the most highly modified stock stuff. Waiting 6-8 months for guys to get a minor patch to work on SAUJP vs the 5 minutes it takes me to make a logic change or add a feature to MS since it's written in very well commented C.

-- Joe

 

...

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/thr...g-soon.395103/

 

Interesting for sure but my combo has lean problems at 1800 and 2200 rpms where it needs more fuel but this only can tune properly 1600 and 2000 and 2400 rpms. How would it fine tune these areas like S. AUJP? Obviously, there are more details to be worked out but any engine can run on a program but after tuning on OBD-I and OBD-II with Hp Tuners....I'd much rather tune on OBD-II with a E67 or 2002+ ECM as the data points react much faster then 411 pcms as well as being able to control the injectors in different voltage settings makes the tuning process that much more enjoyable in the end because you can fine tune every detail perfectly and can be ran in closed loop on good size camshafts.

Thus, up to the operator which one he/she feels better with modifying to their vehicle.

 

Yeah, I think he said he had it for the 165 ecm so....haven't looked into how much of a swap that would be but that did have a MAF on it which I don't use.

 

The EBL products have higher resolution VE tables then s_aujp. At the lower RPM it is every 100 RPM from 400 - 2000 RPM. Then every 200 RPM from 2000 to 3600 where it is then every 400 RPM to 6000 RPM and every 500 RPM from there to 8000 RPM.

So it is easy to tune the rich/lean areas where it counts for drive-ability. No need for this high of a resolution at the mid to higher range of RPM. By then the engine is up on the cam (or boost) and making power.

The E67 or 2002+ PCM is a good choice. There is a distinct difference between the EBL products and going with something else. They are intended to be plug & play and offer good features and ease of tuning. Not everyone wants to write their own code or even swap a harness and get into re-wiring the EFI set up.

RBob.

 

How much faster do you need in ecm capability? I didnt think the 411 would be slow. Seen that ecm used in many applications over 600-800 whp. I hope to use it on mine for 1000-1100 if my fuel system allows me to. I figured the '92 ecm 730 was primitive but still enough to give good driveability with 115 lb injectors 245cc heads and .640" cam. 800 hp was no problem.

Really wish i would have looked more into EBL. I always thought it was more for tbi since thats all i seen running it until last year i started hearing about mpfi type builds using it. Seems to offer all the features i wished code 59 would have offered in the 730 ecm

 

If it was between EBL and $59, the winner is EBL. My problem with EBL, mainly, was it's "Flash based"..

I'm well aware that some folks have no need to tune in realtime, so that might not be as big of a deal to others.

I went with MS because I wanted an all in one app tuning solution, that was realtime. I figured the additional labor upfront to make a plug-n-play ECM was worth it over the time saved and friendlyness of tunerstudio. When I started using the software and seeing how to make both configuration and logical changes I fell in love with the system.

Their are some things MS doesn't do as well as OEM stuff, for example MS2 doesn't have a VSS based throttle follower, and the idle control is quite basic. But in other ways it's light years ahead of diy_prom.

As far as plug-n-play with a '730 harness, I don't know. The connectors are not available. I guess you could take a '730 and unsolder the connector and make a bridge.

-- Joe

 

Sorry, need to be more specific. Compared to the 2002+ or E67, the 411 pcm is slow. However, compared to an OBD-I computer, the 411 rates are faster in datalogging but at technology improves, so does the rates. The 411 pcm should be able to do everything you want but like I said, tuning all of them, the 2002+ and E67 are the easiest to fine tune all the details and make it run really well. For example, tuning a cammed engine on a 2000 takes me longer to fine tune the idle as a 2002+ as the IAC rates in datalogging are slower to come up thus giving the desired idle min air that is preset into the computer.

I'm really thinking about going with the EBL as it's a true plug and play and it has it's own Datalogging which I'm having trouble reading the ALDL port and it's a true plug and play system.

 

Well if they have a 165 ecm plug and play how hard can it be to do 730? Theres not to many changes to repin 165 to 730 which is what i have lol add 3rd connector and move few pins. Pretty basic. Less complicated than an ls1 ecm i just built a harness for now. But the difference there is just few additional sensors and individual pins for all injector and coils for sequential stuff and coil packs

 

Everybody on this board should be running EBL-P4, even the Turbo Buick crowd knows this. I'm always teasing those guys too, I'll send them links like this (Click Here, with the chorus part from Metallica's Master of Puppets "obey your Master" playing in the background lol. Everybody learned from Bob, and he is twenty steps ahead of all of them. EBL-P4 is the way to go...

 

I think that's a little bit of a wide brush to paint. While I think that the majority of folks that would otherwise use a stock ECM and build proms could benefit from switching to an EBL, I'm sure lots of folks would be burdened with it's limitations as well.

Like RBob said, the EBL is a different animal and shouldn't be widely compared against everything else their is.


-- Joe

 

Remember Joe, Thirdgen.org should be family oriented, and one thing Bob didn't do... is leave. Eric Marshall sourced Bob when he was starting with his chip tuning, he even admitted to hanging around here for that very reason in the thread from the post that I linked, and he brought what he learned over to TurboBuick.com, and that website grew with him since. Everybody sourced Bob, the archives underline it. Bob could have finalized $60 if he wanted to, Bob could have created a boost code for $8D years ago, but he did something better, he gave us the EBL-P4 so we didn't need to bother with chips anymore, and its constantly improving. He's already working on the suggestions for the features that current EBL owners have mentioned, and its just a matter of time. And guess what, while he is working on delivering those features to us, he still finds the time to moderate and give tuning advice on our forums, and he gives that advice freely! Megasquirt is a great system, I won't deny that, but what did the folks who created Megasquirt ever do for Thirdgen.org other than sell a product? What do they do for us.... now?

 

Now you make me feel guilty for ditching oem ecm

 

You have to admit Justin, Bob Rauscher started all of this, you know he did, I know he did, and even Bruce Plecan knew he did. Hell, everybody in the Turbo Buick world knows what Bob brought to the table, that's why they're stunned that we're still fiddling around with chips and codes when Bob gave us the EBL-P4. Some of our members took what they learned from him over the years and ran with it, and some just have so much of an ego they simply refuse to give credit where credit is due. This whole damn website should be running EBL. I will be running it without question because their is no tuner or code writer alive better than Bob, and you know I am not just saying that...

 

Well, I have the ultimate respect for RBob and what he's done. He's the go to guy when it comes to OEM Delco stuff, and has always contributed to the forums. I just prefer MS to EBL, just like I prefer building Firebirds and using Camaro's as parts cars/sending them to the crusher

But to say Bowling and Grippo haven't contributed to EFI as a whole is not correct.

-- Joe

 

I will do my 411 24x thing for now because its unique and i have a fantastic ls tuner available to me, plus i have 2 other lsx cars which use hp tuners so in a way it makes sense for me to have all ls based ecms. I will likely purchase hp tuners to do some of the basic work and tune adjustments so i can learn the software. But my friend will likely finish off my tune

However its very easy to unplug this harness and throw in a tpi based one for ebl. I will likely have a spare 730 92 sd harness and my 89 maf converted to sd harness i can use for ebl if i ever try it again. Probably buyin a 305 motor to play with next yr or 2. Lol gonna be fun

 

Ok, just so I can get this thing running for right now until I upgrade to EBL or MS....what do I need to do to swap to the Code 59 from the 7730 ECM? I've read several things but mostly was just buy a 3 Bar map sensor and move the ALDL port but the rest should be fine if your wiring harness has been wired for the 7730 ECM.

Can anyone verify this so I can get it running for right now?

 

That pretty much the just of it. You'll have to pick out a few things in the code for WB02 setting if you have it hooked up, possible speedo settings and make sure you have your base timing correct. Guess after that is burn your chip and see what happens.

What's your current engine combo if you don't mind me asking?

 

PM you!

 

Ok, going to try and go to the parts store and pick up a 3 Bar....did any GM vehicle come with a 3 Bar Map sensor (Grand National, SY, TY)?

 

I just bought the diyautotune 3 bar and pigtail. I dont recall many pin changes to get it to work

 

It's running....got the 63s swapped in and Super AUJP didn't even want to run it. Switched over to Code59 running a 1 bar map sensor until my 3 bar comes in and it's running like a champ! Big thanks to Tony89GTA for hooking me up with a sweet starting tune. It's close at idle but got some work to do with my 383 needing a bit more fuel than his 355.

3 core intercooler was bought as well and I'll be hooking that up sometime soon

 

Good to hear! Had good luck with $59 with my 80's and 115 lbs injectors. Not a bad system once you dial in the ve tables.

You using the closed throttle table for idle?

 

I know you guys are talking about fule injection but I just wanted to jump in the mix about brackets.

I run serpentine stock stuff, with the procharger bracket (the crappy one) with alt bracket. It is a 12 rib. I am shooting for 14 psi and I only made it to 6 on the dyno. Not sure why.

Closing on a house at the end of this month, then diving back into the car. Going to try really hard to nail down what the issue is, but if you guys could post your "good" setups that would help me out, and all of us out I think.

Pics and detailed bracket setups would be nice to see!

Thanks.

 

Hey Dennis,

Where are you moving to?

I'm having this same issue. I'm getting belt walking again which is pissing me off. I'm half tempted to put this whole setup on ebay and pickup a vortech. About the only thing preventing me right now from switching head units is I like the fact that it's self contained.

-- Joe

 

I've only ever had luck with a 3.7" or 4" pulley and with the stock crank 7.62" where it was reliable enough to use. This is with a 12 rib setup, the only difference in the system I have is a custom bigger tensioner pulley to give the belt more squeeze. Yesterday I tried to run a 3.4" pulley but after awhile of stepping on it the belt shredded. 12 rib belts for me are not cheap cause of all the shipping charges, it pissed me off so much yesterday I was thinking of going turbo and say to hell with the system. It seems the harder you want to spin the blower the more problems you run into.

So Joe, what makes the Vortech setup so much better? I have never really seen a good pic of it myself.

 

I had to check my pulley alignment. The supercharger was actually too far inward so I had to mill down the spacers from .75 to .60 as I was one rib too far back and riding on the back of the crank pulley. Also had to shave the back side of the pulley spacer down so it would sit flush on the pulley. Right now, I am running the 8 rib setup and the belt is half way on the idler pulleys so it's riding perfect right now. I do have a bit of belt slip but it's because I could only find a 66.25" belt for my 4.25" pulley setup. I just ordered a Goodyear Gatorback in a 66" form so I shouldn't have any more belt slippage. There are two companies that make no slip pulleys from 3.25 to 3.75 so y'all might want to investigate that. Some people that have used them said they have less belt slippage which makes more boost usually 2-3 psi for the same size unless they pulley down which would make more obviously.

I just made a cold air box with a big dry flow filter as well which helped lowered the IATs a bit without the intercooler.

 

I believe I'm using the closed throttle table for idle....Code 59 is new so I'm trying to learn it quickly!

 

Much better bracket design. BRacket moves alternator lower, and bolts directly to head using a 1 pc cast bracket and plate, rather than spacers and long bolts that bend.







Both of those were my previous cars, with Vortech. Only complaint was the dumb oil feed setup and return.

-- Joe

 

I done some digging and found some pic's as well, the alt does get moved right out of the way.

 

I rent in Dedham MA now and am buying a house in Milford MA. Should finally be able to dive back into my F1 project car and figure out how to get some added braces on this thing so I can at least have a month of driving before it has to go back inside for the winter.


Great pictures. Def easy to see why Vortec brackets are better.