Hello everyone, I am looking for some help, and ideas. I recently got a new(to me) '88 Iroc with the LB9 HO 305, as well as a 5 speed trans. I have the G92 package as well.

Now, what I am eventually planning is a turbo LS build, but I can't afford that this year, so I am looking to make 300WHP and get at least 16MPG City, and 18-22 Highway.

I was thinking about this, and was wondering if I could do a turbo set up and achieve this? I have no knowledge on turbos or anything of that sort, and I have no idea about the computer and higher tech of these engines.

I do have a 350 Vortec as well, but I feel that would be harder to gain these numbers from. However I was considering taking the heads from it.

What I am looking for here, is really a build list and guide to either turbo my stock LB9 to get up to 300WHP or somehow get the 350 to achieve that.

Any help anyone?

 

A turbo is not the right way to achieve your goal IMO. Far to much $ and time involved only to redo it all later

If i were in your shoes I would do a budget LS swap and leave it NA. That will get you through the LS swap part of your end goal, and you will get an efficient engine with EFI (milage) and it will make decent power.

Otherwise i would try to squeeze the power/mileage out of it with a good tune. The mileage and power combo will be harder to achieve with the 305 than the vortech 350 but I would wager either is doable.

 

I did decide to go the 350 route, but wanna help me out in building that instead? Still wouldn't know where to start. I'd end up with 400HP and 3-5 MPG lol

 

Ls swap it now, as was said above. You dont even have a good injection setup to work with right now.... I would at least want a tpi.
I would swap a 5.3 in there and call it a day for awhile. Save up for the turbo stuff. I would imagine a stock 5.3/5 speed could knock down 30mpg in a 3rd gen. Not sure what would be needed to adapt trans to engine. Small cam in a 5.3 would make more than 300whp.

 

I agree with above. For that power level its not worth the headache. Toss in a 5.3L and call it a day. You will get reliable 300hp n/a stock. When you save up then all you have to do is fab up the turbo setup. At least you will know you have a running car and 3/4 of the battle is done.

Jay

 

LB9 is a 305 TPI engine with 190 bhp. You want 300/.85 = 350 bhp. That is 350/190 = 1.85 boost ratio. That is about 13 psi of boost. You will need either an aftercooler or water/meth injection.

Cheap and simple 300WHP list:

used saturated injectors that are 30#/hr or greater (Ford red tops cheap) $100
1/8" steel line for oil feed and brass fittings $30
5/8" hydraulic hose and piece of pipe to weld on pan and make turbo oil out $30
10 feet of 2" pipe to make stock manifold to turbo inlet pipes ($20) - 45 cuts to make bends
4 feet of 3" or 2.5" pipe to make downpipe ($20)- 45 cuts to make bends
On3 70mm or GT45 ebay turbo with out flange and clamp $250
4 feet of 2.5" pipe for turbo compressor to intake ($20)- 45 cuts to make bends
2.5" silicone couplers and clamps ($25)
meth pump $100
McMaster/Lowes brass fittings for meth setup $40
Misc relay and circuit parts to make trigger for meth pump ($10)
Install $12 code in your ECM and get adapter for flash chips ($50)
14point7 WBO2 DIY kit with sensor ($85)

around 700 bux total (around the cost of installing an LM7 engine)

Or do this:
Leave stock injectors and get nitrous fuel solenoid. Hobb switch or DIY ckt to turn on solenoid at 6PSI of boost and it sprays enough fuel for 12PSI of boost. Save 50 bucks there.
Use stock NBO2 or borrow WBO2 kit. Save 85 there.
Get junkyard exhaust pipe instead of buying new. Save 100 there.

So 700- (50+85+100) = $495

Cheap kit means you make up for dollars spent doing most of the work like fabbing all your bends out of 45* cuts. Make your own turbo inlet exhaust flange, make your own oil flanges.

 

I misread above, I saw HO and thought carb.
Turbo kit would make tons o torque but pretty involved and wont work with the ls.

 

I love these "I want 300hp" (or whatever hp) questions...

What does 300hp get you, bragging rights? Most of the people with 3, 4, 500hp builds end up running 14's or 15's when they finally take it to the track.

This is my stock, 122K mile, oil burning 87 LB9 (305 TPI) and a set of headers... and I'll bet that it will beat 90% of the <500hp builds on the internet and meat your mpg goals:

(I won't get into what was wrong with it on that pass and why it _should_ have run faster, but you can hear it popping in the burnout box)

I'm fairly certain that I could get it in the 12's without costing any significant mpg... and I'm almost positive that is significantly faster than you were hoping to go with your listed goals.

You should be able to get that mpg with either the 305 or the vortec 350 without going to any crazy lengths, and go quite fast (for a street car). If that's all you want and want to discuss it give some more details, and you can skip the turbo build, vortec or LS swap...

 

What's $12? I guess I stopped looking at gm ecm stuff a couple of years ago...

LOL, for a really cheap build I'm a big fan of a hobbs switch and a fuel solenoid for a cheap build. For something as mild as what he lists as his goal I'd probably look at something like an HX 35 or HY35 or later turbo off a cummins dodge. You should be able to get one cheap, it will move plenty of air to make that hp and will spool super fast on an engine that big... the end result will be light switch quick boost and you really won't need more granular fueling than the fuel solenoid, nozzle and a 150-200hp jet in the line.

Of course, this setup will get lower mpg than NA and be much more work... but it would be cool and JY fabulous

 

I'm not looking for bragging rights, I just want to be able to hold my own against more modern cars. Such as the new v6 camaro or earlier 2000 mustangs.

I don't want to have shitty fuel efficiency and lose races lol.

So I'm all ears to all different plans.

 

The $12 code is MAP based for the 165 ECM. It was enhanced to handle 2 or 3 BAR.
http://pcmhacking.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=1089
http://pcmhacking.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=3051 -- view PDF for tuning boost

Love JY setups using what is lying around and what y'all have for tools or friends with tools. If he has a used free turbo with a compressor wheel anywhere from 52mm to 70mm I would run it and just live with the turbine it has. Could end up with either a quick spool or top end build but who cares for free. If I had to pay then I would do the on3 70mm or GT45.

Find donor vehicles and get:
Exhaust piping to make all hot side and cold side piping
Piece of rubber oil line from a diesel shop or JY for the oil return coupler (Lowes EMT pipe for the steel)
Used brake line to make oil inlet
Used injectors instead of hobbs sw and N2O solenoid. Put 2 injectors in charge pipe and activate as different boost levels via $10 ckt brd

The NA fuel should be the same mpg.

 

Install a different fuel system and controller. It would make more sense to install the Gen3 engine along with its fuel system and controller.

 

Why not build the car to be a drag car, and by a commuter vehicle that gets good fuel economy?


-- Joe

 

Because I already have a winter beater that's good on gas, and a drag car project.

I want a daily driver from spring to fall that I can have fun in, and not have to worry about breaking the bank with gas. Plus would you rather drive an '04 grand am around town? Or an '88 Iroc? It's obvious.

Power and fuel efficiency can work. This build is to just get me by for the summer until I can afford the LS build where this wont be an issue.

It doesn't HAVE to be turbo anymore. I am just looking for the power and economy in any way possible without busting the bank.

 

Honestly? I'd rather drive the '04. Even fully restored to 'new' condition, a thirdgen is an old 80s car. It handles like one, drives like one, and has options and features like one. Even my fourth gen has become 'dated' and 'outhandled' by even a cheap import car these days.

I agree, which is why I've been looking at new Corvettes. I can get a stingray convertible for low 60s.

What is your budget? 10 grand? 15 grand? Are you good at fabricating/welding?

-- Joe

 

Well my goal IN THE END is to have options, power, and handling comparable to a new car. I don't see why it couldn't be done. My budget for this year I wanna keep under 2 grand.

Yes I can do fab and metal work if need be.

Eventually I would want an LS3 from a new camaro/corvette and I would bring all the tech I could along with it.

 

Well, the handling options and all that is another debate for another thread.

For 2 grand you can fabricate or buy some turbo headers and run a small T70 or so. Will even have enough money left over for a Megasquirt, which you will re-use when you do the LSx swap.

The SSAC headers for two something will work if you fix the #8 primary.


-- Joe

 

Well, you'll have to remember that the newer cars make more hp and are enormously heavy... they don't actually tend to be fast. I did some quick googling for times for a 2012 camaro (in '12 they got 11 more hp), and got that most people are happy to run a 14.3-14.6 in them, and the fastest I saw anyone claiming was a 14.2x... I did find an STS one (rear mount turbo) that was bragging about running 13.5-13.7 all day at the track...

That said, my LB9 will hand them their *** to the tune of 1/2-1 whole second, which is light years difference, and on that day would have been running neck and neck with the STS turboed one. On that day I also had my coil wire popping off (watch and listen to that video again, in the burn out box the car was popping and backfiring, wouldn't spin it's tires over 3200-3400rpm, later on a friend found the coil wire sitting next to the coil tower, we coudn't figure out how it was still running), and it had a very conservative fuel map in it. I'm guessing both would be worth a couple of tenths. A stock clutch would give it a harder launch... basically I'm saying that I would feel very safe in saying that I would cross the line a full second faster than a stock 2012-current V6 camaro, and even slightly ahead of an STS charged one in my 122K mile, oil burning LB9.

What do you need- headers, cat-back, good tires, tuning skills and good driving skills. Anything more that you can add to it is icing on the cake (and I could make lots of suggestions depending on how your car is currently equipped).

Oh, and MPG- I've been getting 19-22 driving around in DC Metro area traffic (for those not familiar with the area, you have to get quite a bit outside of town to get anything resembling "highway" miles, and this thing hasn't seen more than a handful of them for the last couple of years).

YMMV- I would argue that I'm better at this than most people to the point that many people have a hard time believing some of the numbers I've run, but at least I'm consistent, I do it in _everything_ that I take to track.

 

They run about the same, or a little faster, than a L98 thirdgen. They are a little heavier, handle better, have nicer interiors, more options, they don't rattle, etc. Comparing new cars to old cars is silly..


Either way, both are slow. It's 2015, if you are not trapping 130+mph in the 1/4 you need a new ride

-- Joe

 

I hope you mean v6 camaros.

New 5th gens are low 13's high 12's well driven. Headers exhaust intake tune makes 400-420 whp depending on trans and etc. run mid 12's at 113 on 20" street tire well driven manual car.

They aint slow.

 

Yeah he's talking about V6 Camaros.

-- Joe

 

Headers and Catback would do it? I have the G92 5Speed '88 Iroc I believe my car has 220HP?

It's a stock car to my knowledge I am still waiting for it to get shipped up from Texas.

 

220hp? Maybe when it was new. Hows the compression? Old tired engine.

-- Joe

 

Compression seems fine, doesn't leak or burn oil, i'd say it runs pretty strong.

 

You mentioned 2K to spend on it. It that the total amount to spend on it assuming when you get it that it doesn't need anything? If so, you can build a decent turbo system for under 1500 that will meet your fwhp and mpg requirements.

 

Yes, he asked about v6 camaros and mustangs so i answered about v6 camaros and mustangs.

I never know how to answer these questions, I can tell people what I've run with what, and I always get people pulling out the BS meter, even if I can prove it (there's 2 other treads in different places on the 'net right now, one about fastest stock interal 305 and a second that turned into a what can a 2012 SHO run where all I did was posted what I ran and they've turned into arguments). I could always post "I'd run x, you'll likely run .5-1 second slower," and I'm sure that will start "well what makes you so special" or "LOL, he thinks he's going to run a second faster than everyone else with a 'driver mod'." or whatever...

Eh, the compression in my 122K mile '87 is marginal (but at least consistent from hole to hole), it burns about a quart of oil every 500-1000miles, you should have seen the plugs that I pulled out of the thing (surprisingly not consistent from hole to hole). It still runs OK, a little embarrassing when I first start it up or if I sit idling too long, but it runs well enough as long as I keep an extra quart of oil in the back seat ;-)

This is the thing, the goal is non specific enough and not that fast or that high an MPG that everyone has a different opinion about how to do it, because we all have our "thing" that we like.

If that's $2K after getting everything tuned right... well go for it, if you want a turbo build do a cheap turbo build. someone that knows what they're doing/has parts sitting around (I have 2 or 3 appropriately sized turbos in the basement, a few different manifolds I could start with to make some cheap turbo manifolds, and even a set of 3/8" flanges and weld-els, I have half a dozen gm ecms 2 or 3 good harnesses and a MS and now a MicroSquirt sitting around, as well as a NX wet nitrous system I could use to add fuel if I wanted to go cheap and butch...) could do it for very cheap, for 2K you could also get a set of TFS heads, cam, headers... and run in the low 12's (I'd run in the 11's ), heck, I have some decent heads that would work, a couple of used (and 2 new) cams sitting around... Heck, for $2K I could do both to it.

If we had someone in here that was an N2O fan we might be hearing "spray it..."

Honestly, 3 or 4 of the people replying to this thread could go VERY fast in this car for just about no money, and I'm not sure debating which one of us could do it in the best way really makes sense, he's not likely to reproduce what any of us would do for that $, even if it seems simple to us.

That brings me back to what I think makes the most sense for him, and that's do headers, exhaust, basic bolt ons (if it's an auto a converter)... and get it running _right_. That will get him the MPG and performance to beat a newer V6 car and for most people fun enough to drive till you can do more. If he really wants to do a turbo setup, well skip the headers, slap together some cheap manifolds and a turbo.... All parts that can be bought used and sold for what you bought them for when you're done with them, or used again further down the road if he wants to go serious turbo setup, vortec swap, or LS swap (yuck :\ ).

 

spray it

 

I have a manual, what other bolt ons would you suggest?

Cause I am also going 100% suspension this year.

 

And that is why I'm just along for the entertainment aspect of the post, before I finally move it to another forum.

His questions are too general. He needs to spend the next year reading and then come back and ask specific questions once he has chosen a path for the car. Then, the whole "I want to go fast and have good fuel economy" is just a big bahh.. You know what, I want to marry a super model who can cook and clean and has a good heart. Don't think that's in the cards either.

If I was him, I'd probably do a single ebay GT45 1.05 a/r, a cheap ebay FMU, and lock his timing in and beat the crap out of it until it explodes. Then do a 6.0 swap. Heck, it might even last the summer if he keeps the timing reasonable.

Those LT1 manifolds I used for my single came out pretty darn good. If he can weld/fabricate then his $2,000 could turn it into a 500hp L98..

-- Joe

 

Bolts on are nice, but the problem is you always end up wanting more HP. The bolt-ons start out cheap, and then you advance to the 500-1000 set of heads, 500 intake, etc. Before ya know it you get an extra 80hp spinning a stock bottom end to 6000+ rpm which makes it short lived.

The nice thing about boost is that you spend the 2K up front, then pick the HP you want. Pump gas on that motor with stock cam can go to about 15psi with water/alky injection. That is about 400 bhp. Want more? put some GT260 in it and turn up the boost to get 500hp out of it. All done spinning it up to the stock redline under 5000 rpm. 250hp for $2K instead of 80hp for 2K spun to 6000 rpm.

Not sayin boost is for him, but it is the best bang for the buck in the long run. And heck, arm chair building an engine is easy and fun.

83 Crossfire TA,
Do you know the history of that engine in the car you posted a run? I am guessing it is a stick car and you weren't afraid of scattering that rear at launch to get it to run that number.

Anesthes,
Do you have any pics of what you did with the bolt hole move/enlonge on the LT1 manifolds to make it fit Gen1 heads?

 

I can take picture, but I just slotted them all the way over with the grinder. Took a minute each. I just have to do the crossover and they are done. Stupid cheap, nice and tight against the motor, and supposedly they flow ok. I figure 600hp out of my 412 and T76 won't be an issue?

-- Joe

 

Yeah 350 vortec cam only can likely get near 300 whp while keeping mileage. Its gonna be all in the tune and how you drive it. A real hot setup be something like a afr 180 head or their 190 vortecs with a stockish cam. Mild enough to make good power as you are letting the heads make the power and not running alot of cam overlap. That way you are not using fuel at idle to 2000 rpms where most driving occurs. Stock vortecs may need 10-15 deg more duration to make up for the power difference in the heads alone

Na is simpler but i have soft spot for boost and why my dd 91 z is getting a turbo

 

I like the 350 vortec with used LT1 cam for a budget build. The only bad part is the expensive EFI intake. I built a jig to drill the vortec heads for 8 bolt cheapo EFI intake (china single plane, TPI, etc). The timing chain setup works but isn't the greatest for the money. The factory injection is horrible.

Still hard to beat a 150K+ mile LSx drop in with a trans adapter and engine plates.

 

Yea, but he's not asking for a ton of power, and in the mean time he can figure out where he's going with the thing.

huh, I've spun stock bottom ends to 6500+rpm for years with no issues, but maybe I'm just getting lucky.

I agree with what you're saying, the thing is that it's unnecessary to get it to run with a modern V6.

Intimately no- I'm sort of the second and a half owner, the original owner gave it to her mechanic to sell it for her after she backed it into something and then ran something over, and the car was painfully stock, I mean almost everything. He bragged about upgrading it to a "race clutch" (from the way it drives lightweight flywheel/kevlar clutch, it sucks, it won't launch), there's a few jy parts on it (stock numbers marked in paint marker, things like the wiper motor), and a ridiculous pink anodized shift **** but otherwise when I bought it everything else that I've seen was stock, down to the exhaust, manifolds, intake, stock ecm/chip, I pulled a valve cover and everything in there looks right, including the head castings... and 120K oil burning miles

I have no fear about breaking the rear because I beat on the original till it was unhappy so I pulled a way overbuilt 9" (locker/35 spline axles...) out of the garage and stuck it under it, but I'm sure that isn't making it go faster (I'm guessing 80# heavier, worse efficiency...), I'll need it eventually in the car anyway...

Anyway, I plan on pulling top end apart very soon (as soon as I get the last few parts lined up, hopefully the next few days) and swapping cam and intake (I might swap heads for something I have sitting in the basement), but at that point I'll be reasonably certain if anything has been changed internally.

For fuel efficiency the hot ticket would be a set of carefully worked stock iron heads... they'll keep more heat in the chambers the small afrs or some fastburns or something would be a really nice choice

I keep hearing you mention that thing, do you have a build thread or are you documenting what you're doing somewhere?

 

Lol havent started a thread yet since its a very slow progress build lol black car takes priority and most of my money lol. If i had left it alone i would have finished the blue 91 car