86Z

iTrader: (4)

i had to have my procharger rebuilt due to the impeller bolt falling out. got it back from ATI.... this car will never be where i want it to be... all the money spent upgrading... i bought a c6 grand sport with 6 speed and all i can say is wow! outta the box this car is nasty.

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

And now it's for sale?

ZZ42Fast

iTrader: (2)

86Z sorry to hear this. Your set up is close to mine. What were the main issues before this? I thought you had it sorted?

86Z

iTrader: (4)

thanks guys...


it's just frustrating... the car runs really hot under the hood.. i put in some dodge intrepid fans and it's keeping the radiator cool.. at idle in the driveway using code59 it will purr like a kitten... then all the sudden afr's will swing between 13 and 17... normal driving is just poor... i guess i'm just older i wanna get in and drive.. i can do that with the vette.

i installed a TKO600 and the thing has around 2k or less miles on it... the front tires are like new... they were installed in 2004... that gives you an idea of how much it's driven.. i decide i didn't want to have a garage car with money in it.

going to sell the procharger as a kit... either part out or sell the car itself.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I used to have that same swinging afr problem

I turned off the quasi fuel mode and enabled close throttle idle fuel table. I did alot of work to make sure that table matched the main table and had the right fuel curve. It was some work but it fixed my issues along with playing with spark table, and stall saver stuff if i recall that right. It would dip into a map cell where fuel and spark were off and as engine tried to get back to norm, it would enter into a vicious cycle of surging up and down of rpm and fuel was all over.

ZZ42Fast

iTrader: (2)

I'm sure its sort outable? Like you say though its what you want to get out of it. I actually quite enjoy tinkering on mine and then driving. I like the mix. A car I can just get in and enjoy doesn't appeal so much- that is what my daily is for I'm sure the Vette is great though!

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Set...;

Quasi RPM to 0
Quasi MPH to 255
Min Base Pulse to 0

...if that doesn't stop your surging, the injectors you're running are your problem.

Deja-Vu all over again. This is what caused Steve to go Megasquirt.

Seems to only happen with '7165 converts.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Mine is doing the same thing. I blame it on the miniram.

It's not that abnormal though. I've met a number of members on the forum over the years who had a 'kick *** street car' that when I saw it ran like an inconsistent turd. The standards are low here, so you're probably actually doing good lol.

The newer Corvettes are great. They idle like a champ and make tons of usable power. You can buy a base C6 and bolt on a blower and it be the nicest, tamest ride in town.

You could go blow through carb, yank the tags and make it a trailer queen... I've thought about doing that with mine.

-- Joe

ZZ3Astro

The math on doing what you have done is interesting. My GT-R had a net cost of 20k for 30 months and 15k miles. And there were at least 15k smiles in the same time period. The only time I ever turned a wrench was to put on a catless mid-pipe and then to take it off when I traded it. You can't beat that tradeoff.. go to work/run your business/etc and trade some of the cash for the reliable fun. And go 170+ on a whim.


I like having projects too though... one of each is a good starting point. I'm certain that for all the cussing I've done over DIY project cars, as soon as I was without a project I'd be shopping for another to start. The best of both worlds is to have at least one badass newish car and a project car or two. Oh, and a few million dollars in the bank! I'm only at one of those goals LOL

86Z

iTrader: (4)

it's not quasi, the flag never changes, how the hell can it sit there and idle in the driveway fine and all the sudden start swinging? i love the new vette but also feel somewhat guilty about the camaro, i've had it for a long time.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Disable it regardless. And go look at your ve table 3d plots. Look for any odd dips or bumps and reall focus on the slope of the fuel curve around idle kpa's and rpms

Vanilla Ice

Didn't you ask about converting mine to 3bar? Was that you?
It's really like a 20 minute thing...

I think I still have the original diff file so finding the calibration changes would be so simple. I may add it all to the XDF so it's more user friendly/swappable.

ZZ42Fast

iTrader: (2)

I like this- momentum is with you 86z to get that beast running smooth again. Come on we can do it

86Z

iTrader: (4)

it's very hard to focus on the camaro now when i can just get in this and go with a smile on my face

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

What are your idle pulse widths?

I could never get $58 to idle properly with 42lb green top injectors. The pulse widths would get too low and erratic.

That's why I'm using a different fueling strategy on my MS.

The Quasi vs Async is supposed to fix that, but I always had '730 ECM's and not actual '749 hardware. A '749 actually has 2 injector drivers, not one like a '730.

-- Joe

86Z

iTrader: (4)

around 1.58msec... when i played with it the other week i added 100msec to the injector offset vs pulse width and the swing stopped and went to around 12 rich.. i used the closed ve table and brought it up.. i'm not sure what else changed but the car constantly stalled when i slowed down and pushed in the clutch... never did that before.

gta324

Ive spent hours and hours to get my code59 runnng good without surging and hunting rpm after DFCO and so on and it can be done. Cant remember right now what the problem is. But post a log file and the bin we can have a look?

The only issue now it below 2500 it misfires some if AFR is over 14, but that is the HSR intakes fault.........

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

This is kinda where you might beable to justify spending 1400-1600$ on aftermarket efi systems. Lol saves the headache because its somewhat more simplified and has some auto tune functions to get you close and alot of support

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Exactly 100%. I enjoy fabricating and playing in the garage, but spending countless hours fighting with 30 year old software isn't fun, and it isn't saving me any money in the long run.

The auto tune doesn't do much for cold/warm starting though. And if you have any exhaust leaks at all it's over.

-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Wow some of what you guys are saying sounds nuts lol. A bin file, XDF and datalog will isolate the problem immediately. Without them everyone is just guessing at what the problem may or may not be. Most times it isn't the software itself, it can also be a mechanical problem, and even a tuner problem. Had someone reach out to me almost two years ago, very frustrated, his car went for almost a year without running and being able to enjoy it; Procharged SBC w/TPI. He was convinced it was the engine control system (EBL-P4). I asked him to send me a datalog, and within seconds I told him to connect his MAP sensor. He connected it, engine fired right up. Bottom line is something is being overlooked, and although I am not a fan of $59, I doubt it's the code itself causing the problem.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I dont think something is being overlooked, as i know i experienced the exact same behavior. I eventually got it sorted out, it was just how you setup the tune/bin and being careful in the ve table values and timing

I guess anything could happen and maybe its something mechanical/trivial. But i know the code can be tricky

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

It seems to be an issue for those starting with a '7165 wiring harness. I know that when researching Eric Marshall's expanded $58 code for Turbo Tweak customers, it behaves perfectly, then again it goes right into the '7749. Looking at what those other earlier guys did for $59, it wasn't really as much as we originally thought that was different. The V6 guys, even Mark w/his turbo 3100, running $59 with the '7730, don't seem to be having that problem either. Just the '7165 converts for some reason...

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Idk, mine was a 165 convert to 730 and initially had issues but like i said, it was picky about how you setup the file and the slope of the ve table in both the big expanded table and close throttle table. Around the idle cells. I dont see how repinning is a culprit

I reused same bin from my 400 as i did for my 305 which was already 730. Once i got the ve tables scaled back for 36 lb inj, it ran fine. But was a stock motor

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Why would it matter?

If the wiring is correct, it is correct. It's not like speed density uses some special wire mined from neptune.

A log doesn't always isolate the problem. The sample rate on the P4 ecm's isn't even that fast.

People rely too much on the logs, presumed o2 values, etc. Bruce always used to remind people to give the engine what it wants. If it wants to idle at 13:1 and 29 degrees, that's what it wants.

I know the guys have done a lot to $59, but honestly the $58 it's based on sucks. I used $58, and Bruce's $60 for several years in the early 2000s. Spending a hundred hours on a tune is not my idea of a good time.


-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Why are you running such large injectors?

-- Joe

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Its making good power for a 305. Leaves room to grow

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Re-pinning a '165 harness to emulate a '730, then adapting the 730 ECM to run with that harness may very well be the problem. It's not the wiring itself being from Neptune, but it could very well be something in the harness causing the problem in how it is originally wired. This is why a datalog is needed, this is why sensor data is needed, this is why we need to see what is commanding the pulling or adding of fuel. The ECM surging may very well be the byproduct of a condition, not necessarily the ECM causing the surge because of the code, but the result of voltage loss or skewed data due to an area not yet confirmed, could also be a ground issue in the harness because people point to injector banks being a concern meanwhile it is programmed for Batch fire. A few people came up with the idea of re-pinning the harness, but it was never fool proof, just like the '302 to '165, some claim it works, whereas others run into problems. Nothing on this website was ever guaranteed to work, it was more of a play at your own risk and I am not responsible for what happens if you try it kind of deal. I brought up Eric Marshall because he started with the same code; $58. Doesn't matter what cam or injectors his customers run, his expanded code works, but then again his customers are running V6's with the original '749. I said earlier that if his quasi is turned off and the problem is still there, it is his injectors. Even Steve swapped back to the original injectors after experiencing that bad surge and the problem was resolved, no other changes.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

It's not. It's just wires. There is no inline resistors or anything like that.

It's just wires. You can pull one apart and check it yourself, ohm out every wire. The problem isn't repinning.

If people have a problem, it's because they screwed up the repin. That isn't the fault of the harness, but rather the lack of labeling while repining.


-- Joe

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yes taking a v6 code and running on a v8 is the tricky part. Alot of its different and thus you gotta take alot of time getting the tables worked out. Use the wideband. Lol force a higher idle to stabilize it first then work your way down.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

This is why we need to see the log and sensor values, if it idles fine for awhile then suddenly out of nowhere it starts to surge as bad as you're saying, then my immediate first thought is Open Loop to Closed Loop, which would point to somewhere in the sensors themselves; skewed data. But that is just a thought because you didn't say how long she was idling for before it started surging, and if it was a cold or warm start.

This is yet another clue but not the whole story because there is no log. If it never did that before then it is not the code, something might have happened mechanically; could be a head gasket, especially when you stated the engine is overheating for no apparent reason, could also be a vacuum leak, it could be anything at this point because all we can do is speculate without the datalog...

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

All $59 users experience these problems when running off of the '165 harness. For existing '730 users there is no problem whatsoever, you just download the closest $59 bin and start tuning the VE and SA. Only '165 users go through this, so I must disagree with you there...

But you're inadvertently saying what I already did;

If the majority of '165 converts experience these problems, then it is either the wiring, or the person doing the re-pinning. If the majority of the '165 converts have problems with a "particular" injector, then it is the wiring. There is no denying that.

Again, '749 and '730 users have no problems running the $59 code.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Are you suggesting their is a problem with the harness, or the idiot doing the repinning?

I'm suggesting the later.

If you can't label wires and move them from one connector to another, you shouldn't be building hot rods.

But either way, it's not the fault of the harness.


-- Joe

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Both of those things happened to me and it was not mechanical...it was not wiring

A wideband log does help tho.

Its like a slight upset in rpm triggers a correction that just compiles over and over and the system loses control...gets worse and worse. Most dont run closed loop with that code

86Z

iTrader: (4)

guys, it was a cold start in the driveway it was at idle for around 15-20 minutes while i was making sure the computer was controlling the fans. it just appears to start afr swinging..

i run open loop only...the car was originally carbed i installed the tpi and 7730 harness. it ran fine with FMU $8D and 30 lb injectors.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

It's the $58/$59 mask. It's just a mother to tune.

I still think your injectors are a big large though, and I did specifically have problems with the 42# green tops and that hardware/mask.

-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

... you're a putz lol. Yes, that is what I am saying, just didn't want to say it that way lol.

I will just say this, I have wired a few '165 converts to the EBL Flash, which is basically a swap over to Speed Density from MAF. I see the pins that need to be changed, and the alterations needed to run the MAP sensor. It's not difficult at all to do. However, I have never followed the $59 method of converting the '165 to the '730/'749 ECM using the traditional way, and by traditional I mean the thirdgen user way to see the differences, although I'm sure it is very close. The EBL Flash does not have these issues when converting the '165 to Speed Density, and it too uses the stock MAF harness, albeit similarly modified. But then again, the EBL Flash unit is entirely different from an ordinary '7730 ECM. Same MAF harness, different ECM's (EBL Flash vs '7730). This is what leads me to believe it is a wiring issue. Every '165 convert can look at the XDF and swear up and down the data is correct, then they scratch their heads as to why it is surging when using certain injectors.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Converting to use $59 is same as $8D, except tcc lockup

86Z

iTrader: (4)

what size injectors would you recommend? i was using 30#'s before with the procharger FMU one got stuck opened, i then replaced them with the 42lb green tops and code59, again i rarely drive this thing so its hard to pinpoint if after the injector change if it started

my log got corrupted.

all the recommended quasi settings i had correct except for KPALL min base pulse, i lowered that to 0. and will try to get a datalog tonight for review.

i think i ruled out all the mechanical stuff, i did compression test, etc... i run open loop so no correction

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

42's should do it. I ran 36's on my 305 tpi car with 7-8 psi boost that was enough power to trap 110 in ok air. My guess 280 whp lol had alot of duty cycle left but that was a stock weak 305 tpi motor

86Z

iTrader: (4)

yeah i was thinking that.. i ran the car the other day and it was not very hot out. i think i may have some heat soak going on. when the idle afrs would sure my fuel pressure showed ok but i noticed when i turn the car off then on to prime the pump it would sound funny. i put a vented gas cap on this car before due to the pressure build up in the tank... i ordered a vent valve that was mentioned on this site yesterday to try.

86Z

iTrader: (4)

well you guys were right, i can't give up on the 3rd gen. i sold the procharger kit and i reverted back to 1 bar and $8D on the computer last night and experienced the same thing with the afr swing, not sure if it's a bad injector or not but i realized i'm tried of the outdated programming... so i'm pulling the dinosaur at some point, most likely going to get a 5.3 and yes.... i will be posting in the power adder forum turbo perhaps?

Shinobi'sZ

I have had 3 Vettes....my latest is a 2017 Z06 which I have put a whole 900 miles on in 3 months. My previous C5 Z put down 850 rwhp.

I have owned quite a few F Bodies and they will never be a Corvette no matter how fast they are made to run. I have owned two Mustangs also.

What is cool about the thirdgen is the fact of the way they look today in 2017. Especially when they are well maintained and don't look like some piece of crap and are barely running. A clean well running thirdgen will turn some heads.

I have been working on my daughter's 1990 Firebird lately and it is running great and I have noticed when I drive it....it get's a lot of looks. I'm playing with adding a poweradder just to wake it up a bit so when I go to pass cars it has a little more get up, my daughter is excited about it too as she has watched me build cars in the garage and went to many hot rod shows..so she was like yeah put a turbo or supercharger on my car. But I don't have any expectation for it put down as much power as my CTS-V or C7Z or any LS powered vehicle. As much as I like the idea of doing an LSx swap I like the original factor of using the motor it came with and adding to it.

Robbie_S

Thats what I think we all wanted to hear.

86Z

iTrader: (4)

My C6 GS puts a smile on my face every time i drive it. now that i have that i don't mind spending some time on the camaro, cost wise to make power it's cheaper to go LS

Z28FAST1

Turbo that 5.3 and it'll make the GS feel docile

Nice stable

GenX'Motorsport

+1

Ever consider aftermarket ecm? Would solve all these "old tech"problems.

TylerSteez

iTrader: (3)

if you do decide on parting out the car or have parts you're willing to sell, I'm local

86Z

iTrader: (4)

it's just not worth the investment for me, without the supercharger i have a 305 tpi with mods... if i go with a 383 i'm looking at around 4k for a forged motor then a turbo...

i'm on the hunt for an F-body LS1

GenX'Motorsport

^ You can get a LS 5.3 or 6.0. Throw a cam in. Use your'e Procharger. And make great power on a small budget.

86Z

iTrader: (4)

guy's just to update this. those who have tried to help with my issue. i'm baffled by what i've found.

so the original supercharged 305 i had the issue of the afr swing from 13's to 18's

i've got my lq9 running fuel pressure set to 60psi on the 1st start.. few days later i cannot get over 40psi and it bleeds down quickly. i replaced the intank fuel pump with another walbro 255, first prim 95psi !....

with the procharger i had the intank walbro 255 and an external in line 255 the fuel pressure gauge never showed a drop in pressure during the AFR swing.

i sold the inline 255 with the procharger

here's where i need insight... why didn't the pressure gauge show a drop if the intank pump was weak?

any hoot that lq9 sounds mean