How about starting an alternative fuels board? I bet you could make a killer engine that would run off of e-85 and full ethanol for racing. Remember E-85 is 100-105 octane and 100% ethanol is 113 octane.


It seems that as gas prices increase ,this issue will become more and more important. If we could develop a complete conversion kit here, (probably only for TPI/V6 guys unless someone makes compatible tbi injectors) that would be awesome.

Also, I have searched and these posts seem to pop up here and there. It would be nice to organize them.

 

i think e85 falls under the "Power Adder" board

 

Depends on the delivery system.

-- Joe

 

I think we should have the alternative fuels board. I get tired of having to fund people who call us the "great satan" and fly airplanes into our buildings everytime I fill up. I will take my fuel from the Midwest over the Mideast anytime, even if it costs a little more. There is a gas station by the Pentagon that sells E-85 and propane. I would love to run my Camaro on either (or both). Anyone sell kits that can be used to convert a Camaro?

1. E85 or Propane conversion kit - $500?
2. One tank of E85/Propane - $40
3. Telling OPEC what they can do with themselves everytime I fill up - priceless

 

.....

 

This may become a hot topic soon as WalMart has now stated that they will begin a project to eventually offer E85 at a majority of their stations. From what I have read, one of the reasons E85 is hard/impossible to find in some areas is that the oil companies do not support it at this point. That is really no surprise, but I have also read that since oil companies are now the ones who are responsible for selling E85 at their stations, they are artifically keeping prices high to slow the switch. Maybe, maybe not. Point is, WalMart could change all of that and I would be more than happy to make the switch, even if it means spending a few bucks more per tank. This brings me to the reason I found this thread. I have a 305 LB9 that I am going to slowly build a 350 for and I would like to read as much as possible about making that an E85 powered engine, so I agree with the first poster. Until then, I will just do the searches.

 

I'm running E85 in an unmodified except-for-carb-calibration engine. It certainly isn't a "power adder".

The main problem with ethanol right now is supply. The Feds mandated it in all gasoline, and the infrastructure is not there to support the new demand. The oil companies know they need to be energy companies, so they are working on building capacity for ethanol. E85 is the best bet all around, as it eliminates the moonshining problem, and eliminates most of the problems with pure ethanol (water absorbtion being one remaining problem).

A forum for it and other alternative fuels? Well, can't say I can justify it. E85, at least, has been discussed at length on the Carb, Tech, and Organized Racing forums.

 

That's no way to talk about Alaskans and Texans.

 

Not to jack my own thread, but how many Alaskans and Texans see that money? I'd rather give my money to an out-of work farmer than a company that literally makes over $12000 per second (Mobil). I have a feeling that when you make $12000 per second you could afford to pay all the alaskans and texans working in the oil field for a year in about 1 day of profits (remember it's about ~46 million dollars per hour, and thats PROFIT so I don't want to hear about how much they have to invest in new this and that, it's all ready factored in!

P.S. When your profit is 46 million and hour, you also have lots of money to bribe the government to make sure that things like e-85 don't happen too quickly.

 

Don't you Canadians have a lot of cars that run natural gas? Where can I get parts? They also have natural gas at the Pentagon station too

 

No, almost none, unless you're talking about fleet cars like taxis and municipal service trucks in urban areas. You'd never be able to get anywhere, the distances between cities are too great here, and the population is too low for alternative fuels to be economically viable in smaller towns. About all we have is some propane, which isn't nearly as popular as it was in the 80s.

Canada probably won't be a leader in alternative fuels. Our population base and density is too low, and we have the second largest petroleum reserves in the world. Look to the US for that, they have a lot more incentive with their outrageous energy consumption rate.

 

Sorry to burst the bubble,

E85 costs more and you get less power per molecule than regular gasoline. Plus, you have to spend money to convert your fuel system because Ethanol picks of moisture many many times easier than gasoline.

 

Think about how much gas will cost in 20 years. Think about how much ethanol will cost in 20 years? Answer: MUCH LESS THAN GAS? Why? because researchers will figure out how to turn cellulose (basically wood) into alcohol on the cheap. Gas? I don't see it getting any cheaper. Thank supply and demand (and we're talking global demand).

Okay now, you build an EMISSIONS LEGAL engine that runs off 91 octane gas. I'll build one that runs exclusively off of E-85.

Then we'll put them on the dyno and tune them. I bet you I make more POWER per liter of displacement.

There are other factors besides the energy content per molecule. Think about it for a minute before you reply. I bet an engine designed for e-85 will make more power than an engine designed for pump gas with lots more timing and high compression and boost. Bye bye 91-octane. If alcohol fuels are so terrible then why are all serious racing cars run on some form of alcohol???

As for the efficiency argument? Forget it. Look at Brazil.
If E-85 took over we'd have 3-cylinder 1.0 liter engines pumping out 200HP because they are turbocharged and have 15:1 compression ratios.
Lower the compression ratio in your car by about 3 or 4 and see how good your fuel economy gets. The reason the fuel may be expensive is because it's in it's infancy. The reason people get poor mileage is because the engines are optimized to run on GAS not alcohol.

Any way you look at it Ethanol is a good thing. More jobs in the US, More GDP, less pollution, more horsepower. High cost? Maybe where you live... and it's only a temporarily high cost (which will come down with more supply and better production techniques).

The difference between e-85 (eventually e-100) and oil is that oil is limited and sun light isn't- and if sun light ever becomes limited we're toast anyway!

Check this out for prices... Looks generally cheaper to me.
Clean Air Choice™ - E85 Price Forum

As for fuel system modification... You've got me there. But when gas is $4.00 a gallon and e-85 is $2.65 a gallon, people will be thinking twice.

What do you need? A a new fuel pump, rubber lines and regulator membrane and maybe injectors. Alcohol-compatible stuff will come down in price as it becomes more popular.
Check this out too:
1000rwhp with $2 fuel? E85 is pretty cool stuff.

 

Right now or even in the near future, your response makes little economic sense. In the future IF E85 is the norm, then I am sure cars will make more power. They have been every year with the advance in technology.

If you want to spend the time, money and headache trying to make your 305 TPI make 3HP more than a gasoline one, go right ahead and pave the way. Yes, race cars use this fuel because the engines are run at their peak of 10,000RPMs + for many hours at a time. The average street V8 loafs at 1,800 RPM on the highway.

Your SBC is not making 15.1 compression and therefore does not need 105+ octane like the little 1.0L you mentioned. Besides, do you realize how much octane is needed to run a turbocharger at 15.1 compression to keep the motor from melting down?

I am not saying Ethanol is bad, it is just not worth your time and money to try and make any power out of it. The fuel is not "magic gas" that will give you 50hp with a chip change.

Will we see more E85 in the future? Yes. Right now there is a shortage because there are some big issues to be sorted out with it first. Transporting it is difficult because it picks up water very easily, storing it at the stations, stations that will convert to sell it, etc.

 

I think you may have missed my point.
If you could run e-85 only you could make your 305 15:1 compression.

You say 305 like it's small. It may be small for 91 octane, but not 105.

Or keep it ~9:1 and run 24 pounds of intercooled boost on top of that.
305 ci doesn't sound so wimpy any more. Imagine 24 lbs of boost for 2.60/gal ??? Besides I think you are comparing gas octane to alcohol. Alcohol burns cooler and EGTs are all around cooler. Check out the article I cited above.

The desiccant properties of 100 percent alcohol are nasty, but not e-85. Actually up to 190 proof alcohols are pretty safe for transport without an antidesiccant. Think about 200 proof lab alcohol... it always has an additive to prevent it from sucking water out of the air, but not 190 proof...

To summarize, if you're rebuilding anyway, then go for the high compression or high boost (which is would be the purpose of having an alternative fuels board).

People slam alcohol like it's an inferior fuel. It's not.

 

If you can get a streetable Small Block Chevy to run 15:1 compression, you are a genius.

This statement tells me you have little idea what you are talking about.

This discussion is not about whether 305's are wimpy, it is about why changing to E-85 on an older engine is a waste of time.

Are you talking about Wild Turkey or Everclear or vehicle fuels?

Alcohol is not a bad fuel per se, just not good for a street car. Alcohol is fine for race cars because it is usually used up the day it is poured in the tank. On a street vehicle, it takes a weeks on average.

 

In the post above you implied that a running a 305 on alcohol was a waste of time. If it produced more power it wouldn't be a waste of time it would be beneficial and worthwhile.

If a 7-liter LS7 can run with 12:1 compression on 91 octane it could surely be made to run with 15:1 compression at 105+ octane. No one said you needed to keep the L03 in your car.

This is a response that one uses when he or she can't think of a counter arguement to an analogy that is used as a premise in an argument. It's a favorite of lawyers and republicans but is basically equivalent to saying: Nuh-unh! I will entertain your response though: One could easily run a car off of everclear. Wild turkey would be tougher.

This is only a problem if phase separation occurs.

 

Believe it or not, when you add the cost of the energy to distill the ethanol, it costs more to make a gallon of ethanol than gasoline. And, as the price of energy goes up, the cost of ethanol goes higher.

Ethanol is like communism - it sounds great on paper but in practice it just doesn't work.

And before you say "But Brazil has been doing this for years"...Brazil pays a LOT MORE for gasoline than we do and Sugar Cane is a more effective raw material to make ethanol out of than corn or grain.

Lastly, regardless of the price to produce ethanol (or any other alternative fuel), as the price of oil goes up, the price of the alternatives also go up. A lot of people got sucked in to convert to propane only to find out that price of propane rose as gasoline prices rose and eliminated any savings they thought they would get from propane.

 

I said "SBC" which stands for SMALL BLOCK CHEVY. I did not single out the 305ci engine.

You are comparing an engine designed 40 years ago with 20 year old technology on top of it to engine that came out this year? Are you aware of the cylinder pressures and the extreme amount of heat that would require alot more than 105 octane for a street motor.






Which is why we do not have 15:1 street engines and use alcohol for a normal fuel. Fossil fuel is still cheaper.

 

Wow! This is beginning to look like a debate on religion or abortion. Oh well, time will tell. I hope to revisit this thread at a later date only to find that those who debate against e85 were wrong, if only for the enviroment's sake. I certainly don't know enough about alternative fuels to argue either way, but one thing is for sure, the e85 opinions here are a bit too conflicted to be of much use. I believe you gentlemen are right, TGO is not the place for an alternative fuels board as that might become a pretty nasty place politically.

 

I must confess, I wish this E85 thing was going in a positive direction. I would love to give the middle east the finger.

I have been doing a little research on conversions, basically it looks like higher compression and then you need to replace EVERY SINGLE rubber part in your fuel system with that Buna-N style rubber to keep the alcohol from deteriorating.

There's plenty of biodiesel and E85 at our farm co-op in Vincennes and the prices aren't outrageous - yet.

There are some GM yellow cars running around and apparently they can still run normal fuel when they want to.

Sounds good to me. I'm ready to try! I guess I'll put that on my list of things to do with "Project X" and see how it goes!!

 

If you guys want to try to run E85, be my guest. There are not enough stations that carry it yet and you will need to run 105+ octane race gas because your ECM is not sophisticated enough to take in consideration the fuel changes if you need to use petroleum gas if you up the compression ratio over 12.5:1.

Your hearts are in the right place, but you guys need to do your research first.

 

Actually, there has been some people who have been trying to convert to propane and make the necessary changes in the eprom on the DIY Prom Board a while back.

As a moderator on the DIY Prom Board, feel free to make any posts you want regarding possible changes that may be required for run E85. Using a Moates adapter and some switching, it would be possible to have a "dual" eprom so you could "just flick a switch" so you could run the eprom for the appropriate fuel when necessary.

For ethanol, I would suspect the tuning would not really be all that much different. Initially, you may want to make the Knock Sensor a bit more sensitive to avoid toasting your motor while you were working on the tuning. But, beyond that, it really shouldn't any more difficult than tuning for any other type of modification.

The one big concern as I recall for E85 on a EFI car are the injectors. The stock injectors cannot handle more than 10% ethanol as I recall. But with the proper injectors designed to handle a higher percentage for ethanol as well as the necessary modifications to the fuel lines (alcohol is more corrosive than gasoline), I really don't see E85 conversion as a "big deal".

Dual fuel propane or CNG would be more complex than E85IMO. But, if I were to build an engine, I would look at the alternative of making a powerful motor that could run on 87 octane rather than 91/92 or 94. Yes, you may leave a few ponies on the table by making the engine run 87 instead of 91.

But, if you add a slightly bigger cam, use good quality aluminum heads with a tight quench, or make the engine slightly bigger in displacement; you can easily make up for the few ponies you lost by designing it to run 87 instead of 91. This is what I am considering when it comes time to rebuild/replace my engine.

 

I surely do not think it can't be done, just a waste of time for what you get.

 

Like it or not E-85 WILL be the next in a long evolving line of fuels.

Like any new thing, the begininng is always slow. What helps it become slow is people that want to trash it instead of giving it a chance.

We have a ethanol plant opening up near me within a year that will start with a 1M barrel a year compasity. He (the owner) has already stated that he would like to increase that to 7M barrel in 4 years. Effectively taking in the corn production of 5 surrounding counties.

This is just one in which I am sure thousands of plants are scheduled to be built. It is alot easier, faster and definately cheaper to build an ethanol plant than a refinery...

So I imagine within 2 years you will see a dramatic drop in the cost of E-85. And with that drop you will see more people using it.

The faster we can get off middle east oil the better. Then we can really start doing what needs to be done as they will no longer be able to hold the oil over our heads.

 

Which, the E85 or building a powerful engine designed to burn 87 octane?

 

Actually, that will probably have no effect. It takes energy to plow the corn fields and it takes energy to distill the mash into ethanol. Lastly, thanks to our wonderful market based economies...whenever an alternative energy source is developed, it mirrors the price of other energy sources.

Propane is made from a variety of renewable resources and requires very little energy sources to produce the finished product. But, whenever the price of oil rises, the price of propane ALSO goes up...because rising oil prices causes a "switch" to propane, increase demand and thus increase the price.

It's all basic Economics 101 - as demand increase, supply decreases and prices go up. The ONLY way to reduce the price for energy is to reduce demand. And that means we all need to start conserving and stop driving "gas guzzlers".

This is all a replay of what happened in the late 60s and early 70s - when we first sold my big block cars and started driving smaller cars. In the mid-70s NO ONE wanted a big block car...everyone started to drive Japanese 4 bangers...and that is what finally caused oil to fall in price.

Sorry for the Economics & History lesson.

 

E85

 

I doubt thousands of plants in the next two years. There are only 40 refineries in the entire country right now. Last one being built in the late 70's.

As long as Big oil has their say, Ethanol has a long road as a main fuel.

I am surely not saying E85 will be big one day, it will. Just not a good fuel for thirdgens. It will be years before E85 will be big due to the fuel system component issues on older cars.

 

There is ONE big advantage to E85 and that is for people who live at a place where they MUST pass emission testing. I use to live in an area where we need to pass a dyno emission test. Whenever a person "just failed", we would ALWAYS add ethanol and it would usually make them pass due to less emissions.

So E85 could be an advantage for someone in California who needs to pass emissions and would like a car with a bit more beans under the hood (which won't pass with ordinary gas).

 

As a Farmer, Gearhead, and an E-85 user I felt the need to weigh in here. I use E-85 all the time in my '96 Bonneville. I mix it 3/4 E-85 to 1/4 E-10, giving me about 66% ethanol. You can run straight E-85 but the check engine light will come on with much more than 3/4 tank. I drive my Bonny to school which is just over 100 miles one way, I do notice a slight drop in mpg but after saving $0.40 a gallon at the pump I can afford to still get about 27 mpg!

Ironicly, I found an abused '85 Z28 that I have since restored along the road while I was hauling a load of corn to the ethanol plant 3 years ago. I run E-85 in that too.

Happy Wrenching Guys

 

I was not going to respond to this but I think I will. I feel people need to change the way they look at E85.

There are 2 E85 plants being constructed right now within 30 miles of my home. One is 4 miles way in Nelson IL, and the other is 30 miles away in Rochelle IL.

I believe that most of us that are looking into the E85 conversion are not worried about the problems of;

1) cost
2) fuel economy
3) initial start up headaches
4) small power losses
5) availability of E85

These problems can be overcome. I also believe we are not looking into the E85 conversion to;

1) gain more horse power
2) purposely run a higher compression ratio
3) get better or worse mileage
4) save money
5) say we are running 105 octane

For the most part
I believe we are looking into the E85 conversion in order to flip the American Eagle to the foreign countries who sell their oil to us and at the same time hate us. They don’t hate President Bush, they don’t hate republicans, they don’t hate democrats, they don’t hate Christians… they HATE ALL of the U.S.

Burning E85 will not hurt the Texans or Alaskans, their oil production will still be used by Americans. If burning E85 in my vehicles is one way that I can be a small part of reducing our debt to the nations that hate us, then I am going to look into it.

I am proud to be an American, I have freedom, I have choice.

 

You should read this:

Bloomberg.com: Bloomberg Columnists

 

Bloomberg is a VERY credible source too.

All of you that want to switch to E85 because of patriotism are falling for a pretty hardline sham.

 

I read it. Opinion noted.

 

I have to agree with my3rdgen.

With all the arguments about the viability of E-85, its easy to forget there are other viable alternatives too.

Natural gas - If Washington Metro can convert its entire bus fleet in about a year, when it can't even get escalators to work, it can't be that hard.

Electric - For those of you who think of electric cars as glorified golf carts that have no range, check out the following links:

A High-Performance Electric Roadster, A Revolutionary Processor, A Heavyweight Light Sport Aircraft and More: Tech Watch - Popular Mechanics
Electric Cars 1/4 mile 0-60 - DragTimes.com

 

Alcohol will never be the replacement for gasoline. It still gives off carbon pollution,(burn some alcohol in a dish and look for soot!),and it requires about three gallons of diesel to make one gallon of etanol. Plowing, planting and harvesting the corn.
The only alternative for us motorheads is a fuel that will satisfy the EPA, produce adequete horsepower, and provide ease of refueling. Hydrogen gas is what I am converting to right now, and it is made from water. Get on board guys! The Swan.

 

FWIW:

First IRL 100% ethanol test a success
29th September 2006
The US Indy Racing League successfully carried out its first test with cars equipped with engines using 100 per cent ethanol fuel at the Daytona International Speedway in Florida earlier this week.
Two cars powered by the 3.5-litre Honda Indy V-8 engine that will be raced in 2007 ran at speeds of up to 190 miles per hour on a circuit comprising sections of Daytona’s high banked oval track and the infield road course. The cars were driven by the four most recent IndyCar Series champions, Sam Hornish Jr., Dan Wheldon, Scott Dixon and Tony Kanaan.
In 2006 competitors in the IRL series raced on a fuel which was a blend of 90 per cent oil derived methanol and 10 per cent ethanol.

In 2007 the IRL will be contested by cars using renewable 100 per cent ethanol fuel.


And: ESPN.com - IRL - Ethanol Alley: IndyCars to be corn-fueled soon

 

Unfortunately, hydrogen is not a source of energy either - it is a "conveyor" of energy. There are no natural sources of hydrogen. The only way you can produce hydrogen is by electrolysis to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen. That requires large sums of electricity.

This is why hydrogen fuel cell powered autos have been slow in development, there isn't enough electrical power generation in North America to produce the electricity for the hydrogen.

This means LOTS of nuclear reactors (if you wish to avoid green house gases). But do you really want one built in "your backyard"?

 

Why not?

-- Joe

 

I'm a mechanical engineer, and I read Pimental's rebuttal against ethanol, which is itself highly flawed. He attempts to do an energy balance to compare the energy required to produce an amount of ethanol with the equivalent amount of energy in one gallon of gasoline. So far so good. His analysis, which includes the energy consumed with FEEDING THE WORKERS WHO PRODUCE THE CORN does show that more energy is consumed in producing an amount of ethanol with equivalent energy of a gallon of gasoline than is contained within that gallon of gasoline.

The extremely flawed portion of Pimental's study is that he does not do the same energy balance for the production of one gallon of gasoline. If he did so, he would find that the energy used to produce one gallon of gasoline IS ALSO GREATER than the energy contained within the gasoline. Congrats to him, he verified the second law of thermodynamics.

Pimental's study does bring up some good points on energy balance that many people don't think about, but his methodoligy for decrediting ethanol as a net energy loss IN COMPARISON TO GASOLINE is extremely flawed in itself.

 

Contact the Atomic Energy Commission with your address.

 

I would be interested in reading Pimental's study if you can produce a link. But, as you were alluding to; it does make one realize that there are a number of energy inputs that must be considered before blindly converting every acre of land to grow corn for ethanol. Ethanol is not a "no cost" source of energy.

I have also read other studies which included Brazil (who have been using ethanol for years) The key difference outlined with Brazil's ethanol program is; they use sugar cane, which grows like a weed naturally there and yields far greater ethanol due to it's higher sugar content.

Some economists may also argue that payments to American Farmers, even if higher, is still better for the U.S. as the money is retained within the American economy. Payments for foreign oil is permanently withdrawn to foreign countries, and many tend not to buy American produced goods, thus there a permanent reduction of overall wealth.

Frankly, the real solution to the world's energy needs is the development of fusion energy (not fission). No pollution, no nasty waste, unlimited fuel (water), and once harnessed should produce the cheapest power of all. In fact, it's one byproduct (helium) is a rare element that has it's own demand.

Then the cheap electricity could create the hydrogen needed for the hydrogen powered cars mentioned above.

 

stuckatcuse
Update us if you decide to go through with the conversion. There are always people that are going to say no it cant be done, or shouldnt be done, for whatever reasons. For instance, when R-12 was replaced with R-134a many people cried calamity if you reused the same hoses and compressor, then the retrofit kits came out.

What i have gathered in my short briefing on Ethanol is that you need to change out several things just so the ethanol will not eat away your seals.
-rubber hoses (with stainless steel)
-seals (with urethane or plastic ones)
-fuel pump (with one that wont pass a current)

Also you need to jet or program the ECM to shoot out 27-30% more fuel volume, either by jetting or changing the injector pulse width. I think Grim Reaper is right about the fuel injectors, those probably would need to be changed out for those that will be able to handle alcohol. A carb would need to have plastic parts inside to replace the rubber ones.

The hard part i think will be the protection of the engine components. Most post 1988 fuel injected cars seem to have some coatings that protect the engine from caustic engine acids, so they are more resistant to damage. I think that nitride coating engine parts, like pistons and cylinder walls (or sleeving cylinder walls) maybe the way to go. When water mixes with the alcohol it will create formic acid and that wouldnt be a good thing.

With the optimized PROM question, you can get a moates adapter for several chips, and he even sells a remote that you can change the chip on the fly. One chip can be optimized for gasoline, one for ethanol and one for a blend in between.

I think having a flex vehicle will give you a choice if the E85 fad does pan out and they are able to mass produce the stuff cheaply. We have it at gas stations here in town, and the patriotism thing doesnt need to get caught up in this conversation. If you dont like E85 ethanol fine, but let the guy who wants to try it give it a shot. (not including positive critisism). A story ran about a year back, these couple of guys got a VW van to run on fast food cooking byproducts, from the deep fat frier, using a diesel engine.

 

you need more fuel for an engine set up to run on E85, it will cost more because u will burn more gas. the only "good" thing about it is it makes us less dependant on foreign oil. E85 is gay

 

I think some people get caught up in the idea that E85 will somehow be way cheaper than gasoline is now, which as some have already pointed, isn't true.

The real interest in E85 is in getting away from foreign dependency for our fuel needs and putting more money into the U.S. economy.

As far as vegetable oil and diesel engines, there is info. all over the Web on it. There are companies selling kits to process it in your garage. It's supposed to provide just as much power as regular diesel fuel, burn cleaner and also extend the life of the engine.

The only downside is collecting the used vegetable oil. It's kind of a hassle.

 

I live in the Midwest, and right now there happens to be a gas station supplying E85 not far from me. right now (not 20 years in the future) E85 is already a full quarter cheaper per-gallon than regular unleaded.

and even with farmers growing corn and people messing with cellulose and even agricultural waste, there are also ways to produce ethanol from waste beer, yet another big American industry that can benefit. supposedly Coors or some company is making efforts to produce about 3 million gal. of unblended ethanol per year out of waste beer. as people discover more and more ways to make ethanol-based fuels, prices will only lower and I'm sure the gov. will impose tax benefits to companies making it, only increasing the incentive to produce more. I have no doubt that ethanol based fuels will eventually take over and become relatively dirt-cheap, I just have one question-

would it be legal to covert my car to run exclusively on E85? at first I didn't think there would be a problem, then I went to http://www.e85fuel.com/e85101/faqs/conversion.php , and things got fuzzy. either now or in a couple months (not sure) I won't be required to do any more emissions testing ( ), but are there any other things I might need to worry about, legally? I'm toying with the notion of converting my 89 TA to use it exclusively (and installing a blower ).

P.S.- numerous mag articles have claimed equal or better mileage with tuning, using E85. ditto with power

 

i drove by a gas station in cleveland yesterday 2.25 a gallon for E85 and 2.90 for 87 that right there got me thinking about how to do a swap
basicly injectors/fuel pump/fuel hoses a prom to convert
dose anyone have part numbers? for hoses or fuel pump or injectors


price seems to very from 25 cents to 50 cents less per gallon

from what ive seen its far cheaper to get
higher octane
cleaner emmisons
and with a prom made to run it i would think power output and mileage would be very similar to what we already have now


now im just guessing here but wouldnt a bump in timing make up for the the octane

like what is 6* for 87 maybe 10* or more for E85 you may not see a power increase but it should run i would assume

me and my father talked about doing the conversion he has an 89 iroc and my rs but both run tpi
anyone have part numbers or a dollar amount guess on how to do the conversion
i mean im not looking for my car to gain hp or better mileage
i hear reporters on the news saying average cost to convert a car is around 150 dollars mainly hoses and ecm update

 

Nah, keep reading. It's 70% the thermal efficiency of gas. You need to burn more of it. If you look at window stickers, a car that gets 32mpg on gas, gets about 26mpg when burning e85 (flex fuel vehicle).

It CAN make more power though. E85 becomes cost effective when it hits about $160 a gallon.

-- Joe

 

I think you mean 70% of the heating value of gasoline. The thermal efficiency is a function of the engine characteristics,,, not the fuel. Bottom line is, it takes more ethanol to make the same amount of heat as gasoline. This is not all a bad thing though.

The reason gasoline isn't as efficient as diesel is because the compression ratio you can run is limited by the auto ignition temperature of gasoline. Thermal efficiency is directly related to the compression ratio your engine runs at. So, yes, ethanol takes more fuel to make the same amount of heat, but since ethanol also has a much higher octane number (higher auto ignition temperature), you can raise the compression ratio much higher than if you were running gasoline. This can raise the thermal efficiency of burning ethanol to higher than that of burning gasoline.

Fuel efficiency of OF AN ENGINE is governed by two things,,, how much energy is in the fuel (heating value), and how effectively you turn that energy into mechanical power (thermal efficiency).

If you build a dedicated engine (not flex-fuel) to run on ethanol with a higher compression ratio that takes advantage of the 105 octane of E85, then you can get similar fuel efficiency with ethanol even though the heating value is lower, because the thermal efficiency of the engine is higher.