Looking to replace my Hotchkis (sp) ones from back in the day. Been cut up and rewelded too many times.

I would also like to add a 4 point roll bar to tighten things up. I want to weld the hoop right to the SFC.

http://www.hawksthirdgenparts.com/su...ebird-weld-in/

(NEVER plan to race at a track)

Just want the benefits of a tighter body structure.

 

Anything DSE is going to be top notch. But if you're NEVER going to race at a track, why not save a bill and get some UMI (I used these) or BMR? You could send me the extra $100 if you'd like!!!

Some have used the UMI,Hotchkis, BMR, etc style SFC's with the Alston style. 2 sets of SFC's!!

http://www.top-downsolutions.com/cha...rd-(aka-f-body)

 

All good points. I want to add a simple 4 point to add some rigidity. I figured the dse sfc looked like that would be easiest to weld a roll bar to.

Thoughts?

 

The sub frames you have now are they welded in or bolt on?

 

Weld in.

I don't like them. They are hotchkis ones that are not installed very well.

I would like to move to Alston inners and a 4 point. I feel like adding outers as well would just add extra weight for not much added benefit.

Thoughts?

 

I went with the ALSTON SFC and was really impressed how easily they went on (welded) and how well they fit. HD construction and felt excellent on the road within the first few minutes of driving. Also no loss of ground clearance!

 

Really? I have that the Alston SFC do compromise s ground clearance. I will be running air ride and want my car slammed when I go to shows and park it, so every tiny bit it's a concern for me. This is why I was going to go with Spohn outers and a 4 point roll bar.

Thoughts?

 

The alstons do run under parts of the floor so some clearance is lost, about the thickness of the tube, 1.75" in places but there are parts of the car that are the same height, k member and trans subframe for instance hang pretty low and are close to the same height

 

I have the factory dual cats and they there is about 3 1/2" of ground clearance. When the ALSTON bars are installed, there is also 3 1/2" of ground clearance. They do the job with a minimum amount of work.

 

Got it. I think I am just in a different situation. I have nothing stock about the car and going for an extreme look when parked, while still having drivability

 

UMI Performance as suggested.

I don't have a set yet but like the design best of all.
Just scroll down the page to see them installed.
Link = http://umiperformance.com/catalog/in...roducts_id=127

 

I really don't like the design of umi. I like spohn tubular style better

 

The Detroit Speed option requires cutting the floorboard. They have some pictures of it on their website from their original project car. The quality will be there but the installation is more involved than the other options mentioned.

 

I have the UMI sfc's as well. They were well made and welded in very easily. ...obviously they do the job. I'd say that when looking at the bottom of the door/ground effect, they do...ever...so slightly....hang down. Maybe .25" if that. Doesn't bother me a bit but I guess if you were gonna slam it...might be an issue.

 

You can see 'em running right along the bottom

 

Thanks for posting the pic. I ordered the Spohn tube SFCs and a 4 point roll bar from Jegs.com.

Maybe I will have thread of me installing both on my car.

 

Thanks for the picture. These are the ones I want to run, so it's nice to know they really are not visible, or decreasing ground clearance.

Fantastic looking car, by the way.

 

Yeah....it's literally about a quarter inch if not less. ...and thanks for the compliments

 

You keep saying never raced and 4 pt roll bar.

- On the street the main hoop just becomes a hard unyielding object near the occupants heads to kill or maim in an accident
- 4 points isn't going to tie into anything useful to add any stiffness, it's almost impossible to tie into real structure with the rear down bars on these cars without cutting them apart, and the distance between the bars isn't that great to add dimension/rigidity
- If you do ever go to the track (TnT night, car club meetup at the track), there is a requirement that any bar/cage is built to the rules and a 4pt doesn't meet any rules, which would make you automatically not pass tech as soon as they see it (as always depending on how strict they are), even if the car was running a time that it wasn't required to have a bar or cage at all.

 

83 crossfire - thank you for your insight. I am fully aware of the dangers of a roll bar in a car that is driven on the street. I agree that there is added risk. With that being said are you going to tell me that every car you see at a show that has any sort of roll bar/cage is so unsafe it can't be on the road? If so, then we whole heartedly disagree. For weekend cruisers you drive to shows and around town for fun, I think it is fine.

Now onto the structural benefits. Tying the left to the right (main hoop) with cross bar, helps for sure. Tying hoop to rear, when having a mini tub, and fuel cell modification to the trunk (will post pics later) helps add strength back that was removed.

Now back to the safety, with the main hoop set far enough back and tilted correctly, I think there is a more than safe way to execute a 4 point in my camaro.

 

Whether you disagree with the other guy or not, you ARE wrong. People actually DIE from having a bar in their car without wearing a helmet.

 

I never said they don't...

 

I am saying you're wrong about it safe for around town and to shows, it is not safe, people die because they think it is OK. Is it worth your life? I doubt the risk is worth it

 

Have you seen a car at a show with a roll cage?
Or a car with a swing out door kit? Or a removable harness bar? Or pro street door bars that dip down? All non NHRA legal items for the track, but they are widely used.

To wrap things up, I am perfectly ok with the risk. My life not yours.

Bask on topic...

 

Ed - Can you show us a photo of your install. Its always been an issue for me that they would show, especially on a Formula, which has no body skirts hanging down to hide them.

I'm not a fan of the Spohne's because too much welding. Want this procedure to be as minimally invasive as possible. Seems like I have read that the UMI's may have issues with dual cats.

 

I will get some pictures tomorrow. But being as **** as I am about ground clearance and how it LOOKS was a concern. I did spray paint them with Gloss Black epoxy VHT paint first and when installed, they look like a factory mod. Don't forget, they connect the front and rear sub frames with a ridged "U" shaped connection and HD round steel tubing. As far as can you see them from the side, you have to look hard to notice them, and it blends in nicely (being Gloss Black). I also painted the spot welded lip that runs along under the bottom of the sides, in semi-black paint, which again makes the SFC blend in more. Just make sure whoever installs them, to get rid of the galvanized coating on the area to be welded to get a stronger grip on the raw steel metal. Afterwards I just resprayed the welded area and they look great. As I stated once before, they have the SAME ground clearance as the dual cats (about 3 1/2"). Go on the ALSTON website to get a better idea of just what they look like .

 

Looking at the pics as-installed I think they have addressed the issue of getting around the cats. I'd be interested in how they fit in a Formula as well.

 

They clear the cat side pretty well, with a bend in the pipe that goes over them. Some slight hammer work on the underside floor HUMP may be needed (test fit this area BEFORE welding) but once done, looks like a factory piece. The MAIN REASON for doing this mod, is the AMAZING way the car feels right after the first couple of minutes driving it. NO MORE SHAKE-RATTLE OR BANG over uneven roads or hitting a pothole. Also install the IROC Wonderbar that connects the two front sub frames (it bolts into the SAME HOLES that holds up the front sway bar). These mods bring the WS6 suspension into the 21st Century. Go into a corner with this set-up and smile as you sit flat in your seat. One last mod I would recommend is get a Hotchkis Front Strut Tower Brace. Your hood shake will disappear (which also shows you how BADLY these cars were put together.).

 

OK, here are some photos (lying on my side on the floor) of the SFC from the drivers side, how they look from a distance, and the passenger cat side. Hope this helps.

 

Thanks Ed, nice shots! Its kind of hard to tell where they get below the rocker panel line. I tried to circle it in red in this photo, would you say this is as low as they go, or did I miss an area?

 

That's about as much as you can notice. I'am also laying FLAT on the ground. If you look at the exhaust pipe that comes from the engine to the cats, it hangs down enough to notice it. If you can go back and look at the pictures from Best Looking 3rd Gen wheels thread, you'll see a photo of the mostly the wheel, but also the silver painted pipe just under the rocker panel. With the ALSTON design, because it is so smooth and shiny, it really doesn't detract that much. I put some white plastic underneath those areas so you could see it better, but most of the time your parked on black asphalt. Now when your looking at the side from any distance, you can hardly pick up the pipe. Also realize that this pipe is NO lower than the cats. If you stand back and look at them from a distance, you'll also notice them, but after awhile you eye does not race to look at that spot.

 

Thanks Ed, I'm not really seeing what you are referring to in the best wheel thread. Posted link here for others to easily find. I've got a question for you that you posted in another thread. I'll ask it over there so we don't hi-jack this thread too much. I hope the OP doesn't mind too much, he seems to be looking for a better design so all options would be on the table right now.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/whee...ml#post6015451

Here's where I posted the question.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/body...ml#post6027292

 

Here's a shot of my UMI's. You can see the DS has the piece that branches off, which is part of the SFC. On the PS, the branch is a separate piece, which I did NOT weld on.
My exhaust was fabbed up from the Y pipe to the muffler, so it is NOT 100% factory. That being said, it was done before I got the SFCs. When we installed the SFCs, it was clear that piece wouldn't fit. We brought the car down off the lift and jacked it up on several places, decided for a cruising car, it was good enough. I can tell you from experience that the SFCs work amazingly! ...however for a track car where every little bit helps, might it be worthwhile to redo the exhaust and put that piece on??? -Probably. For me, without exhaust pipe fab tools/skills, it's good enough. I'm happy.

 

Oops. need the pic.

 

Those UMI's hug it pretty darn tight! I guess the question is how far down they stick down, especially for us Formula guys. BTW - Love the exhaust bypass!

 

I have that one pic I posted a little earlier that shows how far down they sit on my car, not sure if that helps though.

...as for the bypass....I wouldn't do it again. It sounds like crap wide open and I don't notice a difference. I did it back in my more naive days. Maybe on a full blown race motor it may help, but on a bolt on, L98? Nope.

 

Funny you should mention that. I had a set of Edlebrock TES headers installed and after they were bolted in, I had the motor started up before welding it back into the exhaust system. It sounded like S**T. Maybe with a cam or such, but it just sounded NOSIER. Even when I installed the BORLA system, on the dummy passenger side outlet, you can adjust the sound with different block off plates that have holes (larger or smaller) to make the sound. If you left it wide open, AGAIN it sounded like crap. I finally put in a block off plate with about a half dollar hole and now it has a nice rumble and bark at idle and a good roar at WOT.

 

I've thought about doing that too! I admit at about 25% open, it does sound good! I've got a 383 gettin' ready to drop, with a good bit more compression. Should be interesting to see how it sounds. ....at one point I'd hoped it would pick me up a few ponies, but now I'm older and frankly, as long as it sounds good!!! LOL

 

BORLA has said that mostly all of the exhaust comes out of the left side pipes. On a cold morning you don't even see ANY VAPOR coming out of the right side, but put your ear next to it and good deal of sound comes out of those pipes. BORLA has stated that if there is any BACK PRESSURE at WOT, then it can escape thru those right sides (saying that you do need to cut out some hole for that to help). I had an SLP exhaust muffler system before this and it was just too quite at idle and low speed driving.

 

Looks like that would be hidden on my T/A, with the black shield that runs along the rocker.

 

Yeah, it would hide it even more. Don't forget that if I didn't put that white sheet under it, you would have to strain to see it. Plus you could paint it FLAT BLACK and lose the reflection.

 

Good points.

 

If your four point goes from the B pillar to the back of the car it will do very little to nothing for stiffening up the chassis. All the flex in a third gen is between the front and rear sub frames. A six point will help tremendously.

 

Hi Dscott - I agree with you if my car was stock. But it is really really far from that.

I have hacked up the back of the car quite a bit with a minitub and custom floor to accommodate a fuel cell. You can see some pics here if you have a second.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/fabr...fuel-cell.html

I actually had a 6 point in the car before, I am very aware of how stiff the car feels. And that was with my horrible welding skills from when I was a kid (17). Now 32.

I am installing BMR SFC with a lot of custom touches to tie them to the pinch seam under the doors, as well as extending them inboard to contact the actual subframe in more places. I will also make this tie into the floor board right under the main hoop. This will sort of be like the two other points of the 6 point, but running under the car.

For a car that is just for cruising, ultimate stiffness is not critical for me. The 4 point is more for piece of mind for all the hacking in the rear. Give me a place to mount the 5 points as well

Once I dive into all of that I will post a thread of it all so I can get pointers as I move along. For now, I am installing a fuel access door in the trunk to access the cell.