When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Resolved: Ignition System Troubleshooting - No Crank
Tech / General EngineIs your car making a strange sound or won't start? Thinking of adding power with a new combination? Need other technical information or engine specific advice? Don't see another board for your problem? Post it here!
Resolved: Ignition System Troubleshooting - No Crank
I'm outside sanding the car, I figured I'd start the car and listen to some tunes... NOPE.
Just pulled the battery off the charger, installed, turned the key, it barely cranked and I do mean barely as in I'm not sure it even made one full revolution. All power options function, SES/INFL lights operational but no crank... it's almost like I could hear a whine or whimper from under the hood as it tried to crank the first time. All subsequent attempts was a flat out no crank, just a single click and that whine/whimper sound. Where would you start troubleshooting?
- One of the two Fusible Links?
- Ignition Switch?
- Alternator? (Since one of the two fusible links is from the alt to starter)
- 27yr old starter?
Last edited by 92RS-HeritageEd; 06-22-2019 at 04:09 PM.
Pulled the battery yesterday and put it back on the charger. Today pulled it off the charger, measured 13.3ish volts before I installed it, turned the key... Click!
Seems like that last 18mi trip might have KILLED the starter...
Do you have a load tester? I always start with the easiest most logical and in this case its the battery. I wouldn't suspect fusible links since you are getting the starter to click. If you don't have a load tester you can simulate by measuring voltage at the battery during cranking. You should see around 12 just sitting, you said 13 or better right off the charger and that seems OK, if it drops below 8 volts or so during crank (or click in your case) I would say that is your issue. If it starts to chatter you may not get a reliable reading, you can always run it to your local parts store and have it tested there. I would definitely verify your battery is good before replacing a starter.
Do you have a load tester? I always start with the easiest most logical and in this case its the battery. I wouldn't suspect fusible links since you are getting the starter to click. If you don't have a load tester you can simulate by measuring voltage at the battery during cranking. You should see around 12 just sitting, you said 13 or better right off the charger and that seems OK, if it drops below 8 volts or so during crank (or click in your case) I would say that is your issue. If it starts to chatter you may not get a reliable reading, you can always run it to your local parts store and have it tested there. I would definitely verify your battery is good before replacing a starter.
Addition: Check cable connections as well.
No load tester but about 45 days ago I had it tested and it passed, also recently replaced both battery cables, even added an additional ground and the car was running 10 days ago. After my last drive I didn't try starting it for a few days but when I did... click, that's when I first tried charging the battery. I don't have a helper so in lieu of doing it that manual way can I connect my ALDL cable and measure by what the ECM sees in TunerPro? If this will do I'll try checking this way.
You really want to see voltage at the battery but you could try. If it were me, I would pop that thing out and have it tested again just to rule it out. You could try another battery if you have one laying around, or try a jump from another vehicle. If it cranks then its a simple fix.
Cables > Replaced in another thread based on a ground cable fail.
Terminals > Just checked & didn't see any corrosion.
Battery Bolts > New
The things mentioned (Cables / Terminals / Bolts) helped me solve the Cranks But Won't Start version of this thread. The last drive I took car started fine, at two different points in the day. The very next time I tried starting it, just a couple days later... Click and that's all I've got since. Only then did I pull the battery for charging. I hadn't touched a thing before, It simply went from starting, running and driving to click.
Well if you are getting a nice hard click from the solenoid, then chances are it's the starter. But you should check for power at the solenoid wire with an incandescent test lamp while an assistant holds the key in the crank position.
Do you have a volt meter?
Test the voltage between the block of the engine (as ground) and the negative battery terminal (yes negative). If its 0 or almost 0 then you have a solid ground from bat to engine. Then do from frame to battery same test procedure.
Then do voltage between large wire at starter and engine block should be very close to battery voltage.
then do voltage test between small wire and block (key in crank position).
Then leaving the multi-meter clipped to the large wire terminal on the starter and grounded to engine block (do not do this under the car) turn the key and note the voltage drop.
Then repeat at the battery. If the voltage drop is different its wiring. If its the same then either your battery under load isn't providing the right amprage or the starter is dead. If for example you see the voltage drop below 9v/10v then I would pull the starter off and take it to autozone etc and they can test the starter for free.
I would also try to bar the engine over to make sure it isn't locked up some how.
May be worth the old trick of hitting the starter with a large wrench a few times to jar the brushes in it and see if it spins over.
Voltmeter testing an unloaded ground and power circuit when the solenoid is clicking is a useless test. The voltmeter doesn't load the circuit with enough amperage to show a voltage drop if there is enough amperage to actuate the solenoid.
Checking the brightness of a test light on the solenoid circuit is the best first step assuming his conclusion that the battery cables and terminals are good.
Well if you are getting a nice hard click from the solenoid, then chances are it's the starter. But you should check for power at the solenoid wire with an incandescent test lamp while an assistant holds the key in the crank position.
GD
Since a helper is going to be required, that test will be on hold sadly.
Originally Posted by Aviator857
Do you have a volt meter?
Test the voltage between the block of the engine (as ground) and the negative battery terminal (yes negative). If its 0 or almost 0 then you have a solid ground from bat to engine. Then do from frame to battery same test procedure.
Then do voltage between large wire at starter and engine block should be very close to battery voltage.
then do voltage test between small wire and block (key in crank position).
Then leaving the multi-meter clipped to the large wire terminal on the starter and grounded to engine block (do not do this under the car) turn the key and note the voltage drop.
Then repeat at the battery. If the voltage drop is different its wiring. If its the same then either your battery under load isn't providing the right amprage or the starter is dead. If for example you see the voltage drop below 9v/10v then I would pull the starter off and take it to autozone etc and they can test the starter for free.
I would also try to bar the engine over to make sure it isn't locked up some how.
May be worth the old trick of hitting the starter with a large wrench a few times to jar the brushes in it and see if it spins over.
Checked voltage at the main Block/Batt Ground - 0V, also checked my secondary on the brace from AC bracket to Top Of Engine it was also 0V. I'll check for Bat voltage at the starter main power wire after work. All troubleshooting that will require a helper will be on hold, I don't have anyone to assist.
None of the tests I suggested would be using the voltmeter as the load. You are loading the circuit with the starter or solenoid depending on the test. If the voltage drop is great then either you have a bad connection or bad part (drawing too many amps) when you increase the load. A less than 1 amp test light dimming is only telling you voltage drop when applied to a circuit designed for more than 12 watts (1 amp at 12 v). If you want to load it with the light then use an old fog light or something that will draw around 7-8 amps on the solenoid circuit. For the main power wire to the starter its hard to create enough of a load to verify the wiring you would need around 100-120 amps or 1200-1440 watt load before you would start to expose wiring contact resistance as the issue. But assuming the starter is drawing power but not spinning then the differential at the battery to the starter will tell you if its wires.
But personally I would pull the starter and bench test it if I'm showing proper power at the starter under load.
The ground to ground tests are showing electrical potential differences between what should be two grounds, which can tell you some interesting things if it isn't 0.
Since a helper is going to be required, that test will be on hold sadly..
You can use a extension wire with gator clips up to your multimeter if your test leads are not long enough -- so you can do it by yourself, I do it all the time when working on cars.
Yeah there's all kinds of ways to do it. Extend the leads, remote starter switch (though this does not test the solenoid circuit), and if you are really fancy you can use a PowerProbe, etc.
After all this I would be comfortable saying you are most likely looking at either the solenoid or the starter motor itself if the wiring and connections are known to be good. The good news is that you are getting the solenoid to actuate. So the only thing that isn’t happening is the starter motor turning. If you didn’t already know, when the solenoid clicks it is moving the starter gear into the flywheel ring gear while also closing a contact when fully extended to connect the starter motor to the battery positive cable. So with a good battery and good connections you are left with those two suspect items which you will probably just replace the whole unit anyway.
You can hear two clicks... With the leads connected red at BRW on starter and Black on Negative Bat Terminal when the key is in the start position voltage dropped to 12.15V down to 12.01V while holding the key in the start position for about 10 seconds...
If you wanted to take it a step further, move the clamp to the motor lead on the starter. When you turn the key and hear the click you should see battery voltage between here and negative. No voltage or low voltage means solenoid is bad and if you see 12v the motor is the problem.
Sounds like it's time for a mini starter. You can use an LT1 Corvette starter also as they are smaller gear reduction units. If you want a starter you can keep forever.......
Are all starters created equal... probably not, can I or will I put on a $600 starter absolutely not. That starter is 75% of the cost paid for the car. Understanding the advice to "avoid parts store trash", I went to trusty JEGS website. Saw a reasonably priced ($60) mini starter but it had 1 review from 1yr ago and it wasn't great, made it seem like a pos. JEGS described the brand as a "company founded with Pete's Performance, which was a small speed workshop. It began by building engines for customers as a hobby, and it has now grown to include selling, assembling, manufacturing and racing high performance engine parts. Over the years, the company has grown into a worldwide high performance powerhouse."
Anyone heard of Speedmaster brand. any experience with their starters?
Junk. If you aren't going to spend at *least* $200 on a starter, then just have yours rebuilt. Nothing in the sub-$200 catagory is even worth having. And half the one's that are around $200 aren't either. Look at the MSD offerings I guess.... I haven't found anything I really approve of besides the Meziere
Depends, I put 100000 miles on a Dualast gold starter without issue before I did the ls swap.
Mileage is a poor indicator of starter lifespan. Same with clutches. You can start the car one time and drive it over 100 miles before stopping it again. Or you can start it and not move it even 1 mile. Or at all. They have pretty loose correlation.
But yes sometimes you get lucky. I'm not a fan of Autozone, but a factory style starter for an LT1 from (insert local parts store) would probably be alright if you get the highest quality one they offer - not a reman. Still no guarantee in my opinion. See my recent alternator tear downs in the Aftermarket Product Review forum.
I look at it this way - I bought the Meziere and that starter lives on whatever I daily drive. If I sell the car or whatever and it's not my daily anymore then I swap it over and put whatever on the car - either a used stock starter to sell it, or a new one, etc. For me personally - I want the darn car to start. So I run a $300 Odyssey battery, and a $600 starter and a $600 alternator. And life is easy. My ride is reliable.
GD
Last edited by GeneralDisorder; 06-19-2019 at 10:16 PM.
I have had one of these on my Formula for about two years and have no issues so far. It’s just a basic 350 10:1 nothing real wild but not stock and it has so far performed well and is very affordable.
I have had one of these on my Formula for about two years and have no issues so far. It’s just a basic 350 10:1 nothing real wild but not stock and it has so far performed well and is very affordable.
I ended up going with a Powermaster unit, it was double the money but came with a 4.8 of 5 star review vs a 1 star $60 unit. It's actually the competitor of the one you suggested.
Also went to remove the old starter and noticed the bendix was stuck about halfway out from the flywheel. As I began unbolting the starter the force must have jarred it because the bendix sprung back in the nose cone. I left it bolted up to avoid a catastrophe, anyone got a pic of how they got their hand between the Y-Pipe and Trans Lines to hold the anchor from falling?
Removed the old starter on take 1, it was a tight squeeze but MUCH easier than I anticipated...and btw, there were no shims installed, but the Powermaster came with shims/bolts. How do I know if shims are needed?
Re: Resolved: Ignition System Troubleshooting - No Crank
The Powermaster 9100 was the first product I bought from PM and my first experience with a mini-starter.
Lasted about a year of daily driving on a stock LB9 305 and then just ate itself. I tore it down and was able to tweak it's flimsy thrust plate back into semi-flatness and got it working again but it promptly f-ed off about a week later. Everything inside was basically just chewed to dog ****. The quality of construction was terrible. I went to the 9200 next time and ran that for about another year then when inspecting I noticed some severe degradation of the power wire insulation and decided not to tempt further fate - swapped it out for a proper Meziere.
I tore down the 9200 (these are about $165) and it didn't look too bad but had pretty significant brush wear from only being in service for about a year. Brush material was all through the unit and heavily contaminated the grease in the bendix drive. I wasn't impressed. It's on a shelf for emergency use only.
The deal with Powermaster is pretty simple once you get their business model. They build their products in the US and use that to their marketing advantage but it's made from imported Chinese crap. They get all these great reviews because they sell to old codgers that buy into the USA! USA! chanting and are banking on them putting it on their hot rod that only gets driven a dozen times a year. In that scenario it will last the rest of their life. Their products WILL NOT stand daily use. Check my post in the Aftermarket Products forum where I tear down their top of the line alternator - two of which failed me in less than a year.
I have gone through two of their starters and two of their alternators on just one car in like 2 years. And all have failed save the last starter which I pulled from service due to noticeably slower cranking and visibly degraded components. I wouldn't wipe my a$$ with one of their products if it was free.
Oh and that 9100 was terrible about occasionally not engaging. Not that the flexplate teeth were perfect but the 9200 I replaced it with on the same flexplate really never had that problem - maybe half a dozen times and that's from the damage the 9100 caused to the teeth. Same shimming between the two. I attribute some of the terrible tooth wear to that 9100. I put in a new SFI flexplate when I did the Meziere and have never heard a grind since.
GD
Last edited by GeneralDisorder; 06-22-2019 at 11:10 PM.
06-16-2019, 08:51 PM
