Thanks guys ("you all" if there are any fems here).I greatly appreciate your replys. I was just trying to preserve the originality of my 15th Anniversary TA as much as possible and still have a state of the art car equal overall (combination of speed-0 to 60, 1/4 mile, top speed- power, reasonable mpg, functionality, able to carry more than 2 passengers with luggage, comfort, ergonomics, looks, CD, low cost maintenance, rarity and exclusivity, etc) to anything CARB legal out there. A CARB '05 technology 3RD GEN, yours and mine, is all of these things- otherwise why are we all here. Thanks to this board I regained my sanity and have dropped the plans of putting in a corvette IRS and a carb on an LS1. Based on your replys, I 've decided to just keep the body original but upgrade all mechanicals to CARB legal '05 technology- engine swap, legal engine options, etc.. Once I get the outside restored, things should get interesting. I'll keep posting asking for general advice-hope you don’t mind- then doing it after I actually check, research, and figure out the actual CARB REGs and cites. These regs right now confuse the hell out of me(and probably a lot more people -including the smog tester and probably even CARB) Hopefully when I'm finished, I can post for those who are interested, what I did and its cost, CARB cite backup (which I intend to carry in the car) and the net bottom line RWHP. You can then compare the cost to buying an equivalent new car. Because of the year of make and also because I used to inactivate the TA off and on, I had to go to a “test only facility” a couple of times to get it activated and smog approved so I expect to get sent to a “test only” facility by the DMV in the future with all the CARB certified bells and whistles on- but not for the ’84 year. What will happen then may be of some interest to the Board. You may want to hold on to your 3RD GENS because once CARB upgraded to ’05 Tech, I don’t think that even new cars, bought at far higher prices are better-this why I’m upgrading and restoring my 3RD GEN to be my drivers car good enough to get the groceries, take up to three friends beach cruising, take trips with one friend (and her luggage) in comfort, drive onto a race track, perform decently, and then drive to a client’s party and not be embarrassed having a valet park it. You all will know one way or the other what the results are.

 

Any car over ten years old automatically goes to test only. That is why you went to test only and why all third gens will have to go to test only in perpetuity. I personally like test only. The tech has no incentive to try to sell you anything. The other thing is that most test only techs look at so many different cars that they probably don't even notice if something isn't stock. Occasionaly you will find a tech that wants to fail the visual for headers, you just go elsewhere.

 

The cool thing also is if he fails you for a visual and you are in fact legal he gets a 3,000 dollar fine

 

I've just called ahead of time to make an appointment at a test-only smog station that understands what kind of car I own

 

Not always true, it's based on age AND statistics. Test onlys are now getting 1999 Silvirados too. They're test-only because of the stupid VORTEC idea. They run rich when a poppet gets stuck open, then they fail because they can't compensate for it.

Also not true in all cases. Unless you can prove that you gave him the appropriate information that says that the modification is legal, then you are at fault and the tech did exactly the right thing. It is the owners responsibility to make sure that they give the technician the info needed to prove that the modification is legal, and to make sure it's legal before it's installed on the vehicle.

 

If I understand you correctly, all 10 year old cars automatically go test only, but newer cars may be required to go test only if they have some issues that cause problems. Is that correct?

 

No, not all cars 10 years old or older go to test only.

 

It's all about statistics. Everytime a vehicle gets tested, a call to the Vehicle Information Database (VID) is initiated and the results are recorded. The State computer then uses the fail percentage to identify groups of vehicles that fail more often than they pass. Age is a factor in determining it, along with the pass/fail ratio, but there is no set limit as to when they go test-only.

As for you swap, just so I don't totally hijack your thread. Here's what you have to remember.

1) If you do an engine swap, it has to be a engine package that is already approved for sale in a commercial vehicle that is the same age or newer than that of the vehicle getting the swap.

2) Any emissions stuff that was originally on the engine must also be transfered in the swap. Meaning if you go to anything 1996 or newer, all the OBD-II stuff has to be included in the swap, all the way down to the EVAP monitor stuff and DLC location.

3) You cannot swap an engine package that is certified for trucks into a passenger vehicle.

4) Once you get the swap completed, you'll have to make an appointment with your local referee center to get it inspected. They WILL do a complete check over, including putting the vehilce in the air if needed to verify that all emmisions controls are present and hooked up properly. If you do an OBD-II swap, you have to install OBD-II compliant Cat-Convertors also.

5) Once the vehicle has been checked with the referee center to be compliant, the car will now be smogged as whatever year engine package you installed. So, if you install a 1995 LT1 in the car, the car will cease to be an '84 for smog reasons, but will now be a '95. This does not change the actual Model year of the vehicle though, so DMV records will still show the vehicle as a 1984 for registration purposes.

If you have any specific questions about this stuff, please let me know. I am a California Smog Tech, and have worked Test-Only before, so I know the rules and will do my best to answer anything for you. Just let me know.

Good Luck,
Jeff

 

The state data crunching ("statistics") is a ploy to make us think they know what they are doing, if we are stupid anyway. Their numbers and propoganda dont add up, never have, never will.

 

If you had ever worked at a test-only, you'd know that they are almost always accurate. This system is a federaly mandated thing, not a state thing.

Californians are really gonna hate when the EPA takes the program over. We are going to go to what's called an I/M 240 test, much harder to pass, plus we'll continue with a full visual and funtional inspection.

Unfortunatly, this is not a "Pro Smog Check/Con Smog Check" discussion. This is about working within the limits that there are. Lets try to keep it on topic so that novmoonstarscan get the info needed for the swap.

 

Ok heres a question if you were doing an engine swap like a 305 to a 350 would you have to go to a referee? If he is just upgrading the block but still running all the emission equipment that was allready in their then what would be the problem. It would be like putting in a a 350 into a 305 right. I understand that it would be a ls1 block but if he finds a way to ge hi origina;l equipment hooked up to it he shouldnt have a problem. Well my 2 cents

 

Technically yes. Just dont tell anyone, and hope they never look too close. Then act real stupid if someone notices. lol

I'm not going to get into it but the numbers the state publishes are a joke, its a total insult to anyone with more than 1 IQ. Their only purpose is to make their program look good. And it is theirs, it is run by the state not the feds. The feds are not here, they do not run our smog check system, the BAR does. The EPA only has power to force the state to implement programs they want us to, at the threat of pulling federal funds.

I wonder what happens when you take a LG4, convert it to 2005 LS6? I'll bet the DMV still flags that "LG4" car for test only.

 

BTW, you might want to visit the Engine Swap board, there is more information there about smog legalities that I posted than you ever wanted to know. It should still be a sticky, I would think. There is also a LS1 swap board within that, with some quite useful information there as well.

 

Well.... based on what your all saying ..... should I decide to take my 84 off non op status, and since it only has 12,000 miles on the clock, it should be test only in the future regardless of how well it passes. Is this a correct assumption.

 

Hard to say. The picking of cars is somewhat random, and somewhat not. They have certain models/years of vehicles they go after (yours would be on that list) and then they pick some of those to go to test only. Its not necessarily all of them, but probably more than 50%. It used to be a random 15% in enhanced areas but as usual with gov't authorities that lasted about as long as it takes me to change my socks.

The problem I have with it is it costs me more than otherwise, and I havent found a place that I can drop off my car and pick it up later. Other than that, they arent going to find anything funny that would prevent me from passing the test so it doesnt matter to me. It will also force you to make a second or third trip if for some reason the car fails, you cant have it repaired at that location. Bad gas cap is a pretty common failure. Then you gotta take it back if you dont want to pay even more and thats only if they will do a retest for you.

 

MadMax, I don't mean to start any trouble with you, I value your opinions and would never intentionally insult you, but if you're going to start telling a Smog Tech how the program works, you better either have your facts straight or have a smog license yourself. Preferably Both.

Our current program is run by the BAR, but there are certain things that the state has to do to get the federal funding and if you read my original post, then you would have seen this part:

Emphasis on "gonna"

Now, I never said that the program works or is 100% accurate or that I agree with everything in it. I'm just stating what the actaul rules are and how they go about figuring out what is HEP and what isn't, most of the time they are accurate, that's about 75% of the time.

The program started with about 15% of all vehicles being sent to Test-Only Stations. 13% were HEP and 2% were random. Any Test-Only that you walk into is required by law to have a sign posted that states this. It is no longer accurate though. A lot more vehicles are sent to Test-Only Stations. As more and more cars are bought and sold, that percentage gets bigger. That's how it is.

Yes, it will be a test-only vehicle.

If the engine that you are installing is from the exact same year and was available in the make and model of vehicle from the factory, it is a legal swap without having to go to the referee center to get an inspection.

Now, changing the block by installing an LS1 block with all of the '84 emissions stuff on it technically is illegal, but what are you gaining by just changing the block but not the intake, exhaust, or anything else on the outside, there is very little power or reliability to be gained there. Maybe just a weight difference, but that's it. You can change the block and no one will know, that's why I'll be installing a 3.4 under all of my current 2.8 stuff. I'll get a difference since I am upping the displacment, but it will all look stock. That way, if I ever sell it, it's good to go for the next guy who doesn't have a hook up to get something illegal smogged.

We should get a seperate forum to discuss California Smog Stuff. That way I don't feel guilty about hijacking this poor guy's thread.

I do apologize for it, but at least there is some tech stuff mixed in with all the junk that might help you make your decision and journey easier. Not looking to start a war, but I do think that people need to respect those with the training an knowledge that they have and stop blaming me(by that I mean the Smog Techs in general) for them having to go to test-only.

Here's how people can fix this problem. Go out, buy a new car, you'll be exempt for 4 years from having to get any kind of smog test done. Sell the car at the end of 4 years, buy another. You never have to get a smog done and the state doesn't ever see any of your money(the whole $8.25 for the cert, that's it), and I can do my job without harassed. Pretty soon, the state will see that people are buying cars that don't need to be smogged and the program will eventally die. problem solved, no more Test-only.

Jeff

 

Why not...its so much fun

 

Mainly because it's rude and I don't really want to end up being "Dean'ed"...lol J/K Dean

 

"This system is a federaly mandated thing"
As you said the BAR runs it, under state laws not federal.

"As more and more cars are bought and sold, that percentage gets bigger."
No it doesnt.

I dont want to start anything either, but if I see something I dont agree with I am going to say so. If you think its personal, well... not my problem.

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 2_point8_boy
[

We should get a seperate forum to discuss California Smog Stuff. That way I don't feel guilty about hijacking this poor guy's thread."

No need to feel guilty about hijacking this thread. The information from everyone's posts both from the technical end as well as from the practical side are excellent and superb As a novice I am finally getting a good feel of what the problems are. Hope everyone feels the same.The emotion in these posts shows that I'm not nuts when people tell me to get rid of my car cause its just sitting there, Well, if I'm nuts -so are all of you or just maybe its the other people, CARB included, who are nuts.Well since 1984, I took the TA wherever I went no matter what other car I drove cause I couldn't stand to get rid of it. What I don't really understand is why my 15th anniversary TA stick, which gets 14 miles to a gallon and can be reved up to 6500 rpm with 4 barrels open cannot have the engine swapped for a later high-tech engine which gets much better milage and pollutes the air a lot, lot less. California only let a handful of these cars in (kicking and screaming) under the fleet average loophole. You would think that CARB would be jumping up and down with joy and even give me an award since I am willing to swap this "old" worn out , polluting, and "rev until it explodes" legal pest for a modern engine that gives much better mpg and does not have worn out seals. By the way I still met all the smog tests superby at 25 MPH- after the max test limit its anything goes-smog away. I also read somewhere the the LS7 will get 25 mpg (true or not) which is much higher than What I get now legally. Something is really wacky here and contrary to what the law was written to begin with.Here I am basically being prevented from decreasing the pollution from my car by 1/3 or maybe even 1/2 (just by having a newer, tighter and far more fuel efficient high tech engine). Is there any way I can get hold of CARB and get an exemption (probably fat chance in hell) based upon the above argument/statistics- some phone number, e-mail, letter address? Maybe they can tell me how to do it. Anyone know of a lobbying organization for us or our suppliers? We should be permitted to cut pollution by going to a more recent, less polluting engines as the California and Federal lawa intended.

 

Glad to see nothing is being taken personally, I hate fo crap to go down like that, just a good ol' fashioned disagreement.

 

NOVMOONSTARS,
It is really not much of a problem for you to update your car. Your car is one year too old to have tpi, but the 85 tpi ecm is not as good as the newer ecms anyway. If you upgrade to a newer system that is still obd1, you make an appointment with a referee, he looks it over to see that everything is, signs off on it, and you have it smogged as a newer model. I think they put a sticker with a bar code in the door jamb, and the smog tech scans that sticker. I may be wrong there because the referee may be able to just update his inspection results to your factory vin #. To put a 90-92 tpi in your car, for instance, you just need the newer engine, all smog related sensors and hardware, a 7730 ecm, and either have your harness rewired or replace it with a new custom wiring harness. It gets more difficult but still doable if you want to swap in an Lt1 or Ls1 or newer engine. The Lt1 engine went to Optispark distributorless ignition. If you want an Lt1, you need to convert everything to the new system. After the first couple of years with Lt1, they went to obdII. The obdII ecms monitor a lot more stuff. They have more sensors. They have an o2 sensor before and after the cat for instance, the ecm in obdII can read those two sensors and tell if your cat is working. ObdII also can see parts that are failing and give warning before they fail. You can still swap in any engine newer that will fit including the latest Ls7, but you need to do it exactly as the factory designed it including all of the smog equipment that is on that latest engine.

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Russ-So Cal
[B]NOVMOONSTARS,
It is really not much of a problem for you to update your car. ......"


Its settled then- there had to be a way out of my and everyone elses dilemma- and there is per your post.

 

You most certainly CAN put a newer engine in your car and be smog legal. But it sounded like in your previous posts you wanted to put an LS1 block with your carburator on it, which is NOT smog legal. To swap in an LS1 or LS2 or LS6 or LS7, you need to swap everything, including intake, computer, and all smog equipment. You cannot mix and match what you want. It is swap all or swap nothing. Plus, you would need to swap an engine from a car. You cannot swap truck engines into cars.

 

Also, somthing to add to the list of rules, if your car is california certified, meaning it met california emissions standard, not just federal standard, when it was built, you have to install a CA certified emissions package on it, you can't upgrade to newer stuff that's certified as Federal Standards. It has to be CA standards, but that's ONLY if you already have a CA certified car.

The emissions sticker under the hood will tell you. It says something like "This vehicle conforms to US EPA and California Emissions regulations for the 1984 Model Year." Federal cars just leave out the CA stuff in that phrase.

 

Almost everything has CA emisisons certification on it now, doesnt it? A lot of the states that have emissions tests are very similar to CA in that regard.

 

A lot of new cars are, but I have seen some that aren't.

A couple weeks ago I tested a 2002 Malibu with a 3.4L and it was Federally certified.

 

I am the original owner who bought the 84 TA brand new from a Pontiac dealer in Glendale. I don't mind meeting any law as long as I can do it and become legal within a reasonable cost similar to the cost incurred in buying the engine as a component in a California legal new vehicle. I don't want the completely new vehicle which is the inferior to the TA except for the engine based upon newer technology, I just want the new engine- including whatever emissions control comes with it. Since my car is a california smog legal car for every instant since it was brought into California by the dealer, under this scenario, is there anything to prevent me from swapping the original legal engine(carbed and manual as original equipment) with a LS1 or later fuel injected aluminum engine with the California legal emissions controls and a 6 speed manual

 

Nope, you can do that. You will need to visit the referee, but thats the only headache spot besides the swap itself.