camarocasanova

iTrader: (1)

I have failed for the 4th time. I am over it. 89 LB9 2.73 auto federal car

Pic below of test. I cannot understand how the hc requirement can be so low.

I have replaced: injectors, 02 sensor, plugs, wires, cap, rotor, fuel filter, 195 thermostat, map sensor, coolant temp sensor, pcv valve, egr valve, new ignition module, new coil, brand new paper air filters, all rubber hoses and lines. NO broken or cracked lines. EGR module works I checked it.

Has shiny brand new CATCO california compliant cat.

I have seafoamed it 3 times through the brake line 3 full cans, also ran it about 100 miles through tank and oil.

I cleaned the plenum and runners out and installed new gaskets, and cleaned the egr passages. I completely cleaned out the throttle body top to bottom including IAC. Cleaned the MAF with MAF cleaner twice.

Reset IAC and TPS to .54 volts

I found it had a hypertech chip, so I got a stock tune.

I upped the air pressure in the tires, set timing at 3 BTDC (max I can by law +/-3 degrees)

I put 3 gallons 87 octane with 2 cans of HEET isoprohyl alcohol to try and get a cleaner burn in the tank. Fresh 20/50 oil thinking maybe the hc was from valve seals leaking oil into combustion chamber.

I am simply out of ideas. I am thinking because of the 2.73 gears it just doesn't have a chance to get high enough in the RPMs and of course the smog techs won't leave it in 1st gear anymore.

As the thread going around says "Good luck passing smog" I am living this.

Guest

So you failed the Hc with the 25 mph? Wow I cant believe how low the co% is now. Let me get my previous numbers and see what they have done thats not good on the co%
When my build was fresh 15 mph co% I measured 0.01 and 25 mph I tested 0.36
Max used to be 0.71 at 15 mph and 25 mph 0.58

Are the Hc max 83 an 59?
It used to be 108 an 83 25 mph

I measured a 15 an 25 mph 28. My I hope my smog results didnt hurt being so clean now considering there more strict.

With my newer failed results I hope new convertors and re tuning help me pass.
Your valve leaks are not the problem. How many miles do you have on the engine. I would like to see the Esclades smog results and where there at with that motor. With those new numbers I hope I can pass also. You probably need to re tune with a wide band. and further check into anything else. You should be using 10-30 oil. not that oil. I dont know what your factory timing is but you need to re tune at factory by timing can be 6 btdc but I pass with 7 btdc an gains 20 hp there. You could use better gearing. You also need to be producing power to have a better smog result. Re think an check things over. I dont know much about Lb9's that a Tbi right? And I dont know about that converter, you should have went with a carsound Magna Flow cat instead. And you shouldnt be using all that stuff in your gas. Use 89 Shell gas.

Guest

You also need to run your car on the freeway and warm that cat up and smog and dont shut the engine off. Ok if fans are running. If thats a tbi your not getting any air. For me the fan they use blows into the ram air. Then you need to have Kevin L tune your car with a wide band. Hopefully he can help you. He retuned my car and It improved but even after that I had a friend tune with a wide band and really cleaned it up more, have not smogged it after the new tune but I ran 115 octane an messed my converter up. Im buying my new Dual convertors. Two convertors mean better smog results and you gain more hp also.

Guest

They are also being strict with the co% at 25 mph you have to have less than 15 mph. Usually at 25 mph you should be higher with the results but now there more strict at 25 mph than the 15 mph.. Give me those numbers I cant see them
Im seeing Hc 83 an 59... and the co% 0.50 an 0.41, My passed test at 25 mph with the co% went from a 0.01 to a 25 mph 0.36 so If I can hit those numbers again I would pass.

my Hc used to be 15 an 25 mph 28

Your problem has to be your cat and a chip tune. Or to many miles on your car. and the timing possibly.

KiLLJ0Y

iTrader: (1)

Are you using headers or stock manifolds? That replacement EGR, is that an oem GM part or one you got from vatozone?

If you are using headers, there is a trick Dyno Don did on my car to help, he slightly enlarged the hole on the EGR vacuum port. I would PM Don and see what his ideas are, if there is one person who knows how to make these cars pass, it's him.

MAC_87

iTrader: (3)

Oddly, My old '98 ford taurus failed smog as a "gross polluter" (drove it ALL day + freeway). took it in a few weeks later (to a different shop) after applying for gov't assistance, decided id take it in to see what needed to be done in the AM after letting it sit overnight, and it passed with flying colors w/o anything needing to be done.

One: I highly suggest taking your camaro to a different smog shop (their equipment may be faulty); Two: I suggest trying to let it sit all night and then take it in First thing in the morning.

I was able to get a refund for the "Gross polluter" status my car got at the previous smog shop.

Luckily when i got my camaro, all it needed was a new cat + new o2 sensor and i passed.

camarocasanova

iTrader: (1)

It is a TPI not TBI 305

Timing is set at 4 BTDC instead of factory 6 in hopes of reducing HC and NOX

Miles are up there but low for being 23 years old

Car is 99% stock just has magnaflow muffler

Stock ECM stock programming now

EGR is a NAPA product

So like I said dunno....I guess I can try another smog shop but it keeps failing HC and I am out of ideas other than some kind of mechanical issue but it runs like a champ.

Kidfromthe951

I don't know where you are located but if you have a extra couple hundred bucks laying around, there are several shops in San Bernardino that will "push your car through" for a "fee". Several of my friends with heavily modded Subaru's and EVO's that are not street legal take this route. I'm sure most people will tell you to try to take the legit route, but this is an option...good luck.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Maybe have Kevin Lorentzen have a look at it. It might be on the rich side for some reason at the 25mph test point. He can lean it out some.

Guest

Once your car is a gross pulluter there is no changing it. Gm smogged my car and put the Vin wrong and it was put under a gross polluter. I think most 3rdgens are gross polluters, there is not reverse for that, it goes to the state and there is no changing it. Maybe he refunded you your money, a tech cant change the State.

SixSeriesCSi

iTrader: (11)

I know of a place in Los Angeles it's a Heavy Fee Based Deal, Call me if you are intrested 562-233-8396...

SiCkRs

iTrader: (6)

If you like and you are around the Norwalk and aint doing nothing on mon night from 7 to 10pm i have a smog class and we could put it on the dyno and find the problem my teacher knows all about this. pm me if you would be interested.

Guest

Does anybody know this guy having problem and where he is from. You all are welcoming him a big surprise when he comes back to Tgo, He can pm me also I can help him out with two ways. That he can think an consider.

Guest

I dont know you should have your timing factory specs. your losing hp there. Im sure Kevin can work with your Hc but unsure of the co% you would have to contact them if all what every one is offering in what they do.

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

This sounds like the best idea to me. He has access to better equipment and actual emissions readings. I just have a scan tool that shows me what the computer is seeing.
When I failed the test over and over last year due to high HC, it turned out to be a bad cap and rotor. But you already changed those.

camarocasanova

iTrader: (1)

Some of you may know me I used to own this:




I sold it a few years ago at Barrett Jackson

Now I bought myself this 89 IROC convertible thought it would be a fun stock cruiser to own, but this smog situation is seriously taking away the fun factor right now.

vindeezl

iTrader: (2)

Welcome to the great state of Kommiefornia

Guest

I have to agree with Kevin with this one. My way cost 2 bills. But he needs his car to be actually fixed so he doesnt have these issues next smog. Hopefully they have a wide band and can get the readings or does the equipment give you the o2 readings? , but I believe he needs a chip tune Kevin. First find out the problem with the teacher and student, wide band readings, and chip tune for the final touch.

For me being richer in Hc and nearly passing, I did a wide band tune at those levels and removed a lot of that un needed fuel.

Then if the teacher finds the problem Id set the timing back to factory specs. Sometimes we feel we need to adjust timing for Hc but thats not always the case. You need the correct timing through out the timing map in the chip and fuel needs to be removed. And regards to the co% hopefully the teacher has an answer for all of us. Im really interested in whats wrong and what he needs to be done. Glad to see that every one is giving the advice that we all have learned through out the years.

Was that 4th gen a V-6 model and thats why you sold it? I used to own a flamed Iroc but my flames where much diffrent some people didnt like it some did. mostly woman because it had that female attraction that they liked. Very expensive paint and art work an sterling silver and gold leaf.

Good Luck with everything.

SiCkRs

iTrader: (6)

We have two actual smog machines, we could take out cars and do the test just like if it was in the smog station. As for wideband O2 im not exactly sure since everyones cars we smog passes haha. So this is would be a great learning experience for me as well if he brings his car.

88fastgta

iTrader: (9)

wow.... california is crazy in smog..... i hope they dont get like that here in NC....

Guest

The Important factor will be the students and the teacher, He should bring his check off sheet of everything he has replaced. And if everyones car passes Is it a Test Only Schooling lol lilttle humor there, because if nothing can be found why those results are what they are. And most important the c0 levels. If it does not pass our you all cant find out anything.

What needs to be done is Kevin needs to use wide band and Don needs to put in another o2 Bung for the wide band. Kevin needs to use his Ostrich equipment and tune that fuel curve and remove some fuel. Where looking at to be tuned to Air ratio settings through out the perimeter. Kevin can say yes you all have the equipment and the teacher but the problem is in the tuning of this vehicle. And esp. with milage a car needs a tune up and thats all what he has done but it's time to get into this cars brain and start working on it from there.

rock861261

I had a 91 tuned port that I couldnt get to pass so I would disconnect the fans from the ecu and get it good and hot then run the test and then quickly ground the fans would work every time.

injdinjn

I would definitely take advantage of this.

Years ago our class was canceled and I wandered into the auto shop and watched the teacher check out a students new old international pickup, that instructor did things with the circa 1970 antagonistic machine I didn't think could be done, turning cyls on and off, changing timing,etc.

MAC_87

iTrader: (3)

Meh, what i meant was - despite it being labeled as a "gross polluter" it passed with flying colors the next time. The second smog shop was 100% baffled as to how in the world itd do so bad when it did so well at their shop.
I honestly believe the first shop had faulty equipment.

camarocasanova

iTrader: (1)

I am definately going tomorrow evening, what a great board with so much knowledge and helpfulness, especially in the Socal section.

Thanks SiCk Rs for the help out !!


-As for my old camaro it was an LT1 with a vortec supercharger blower cam etc probably about 450 horse although it was built for the show circuit. I am glad I got over that way of life lol..

Guest

Sounds nice. Good Luck with everything tomorrow.

camarocasanova

iTrader: (1)

Well, got her down there and the teacher decided not to have a "shop" day...But SiCk Rs and I put it on the scan tool and at least saw the O2 sensor was going up and down like it should and everything else looked ok. I really appreciate the opportunity thanks for taking the time SiCk Rs. It stinks we couldn't get it on the dyno though.

SiCkRs

iTrader: (6)

I apologise again for the long drive over here. Tommorow ill give you a call the teacher told us a couple lil things you could do as well to test it yourself. Also he said you should get it checked why we were not getting any power to from the connector that really surprised him. He apologized to for not being able to help you out more.

Guest

What connector was he not getting power too? He needs an actual Wide Band for his air fuel ratio, those scan tools are not the best tools to use. If he has failed and paid his registration and paid the 50.00 fee to dmv for the two month moving permit then he needs to get these things resolved right away. The dyno is going to show the same readings as which you would have a tuner use. And it can be changed an tuned while driving the 15 mph and the 25 mph. Then put it on your dyno there at the school. Then once he passes then he needs Kevin to tune the whole range of the chip. I would also research any information on that Catco cat he bought, has anyone had any problems with them in the passed. Then the problem could be the non power connector but that is probably not the key. So with his stock chip he needs to talk to Kevin about the modifications to the chip. Hc is unburned fuel and there is nothing on the motor to really make any adjustments, other than the timing like he did. But that timing needs to be factory specs. Does he have a fpr? maybe he should get one if he doesnt and have that set to specs also. He needs to know what psi his fuel is at and if the injectors are getting the correct fuel pressure. And when you change the timing like you did, you need to do that in the chip. If you dont do any of these things then your not going to get very far. Are you understanding this?

camarocasanova

iTrader: (1)

The ALDL would connect with the scantool showing us live readings from the ecm but it would not scan for codes for some reason> the car has had no codes stored in it from day one as I have checked them with a paper clip and only get 1-2 showing no codes.

I paid up and do have the "4" sticker so I can drive it anywhere

The catco is a california compliant cat and is the correct one for my car (I checked)

the catco seems small but I am sure putting a larger one for a different vehicle on it is not legal (although I bet it WOULD pass because of having a larger surface area to clean up emissions)

Guest

Yeah if your vehicle had any codes the smog tech would have known. So this non powered wiring has nothing to do with a code. Meaning it's probably not effecting your smog results.

The cat is just not to sure of that brand, most people use a magna flow cat. There more better designed now than before. You need to get that thick oil out also. You should use what your engine says to use. 10-30 being max in this weather. 60wt Valvoline is for like racing any thing thick is for High temp use meaning a cooler temp. You need temp in your block so you need to put 10-30 in it. You could use and adjustable fuel pressure regulator like I mentioned. Is this a Tbi car I dont know much about tbi but Im sure they have some sort of afpr. That way you can set your fuel pressure and be sure it's where it needs to be. Does your car smell like a classic when you first start it up? Are you smelling any rich while it warms up? Just from my understanding you have done a complete tune up you just have not tuned the chip in the car. You should take your car back where you got that cat. It should be under warranty tell them look I replaced all this. This cat is not working, if they honor it swap it out for a magna flow cat that is for your Vin Car. And be sure you have not exhuast leaks any leaks you can fail and your back pressure wont be where it needs to be. Chip tune or cat gotta be one or the other.

camarocasanova

iTrader: (1)

It is a TPI not a tbi for clarification..

I am going to pull a few plugs and take a peek then run more seafoam through it.

If needed I'll change the plugs again and I will talk to the exhaust shop about it not passing. Most people are absolutely perplexed by it not passing at this stage.

I have considered an afpr to trim it down just a bit it is definately on my radar screen

Guest

oh cool so it's tpi.. Yeah check those plugs if you have not replaced them then go for it, just another part of your tuning process.

Seafoam I have never heard of but there is other products out there to lower your emissions. None of these products should be needed to pass smog. Yeah buy a afpr and get it to the factory specs. Will be waiting to here from the exhaust shop on what they have to say. If you replace the plugs get the best you can get that will create a cleaner ignition. Good Luck.

camarocasanova

iTrader: (1)

pulled #1 plug looks like its running LEAN wow....tan color no carbon whatsoever.

Plugs have about 400 miles on them, ac delco rapidfire #2

I ran the gasses through a lambda calculator and it says I am at approximately 16:1 so that confirms what the plug looks like running lean...Odd I was thinking I needed to lean it out because of unburned fuel (HCs)

TA

iTrader: (1)

I'm not sure if anyone mentioned, but you must test it under the same conditions as the test does to know weather you need to go leaner or richer. If you hook to a wide band, you need to simulate 15 and 25 MPH and hold it to know if it is lean or rich in that spot.

Guest

If your running that lean and your having Hc problems thats bad. You need to get rid of that..So where are you at now? Have you taken the car back where you bought the converter? What's going on and whats your next plan?

Guest

Id replace that rear end with something better. Your car is lugging power with those gears. You gotta be producing good power for the smog. Those gears were ok back when we didnt have to dyno smog.

camarocasanova

iTrader: (1)

Yeah I was thinking a 3.42 gear might put it in a more sweet spot. I have put in the stock ac delco copper plugs, and I just resealed the intake manifold as it was leaching oil and some coolant that was observable. I found the intake manifold egr passages were not plugged up at all, nor were the passages in the heads for the egr. I did find two large chunks of carbon in the lifter valley, and also carbon on the heads. So I plugged all the oil passages and chipped everything out into a shop towel, and carefully vacuumed it all out. It sealed up nicely holds vacuum steady. I also checked fuel pressure no issues. So I will do some more pretesting and go from there.

rob2000gt

iTrader: (1)

I say move out of California and wont have to do all of this. I cant believe how strict they are over there with the dyno test how much does all this cost. Did you pass last year If you did what all did you change before testing this year. That might help get to the bottom of this issue or get rid of the guy that made these strict rules.

BretD 88GTA

If you're running lean, then your NOx numbers should be higher. A lean condition will yield super low HC numbers and high NOx.

Running rich will typically give low NOx but higher HC.

Here's some additional useful info. With a typical scanner, you can get a good idea of how the engine is running by monitoring the Block Learn and Integrator counts. This will help you determine if you're running rich or lean.

"The factory ECM/PCM has a Learning capability which allows it to make corrections for minor variations in the fuel system to improve performance and driveability. There are two learning features. The Integrator and Block Learn (I and BL) and Block Learn Memory (BLM) cell. The I and BL feature is normal with a value of around 128. If this value is higher than 128, it indicates that the ECM is adding fuel to the base fuel calculation because the system is running lean, a value lower than 128 indicates that the ECM is taking out fuel because the system is running rich. The integrator is a short term corrective action while the BLM is along term correction. The BLM value will change if the integrator has seen a condition which lasts for a longer period of time."

Guest

He got it passed Bret. He appreciates all the help everyone. I told him give me a heads up if he runs into problems again.

PUNISH3R

iTrader: (2)

Wow, I can't believe he went through all that! I bought my '89 Formula and rolled it onto the smog tester and it failed. The smog guy was using all the tricks for me too. Then he told me the 3rd Gens failed even when they were brand new!...worst $45 I ever spent. I shouldn't have even given the Liberal Republic of Commufornia a chance. I'm a Florida resident so I went that route. Simple.

Mr. IROC-Z

iTrader: (1)

So what fixed the problem?

Gunnar1

I'm interested also in what fixed the problem.

Mr.84TransAmer

Possibly his friend Ben Franklin?

Guest

No that was not the case.

camarocasanova

iTrader: (1)

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Bingo! All these posts and he could have either purchased a wideband, or rented a scanner, and immediately have known the air/fuel ratio at a given RPM, then have a chip burned to reduce pulse width in that particular area...

Guest

Well put it this way for two years he has all those parts he bought new. Nothing wrong for trying. we told him to tune the car with a wide band an see Kevin but he said the place he went with the schooling had more equipment. Kevin just needed to say bring it over and lets tune this roll. I had a friend do the same thing for me wide band a 15mph and a 25 mph an 30 mph. It's real quick only takes 30 minutes..

Dakota W.

Just move to oregon, mine passed with readings worse than yours lol.