I'm going to be ordering spohn SFCs, possibly a new wonder bar (some1 tell me its worth buying a spohn one, I've already got the stock IROC one), LCAs and relocation brackets, and panhard rod. I know shocks/struts will be next but I'm unclear as to which to get for a good price. I was thinking KYB gas-a-just or AGX, but many on here say they're not much better than stock.

Please don't tell me to do a search, could someone knowing suspension please answer the question?

 

Bilsteins.

RBob.

 

don't be afraid to give me part numbers too...forgot to add that part.

 

http://www.spohn.net/category.cfm?categoryid=1052

this is the link to the sfc's, if it works.

I need new springs like nobody's business, but i noticed the sfcs right away. Best thing I have done for my car thus yet. Feels much more tighter, and i won't have to worry about twisting the car into pieces.

Springs and a spohn wonderbar are on my to come list after i get my new crate motor in

 

Way back when, I ordered a Global West steering box brace only to discover that my IROC was already equiped. I swapped anyway because the Global peice was much beefier. I noticed no difference and doubt there is any. If I had to do it over again, I'd save my money.

JamesC

 

not to be a dick but that didn't help too much...i've got the spohn stuff all taken care of its the shocks/struts that I don't know what to do with...which ones will work best with my application...I just want an awesome handling daily driver...there won't be any autoX going on, but itd be nice to have a car that could do it just incase, along with an occasional trip to the strip...

springs will come later for me due to my conflicting thoughts on it, yes the car will handle better, but with my headers and stuff...that'll make my ground clearance in the middle of the car betwen the y-pipe and hooker i-pipe about 2 inches if I dropped my car 2 inches, due to me having like 4 inches now.

so yea, please recommend just shocks/struts for me with part numbers

 

You will see a big difference with the SFC's. If you are still running the original shocks and struts, the KYB's will make a significant difference. I agree, Bilsteins are the way to go, but they are pricey. Also, if it has never been done, you are probably ready for new bushings, etc, in the suspension.

LCA's are a great idea, you are on the right track. I would give the Steering brace a miss if you already have one stock, you will not notice any difference. You might consider a Strut tower brace. But most critical now will be Tires. What kind and size of tires do you have? You might also get the Trans Am WS-6 sway bars, if they are bigger than what you have on your IROC. Measure them and check out any GTA or Formula, they are stock with WS-6 suspension package.

Also, when you are done with your new struts, get the alignment spec's from the FAQ section of the board for best handling. It cures a lot of the front end push and makes a huge difference.

...then for the horsepower!

Troy
So Cal

 

Yea i shouldda told you guys what tires I have...

I just bought them brand new so I dont plan on getting new ones for a while...

BFG G-Force KDWS 245/50/ZR16 (I need that all season stuff for living in New Jersey).

What model bilsteins though? What about Konis?

 

Sorry to bust in But you might want to send the SFC back as they are not all that good. you might try thr S&W race car ones as they are a much better design.
http://www.swracecars.com/index.asp

 

what do you mean theyre not all good...and i cant find subframe connectors on that page you linked.

 

http://www.swracecars.com/camaro_boltOn.asp

I plan on getting those as well, just going to weld it on instead

 

Whoa whoa whoa I'm still confused as to why the Spohn SFCs aren't all that good?

 

Cant say they arent any good, there was a good discussion maybe 4 days ago on here about it, search through the last few days.


Im sure it is better than nothing anything is actually

 

Ok i did a search and came up with a debate on spohns wonderbar vs tds wonderbar...every other post about spohn SFCs are about how good they are.

yea.

 

Can I see the link? I've been looking at the TDS wonderbar as an addition to my car simply b/c I think "lonsal" is an alright kinda dude.

 

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=250688

there you are my friend.

 

All of the so-called "wonderbars" do the same thing. Even if one may seem beefier than another, it really has no benefit as the less beefy one is still accomplishing the same goal. Unless your steering brace happens to be paper thin, you shouldn't notice a difference between any of them.

That said, if you do notice a difference between each brace or even a difference between a brace and no brace, your car has a problem to begin with. vsixtoy was most explicit when he explained how it works in his post on the other thread.

The weld quality review was a joke. Outside appearances of welds doesn't tell the whole story as to how good they are.

 

I thought i was talking about subframe connectors not a wonderbar.

 

I'll buy your old bar

 

They are not BECAUSE (See, I give facts) they are not sheer welded for torsoinal twisting in corners.

 

Sure I will give you some reasons even if you cant goto the site and see for your self why they are better but here goes.
A) Bolt on or weld on SFC (confirmed with one of sw race cars engineers). This is for racing in stock car type racing with bolt on mods only.
B) Better over all design due to several facts, one is these SFC actually attatch the two subframes together! and not with an after thought bar. The main connectors in the sw race SFCs go from rear frame to front frame with extra supports going out from the main center connectors to the body sides. the other SFCs go from rear frame to body under driver and passenger side, with a small weld in bar going to the actual front frame.

The spohn sfcs are the same design that has been out since the month after the gen 3 came out. sure they work but they arent the best.

Oh by the way vsixtoy do you even know what sheer welding is? I challange you to do a quick search of the net to find a definition.

I am a welder by trade and I can tell you now that as long as the welds are done right, the design of the SFC is what gives it its strength not the weld. Every single weld that goes into a SFC is at least 4 times the strength of any peice of tube in a SFC, If anything is going to fail it will be the SFC not the weld so I dont think I would put much faith in someones marketing. Its the design of the SFC that will decide how well the car will deal with torsoinal twisting in corners. In all my design and welding in 10 years I belive the sw race set to be a better design hands down. Get some pictures of both welded on a car, I belive they are in the forums.

I will say Im sorry I did not give facts when I stated my first post as I was in a hurry and figured that if people looked at the sw race page they could see how much better of a design they are.

 

1)Bolt hole elongate with bolt-in SFC's, Welding is a must.

2)You, like many here, need to climb under you car and studdy the structure of the unibody frame and its major support areas. You have no clue that the front of Spohn's design ties right into the major lower firewall bracing of the unibody construction.

3) The so called afterthought link bar that welds inboard on Spohn's design is no afterthought at all. This my friend is a triangular support bar for lateral loading. It is crucial to the original design and was so part of it. This traingular brace connects inboard to the inner subframe-WHICH ties directly into the perpendicular lower firewall brace support that the outer SFC's are then welded to.

4)Sheer welds, WTF are you talking about. I am not talking about a type of welding.
I said sheer welded- Meaning it has a sheer wall structure. Do you have knowledge what sheering does to the integrity of a lateral surface? If something is merely attached at the ends it is not sheer paneled. It NEEDS to be welded at the very least in increments along the plane. to eliminate sheer movement. S&W 's design is not sheer welded

5) and lastly, put your money where you mouth is if you want to challange me in the handling department. I know these cars inside and out structurally. Matter of fact, I will boastfully say that I could get into YOUR car and make it handle with faster lap times than YOU could. How do I know this, from what you are saying about these cars subfames. You've got some things to learn still before you decide to attack me verbally here.

 

Spohn TIG welds and Lon MIG welds. Lon's welds looked rushed, were made uneven, and distorted the tubular piece. Both welds do the job, however spohn's are much better. Yes, outside appearances don't do real justice, but I made the most and described in my opinion what I saw and made of the welds, and I don't see you cutting up $100+ of parts just to see which has a better weld, so don't critisize when you have no room to.

 

Reading Vsixtoy's comments I'll agree with him too, if you do take a good look at where spohn's SFCs mount they provide strength were our chassis flexes the most. The S&Ws are really not much else then a set of alstons or macs with some cross bracing. Personally, I'd run a set of macs or alstons with some spohns, and I'm already 1/2 way there with the MAC sfcs. Pretty soon some spohns......

 

And As per what I said in my previus statment is that they can be welded OR Bolted.

Funny you should say they the Spohn's design Ties into the Lower firewall As the SW race set also ties in there two. Did you even look at the site? and I dont think you need to personally attack me about what I need to do as I have only owned 5 3rd gens and rebuilt two from writeoffs. I personally worked long and hard on all of them and I have had two striped down tonothing but unit-body and sub frames. Hell I even replaced the front sub frame on the first writeoff. I dont think you can tell me to "climb under you car and studdy the structure of the unibody frame and its major support areas" as I think Ive seen enough. And in my opinion tying into the front sub frame where it meets the firewall is probably just as strong as tying in at the outside.
http://www.swracecars.com/jpg/crossmember_package.gif

All I can say here is that yes you are correct. this part of the design I may have been wrong about

And no where in my post did I describe it as a "type" of weld.

And you know I looked at the pics of the SFC from spohn. hell I even relooked at all of the pics of SFCs I could find on the net and of other cars with the spohn SFC on them and all I see is a bent pipe with a plate welded all around on one end, and a slip in tube for length on the other which has to be welded when installed. not a hole hell of alot of extra bracing or welds placed in increments anywhere. you "sheer welded" SFC is BS.

http://www.spohn.net/productimages/ACF4162.JPG

I didnt "attack" you in any way, you were an *** in your post. All I did was give some reasons for my opinion that that the SW SFC is better. I didn't insult you in any way shape or form in my post as you seem to need to do in yours. Do you need to attack people personally when they have a differeing opinion than yours?

 

Oh and by the way I dont really care if you feel you can drive better than me because you feel you have some greater knowledge of the car than me, which I have not seen. What I do care about is how badly you act for an adult. you "my friend" dont know a damn thing about me or my driving.

 

I would agree with running both sets to cover all bases. But weight is a killer to quarter mile times.

 

I've got a bad sense about this thread, lol.

The spohn/mac combination though heavier seems a bit beefier. And for a convertible I'll take whatever I can get to stiffen it. Look at the S&W piece it's probably not likely with those side supports to run a spohn SFC, plus the spohn and macs would stiffen a lot more areas.

 

What is sheer? Like curtains?

Don't you mean shear.

 

Your first quote challanging me- Just a reminder for you. I state "Facts" above and you came back to slam me.

Spohn's design allows for the rails to be welded to the unibody along there length of tubing because they are designed to make contact directly to the unibody structure. This way you CAN sheer weld them in increments along the SFC's just as Spohn designed them to.

The S&W SFC's are not as long as the Spohn SFC's. Spohns design extended about 1 1/2 feet longer to the front firewall along the outer edge from where the useless S&W torsional bar bolts across to the outer rail lip of the unibody- It goes nowhere near a support area and is relying on the flimsy floorpan for helping to prevent torque twist. These S7W SFC's are only slightly better than the Alston designs for launching the car, and serve no purpose in bracing the unibody struture for cornering as well as launch- Spohn's does. See my example picture below

Blue is the major bracing structure in the unibody

red is Spohns design

Yellow is S&W's design

Green is well Spohns are "SHEAR (I got the spelling right this time )" welded to the unibody.

 

Now granted, both would be stonger if you have the clearance for the S&W design, but they hang low and ground clearance plays a major factor. Plus they add alot of unnecessary weight. I could not run them on my car without scraping. They are designed for a drag race car only. And you would have to run their S&W torque arm or otherwise cut off the cross menber brace on their design. Better to run Alstons with Spohns if you really wanted overkill. I personally know my car doesn't need it.

 

Here's what I'd do to the rear of my car if I didn't value my rear seat- I have a kid that needs to sit there once in a while.

The rear brace would be done from the top side with the rear seat removed- Then again I would just cage the car if it weren't used as a street family car once or twice a week to go to dinner or grandma's house.
The front tunnel brace I have (custom made)

The rear dotted line is the one I would add from one side to the other bending up over the driveshaft tunnel inside the cockpit. It would be weled to the tunnel area also as it bends over the top.

 

I don't care how experienced anyone on this board is. Saying Spohn's SFCs are "not that good" is comical. Suggesting he send them back is ludicrous.

Let's keep something in mind here. The VAST majority of members here drive their f-body every day on public streets. That means dealing with emissions, ground clearance, maneuverability, and a lot of body stress. Bolt-on vs welding arguments aside, the SW SFCs are just glorified Alstons, which are primarily known for causing ground clearance problems and interference with the exhaust. Like vsixtoy said, the torsional bars on either side lead to a flimsy mounting point on the outer edge of the car. Replacing the crossmember with that little bar seems unnecessary as well.

Spohn's design is welded along the entire length, not just the endpoints. On top of providing excellent support to the frame this way, it allows for an excellent mounting point for a crossbrace to the front subframe. Also, the "slip-in tube" is not there for length, and it does not get welded during installation. It is for clearance of the exhaust system. On top of all of this, you gain about 6 feet of useful jacking points without losing any ground clearance. None.

The SW SFCs might be best for drag racing if they had a bar along the outer rail under the doors. IROCZ28dan clearly stated he is looking for a better handling car, not a dragster. I think it's pretty clear which design should be "sent back."

 

I'm going to add the yellow lines on my car also.

 

Or like this without the red.

 

That would be ideal. It would entirely trangulate the frame plane. Just as long as you can afford the ground clearance, and clear the torque arm travel. Stock TQarm would probably clear, but Spohns aftermarket wouldn't. You may have to go to a shorter TQarm like GW or BMR, Or even S&W . I personally like to weight transfer of spohns under braking, but I also don't have a heavy V8 up front either.

 

The ground clearance shouldn't be that bad. If it is i will find a better way.

I am going to build a decoupled torque arm setup so the torque arm won't be a problem.

 

I'm interested as to why you decided it was necessary to add a front brace. A boxed tranny crossmember (ala spohn) and a wonderbar would essecially do the same thing wouldn't they? Just seems like more unnecessary weight to me that won't make that big of a difference.

 

I apologize. I in no way meant to sound like I was personally attacking you or your review. I was just trying to allude to the fact that welds can't really be judged by their outward appearances.

Sorry.

 

Something like this:

 

or

 

The party had just begun,
The guests included Wolfman, Dracula, and his son.

 

or

 

Nerd war. Fun with MS Paint. hehe

:lala:

 

lol

I'm down with overkill and all but that last one crossed the line.

 

Starting from the front of the car, I have

1)GW steering brace (aka wonderbar)just in front of the steering box
2)Custom speader bar just behind the steering box-V8's can't do this, no room.
3)Edelbrock 3-pt strut tower brace with solid bearing HMS strut mounts- zero deflection.
4)Custom tunnel brace, supports the rear A-arm region of the subframe from flexing inward towards eachother in hard corners
5) Spohn SFC's with slightly customised cross braces
6) Spohn tranny crossover/TQarm mount
7) minor bracing on the rear panhard rod brace- Not much I could do here until I lower my panhard rod mount on the axle side. Back burner project that will get done in time.

Of the 7 listed,#2, #3 & #4 made the most noticable improvement in cornering response- It steers like a jetfighter- but wouldn't matter unless you have solid strut mounts.

The two custom mounts I made above are lightweight removable aluminum braces with rodends to set preload on the subframe.
Pictures here- http://www.cardomain.com/id/v6rsr

#2 & 3 above is on page one, #4 is on page two.

Lets put it this way- about the jetfighter comment. You can't continue talking when I do a turn-in into a corner, you damn near have to grunt. And you have to remember that this car is minimum 200lbs lighter on the nose than the V8's.

 

Ever thought about making a STB to preload as well Dean?

 

Justin, I actually do have a idea on paper that I designed and may still make for myself. I was actually looking into mass producing the idea and selling the parts (even thought of looking into being a board sponsor- might still someday). The problem I have with most things I come up with is cost. I can engineer this stuff and have in built, but I really don't think anyone would spend then amount of cash it would cost for the really trick stuff.

The setup I have designed would cost me alone about $350 to make and it I'd have to sell it for at least $400 to bother with selling it and trying to make a profit. I'd be lucky to sell 5 of them here.

THe main setback money wise is it would involve the person wanting it to have to first buy some of Spohns Strut mounts, then be willing to drill and tap three holes into them. Then when that is fined, buy my idea and fit it onto them and utilize the adjustment range.
--------------------------------

I am actually looking to position myself into someday fabbing my own parts line (Not necessarily for 3rd gen.- More looking towards Vettes- There is more interest in big buck stuff). The biggest problem with consumers in general is most just want something that they can install themselves withour welding or machine work required. Everything I come up with involve one or both. I even have a design for a Watts linkage that I may even try many years down the road. I just am at a point in life that I have way too much going on with my business and home life projects (house mainly, thats where 90% of my money is going right now)

 

Dean,

when you start your buisness, your going to hire me right.

BTW, i have a watts link designed up also, we should compare notes sometime.

 

John, how about you hire me. I have had my own business for over 18 years and would love to find out how nice it would be to just work for someone else and wash my hand & go home at night with no calls to make- I'm 37 and looking to retire from the tile business in a max of 9 years, my house will be full paid before then also. Or keep working part time (1-2 weeks a month) and then play, play, play.

I might even just get a part time job as a squab on a dive boat later in life and work three day trips to the Channel Islands and dive for free. You take 4 hour shifts working DM then the alternate takes over and your time to dive. Scuba diving is my real passion, not cars. I've been diving for years and still plan to until I'm about 70 if the body will take it, it keep you in shape bigtime in the rough surging water here.

The "dreaming of someday" fun is over this morning- I'm awake and off to work.