1983Fbody

Just curious. Anyone change them for track days or road trips, etc?
thanks
-Ben

V6#20

I run them on full rebound both front and rear always. I have very stiff front coils though and need the high rebound settings to control their recoil.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

If you’ve got the high pressure rears you’ll notice that the back sits higher on hot days, but otherwise they shouldn’t significantly change dampening with normal temp fluctuations.

FWIW, I normally tinker around with the fronts, depending on my mood… I think that they’re full soft right now, at times I’ll have them full tight, rarely in the middle. The rears are happier full soft on most cars unless you do a lot of high speed stuff like road racing, we’re talking taking turns at 100+mph, for street use and autox you’ll probably be happiest with them full soft or even with a softer set, like some people run the T-bird ones in the rear because they’re softer. I have my rears full soft or one notch in all the time. When I autox I put the fronts full tight.

Kat

iTrader: (4)

Well I have the red's full stiff in the front and in the middle on the rear. Mostly cause I do errr 140 miles or so a day of 80mph driving.

nape

iTrader: (1)

What rate springs are you running, front and rear? I'm sure it's been discussed, but I don't have time to dig right now. Thanks.

V6#20

I have aprox 800+ lb front coils on a very lightweight nosed V6 car so my recoil frequency is very fast compared to most. 800 is stiff for a V8 car, never the less a V6.

Rears are progressive and started life at about 145 I think it was on the lighter progessive coils and max to a 225 @ inch compression. I have trimmed down some of the lighter weight progressive side making them in essence colser to a lineal spring which probably starts more at 175 + now and quickly progresses to about 235- 250 range I predict due to the aid also of Koni shaft style bumpstops inserted. I did slit them and electrical taped them together under the Koni rear dust sheild so that decreases the rate increase amount on compression of any bumpstop contact (they are not as affective when slit). Its setup where it barely contacts them in worst case at most about 3/8" under the hardest contact. Mostly they never touch unless I hit something hard while set into a corner to get it to compress that far. They are set to insure the car does not squat too much. I have a very expensive CF driveshaft in this car and do not ever what too much travel whereas to have it make any contact with the chassis grounding out for any reason. The Koni bumps are just cheap insurance that my rear rate goes up enough if really strained- but without having a blunt impact hit like the factory bumps do. Note: My factory bumpstops are still in place but I dramatically trimmed and reshaped them to the maximum point the driveshaft can travel leaving a blunt stop point about 3/4" shy of the driveshaft contacting anything on the chassis.

There were some Video's of me drunning this car recently at an AutoX event on the So Cal boards. If you can find that under "Reddrocket" (I was "RTFC" or Dean) you'll see that this car has absolutely no nose lift or dive into and out of corners

nape

iTrader: (1)

Thanks, I've got 1000lb/in linear springs up front and 225lb/in linear rear with a gutted TPI car [no headlight assemblies, fab. bumper, etc] so we probably weigh the same on the nose.

Thanks for the info.

V6#20

I would say the same freqency ratio, but not the same nose weight.
Your front end to begin with has about 400lbs more over the front wheels then my car does.
Formulas are heavier to begin with to the same option Camaro (V8 to V8). Then I have a lighter motor AND its centered further back beauase it is much smaller.


This is not a flame, it is just a factual post. Have you ever seen a 60* V6 motor on a stand next to a V8 motor? They are tiny and short. block lengthwise I have 3 banks (V6 of course) of 3.5" bore cylinders, you have 4 banks of 4.0" bore cylinders. My block is much narrower at 60* vs yours at 90*. They mount from the same transmission surface coming forward into the engine bay.

Even with a V6 fully loaded you have to stirp off alot of frontend weight to try and make them equal because the heavier V8 also sits over the front wheels more

Thats why no one has yet been able to touch me in this car braking & cornering. I have built something rare to see, A low powered but very lightweight V6 car with a radical suspension.

nape

iTrader: (1)

Interesting. Any chance you know your corner weights? I'd like to see where you stand.

Hopefully I'll have mine to compare in a couple weeks.

I wouldn't compare option weighs at all. My car is really gutted and it's only getting lighter right now. Pulled the 700R4 for a WC T5 the other day, putting the trans in this week if everything goes right.

Here's some pics that show some of the gutting: http://www.extremelysensual.com/pics/formula/

V6#20

Here's where it gets tricky with agility.
The ideal position of you cars CG really is at its most optimum directly centered between the front and rear wheels.

However, lightness overall make the car faster and more agility also in means of less slip angles of the tires making them last longer. So weight taken off anywhere is good but weight that can't be taken off BUT reditributed is better.

You car may be as light or even lighter, but fact has it that the engine is the bulk weight of the front portion of the car. now when you lighten the trans (ie-auto to manual) the trans is closest to CG but by lightening it moves the CG forward slightly more towards the front wheels. hence why moving certain critical items like the battery to the rear of the Cg to balance the car more towards 50/50 with the CG being centered on the wheels.

Now the higher the speeds you are traveling, the less important polar weight comes into play having to make quick transitions and the more overall weight loss comes into play for overall grip.

You have a car that you have setup specifically for higher speed roadracing so overall lightness is the key factor. Now its just working around various items to help out the front end and move the CG back will only perfect the cars endurance, stability AND agility.

Also Nape, I don't know what rules you are running under but if you can I would strongly suggest getting rid if those factory rubber insert strut mounts and then weld a "removable" bar across there (aka STB). The nose will tighen up and push more going into corners yet more predictable, but will be much more stable and predictable through the corners with the towers locked up and steady. The response you gain from the solid mounts will counteract any push you get from the bar addition.

V6#20

Here's where figures get complicated.

We have a wheelbase of 100"

My car (V6 auto) I would estimate the CG to be about 45" behind the front wheels.
The average V8 manual I would estimate to be about 35" behind the front wheels
Yours I would guess to be more about 40" behind with the type of modifications and reductions you have made.

Now take just your battery for instance in comparison to mine.

Yours 13lbs, 65" from Cg = 54,925lb in sq'd of polar force movement.

Mine is much higher in the stock position because CG is further back and my battery is much heavier @ 32lbs. Its 70" away from CG and has a yeid of 156,800 lb ins sq'd force.

TYhats sound much favorable in you senerio, but ultimately with everything else added up your rear tires are further from the CG whicgh means they can not transistion to and back a easily without residual traction loss due to higher polar weight on them as opposed to the front tires. The front tires will not corner as well because more overall weight is riding on them. Hence why the CG is best centered between the wheels.

Now move that battery back to the tail end of the car and recompute. The weight of the battery only moves the CG rear maybe 1/8th of an inch but your polar weight of it alone has increased to 83,200 lbs in sq'd. acting on agility.

Its like spinning around one way and quickly trying to reverse direction with 1) you arms by your side as opposed to 2) your arms extended out horizonally. 1 is more agilty than 2 and can sotp its turn force and /or reverse it much more quickly than 2.

This is why my V6 starting out with the mass weight more centered between the wheels makes it very agile and allows more of a center equal polar distribution on both front and rear wheels.

But regardless of polar weight, your car the same weight as mine will brake just the same YET, it will stomp my *** down the straight. There are pros and cons everywhere.

If we were running the same track, I may be able to darn near match your trackk times running solo, but head to head I could not pass you on a corner because you can out accelerate me back down the striaght. Straight sections outweight the cornering benefits and high HP AND Braking abilty will win over high cornering and braking any day. Its much easiler to pass on a straight- I have no power and fall back on every straight to be able to be in position to outbrake and carry faster corner speeds to get around you. So even though the V6 will handle extremely well, I still need to find power and I am working on that while retaining the light weight- well see what the future brings- but cross your fingers for me, I have $$$ to spend in order to get it there and its still a crap shoot after spending the $$$. Noone hads ever done what I am doing to a thrid gen Camaro- and most wonder why.You realise how light I could make this car if I stripped it- I bet I could get it down to about 2600lbs with perfect CG and bias.

I built this car for my wife as her full time daily driver, it will never be stripped down and I have never bothered checking corner weights on it. I really don't care to because I am not putting any provisoins (weightjackers or coilovers) into it to alter them.

V6#20

I just want to lastly add that once you get to this level of altering the cars CG and polar weights, The hours upon days upon years of calculating and resetting only gets you the faction of an inch more advantage when you weight it against the time and money it takes to do so....

However, its the guys that do this that are the guys that win.

Knocking down a lap time from 70-65 may cost $1000,
from 65-62 my cost $10,000
and another second off may cost $100,000 from there.

nape

iTrader: (1)

The mounts have already been done, but I haven't had time to get to a circle track shop to grab some shock mounts and small rod ends to fab the STB.

Right now, I'm building to American Iron specs as those are the parts I've already bought, but I keep throwing around the idea of Camaro-Mustang Challenge to keep the cost down. I'd have to move back to factory bumpers, stock hood, and remove the rear weight jacks, but it's definitely do-able.

The Midwest region is fairly new and you can still be competitive in AI on a 16x8 wheel with a 255/50/16 tire, unlike the West Coast where it looks like you have to build to the limit of the rules (17x9.5 wheel, 275/40/17) to be successful.

There is a Mustang running around the Midwest region that has a V6 in it that I believe is trying to accomplish the same thing you are. Someone told me it was a Chevy V6, but I've never checked myself. Here's the only pic I know of: http://www.midcoastperformance.com/i...Iron%20Mustang

I wouldn't gut your car and take it racing, it's too pretty

V6#20

I'll tell you whats probably going to end up happening to our Camaro, My 13 year old daughter is probably going to get it in few years. Thats why I am in no hurry to finish the motor I started to build.

I'll explain what happened, and where I am at with this car.

We've owned it for about 13years, Been the wife daily driver since my daugther was born. When she was little, I could not build it very stiff so I just ran Tokico blues and a few mild things done- but stayed mostly stock. Tokico's are a very low compression but high rebound strut, so running these front sporings was fine after trying 3 sets to get it there. (this was 12 years ago)
3 years ago- the car was goiing to sh*t- bushings were gone, shocks and struts were going bad, motor went. It was buy a new car, or drop a motor into it and keep it. Wife was attached to this car BECAUSE it was her uncles new and he passed away 3 years after buying it-plus she loves the paint job on it- its unique.
I start putting a little money into it to get it in decent shape suspension wise and the car responded to the changes dramatically- It became a little addiction- the V6 steers so quickly- now remember, I race Vettes for many years (mines a monster and a garage queen- hardly ever driven) so this little V6 was so fun zipping around town steering effortlessly and unbelievable grip (I driven & ridden in many V8 3rd gens, nothing felt this nimble) I kept going with it thinking "heck, I'll just build it for radical street use and then when I am about ready for the motor, I'll by the wife a new car and use this as a weekend toy" (Planned to strip the A/C etc when that day came and even put a 6speed Richmond into it, I have all the parts minus the 6sp sitting in my garage. + the 3.4motor)

What happened 1 year ago? I came across one of those deals of a lifetime and could not pass up- A "67 Mini Cooper S that had been sitting burried under boxes and crap in my nextdoor neighbors garage for 18+years and they decided to move. It was her ex husbands, she called him, he's a drunk and owed her money. Car was not running but everything for the most part was there (Ring broke and seiezed the motor on #1cyl. he took it apart, got a DUI, lost his license, she divorved him, it sat there 18years, she moved, she SOLD IT TO ME FOR $1000- Its worth over $20,000

Camaro project stopped. Figured I keep it as is and let the daughter "borrow" it (not have it) when she learns to drive. So probably best to keep it built brakes and suspension with the very mild 2.8 in it.

Mini is on hold- I am back fulltime on the major house projects- I do everything cash. I'm 38, house will be paid for in 8 more years, Then I race the Mini having fun with it till I can no longer handle the G's and the maintinace. Its about as cheap a racecar you can possibly own and would eat the crap out of the Camaro when I build it. Its a dream that fell into my lap.

Wait till the day I get going on this car and build it- You think my Camaro is something? huh, that was built to an 8 on a scale of 1-10 (1 being streetable soft, 10 being full race) (and the Camaro motor was never going to be more than about a "6"(pun intended). The mini will be built to 10's in all aspects with only 1 seat in it- yet barely street legal for an occational weekend cruise to a car show, etc. It is smog exempt here in So Cal so I can get away with virtually anything except noise and tire restrictionsThat means street tires for street use, race tires for race use, and a muffler.)

And thats what has stopped me with the Camaro project. However I hate not finishing a project so I have been pondering trying to build a smoglegal supercharger unit and build the 3.4 with a built proof bottomend yet low compression and low cammed. If the daughter dsrives it, then I am trying to work where I can flip the belt off the SC and change the prom.

Right now I am trying to learn about Superchargers and promchips and if its really worth the money to build something from scratch for a car I am no longer focused on. It will definately have to ALWAYS remain a SMOG LEGAL street car. I have two garage queens now with the Vette AND the Mini, don't need a thrid with the Camaro.

Tough problems to have right?

nape

iTrader: (1)

Absolutely, I wish I had more problems like that.

If you tell me you've got a tow vehicle already too, I'll really have to turn green with envy. Haha.

V6#20

I have two, A '77 El Camino (pictured in the rear) and my '89 Chev 1/2ton worktruck that looks like crap but has nothing stock underneath, I MEAN NOTHING STOCK. You can barely see the tailgate. This truck even has a Currie 9" with a Detroit locker and I have welded the entire frame and have an on-the-fly shock and airbag assist controls so it will carry a 4000+# payload in the bed. It also has a BeCool aluminum radiator and a fukl built Darrel Young 700r4 with everything internal built (the owner of DY's was a great friend of mine) I am self employed (tile & marble sales and installs) and this truck is MY daily driver. The Camaro is the wifes.

ElCamino, Camaro, and tailgate of Truck

V6#20

Here's my baby, don't let the looks fool ya, I don't paint it because I beat the living crap out of it daily and throw torn out shower debris, and floors and, old countertop tile, etc into it weekly- its a work truck but its one heil of a sleeper. This thing is more modified underneath than the Camaro. I have owned this truck for 17 years. Again, its my daily driver so I built it to haul big loads but also haul butt- it gets 8-9mpg

It has both Koni reds, and Rancho 9000adjustables on it to assist heavier loads. The Ranchos are controled from the drivers seat as well as the LARGE custom Firestone airride setup I welded ontop of the 9" rearend tubes. $ wheel sport truck discs, tubular control arms, massive swarbars with heimlinks, solid cab mounts... it goes on and on.

V6#20

And since on on a picture craze... Here's a shot of the Camaro engine bay right after I put the BeCool into it (The STB is off in the pic) But you can see how tiny and far back the motor sits in the engine bay. Thats why this car handles, there is no weight over the front tires.

V6#20

And then there's the Vette and the Mini. Ahh my stable sportscars, I have a V8, a V6 and it will be someday a V-tec4 in the mini @ 200hp in a 1200lb car.

I only havee a 2car garage so I will only have 3 cars at my hose at a given time. Generally I keep the Vette at the family shop and the ElCamino stays at my in-laws and they use it carefully for various errands- its my backup worktruck. They have a full RV parking driveway up around the side of there house. I have no room and need to someday buy a house with a bigger garage.
Houses are very expensive in So Cal.

V6#20

The last car I want and need is a larger family car and I have been trying to wheel and deal on an 05 Chysler 300SRT but they were not budging on the 12,000 over sticker. Every dealer around here is now sold out on SRT's and the 06's are overpriced price right now also. I am going to try and wait to see if prices drop after the fad dies down (It was car of the year in motortrend) and maybe the gas crunch will scare off many buyers and cause the priceto at least come down to sticker.

I rented one already several time to see how we like it (We meaning mostly the wife). This was only the 300 V6 though. They do not rent the Hemi V8's and of course not the SRT Hemi's.
Nice car, I want one.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

huh, I just poked a look at some of the pictures on your web site... what tie rod adjuster sleaves are those?

nape

iTrader: (1)

They're from Coleman Racing: http://www.colemanracing.com/

Can't remember what size I bought though but I bought the steel ones instead of aluminum (didn't want to worry about them). I'd have to find the invoice. I remember they were less then half of what Spohn charges though

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

I'd really appreciate it if you did check... I've been planning on doing exactly that (somehow the split sleave adjusters always rust together making them useless eventually) but haven't been able to find what thread the tie rods use

KagA152

iTrader: (5)

i got mine from coleman a couple years ago, heres the numbers (credit to somebody on here, its where i found em)

x2 #941-R Right Jam Nut $0.60
x2 #941-L Left Jam Nut $0.85 (i guess left is more rare!)
x2 #RP-129-4 Sleeve $8.65

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

thanks...

did you take that pic down? I was just looking for it and now I can't find it.

nape

iTrader: (1)

They came back up, evidently my hosting was down for a while.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

actually, the pic with the tie rod sleeves still isn't there anywhere...