maybe i'm wrong about this, but dont the 3rd gens tend to handle better than the 4th gen's, stock for stock? like putting a b4c against an ss, or a 3rd gen ws-6 against a 4th gen?

 

I have both,

IMHO - the thirdgen is better at low to mid speeds as far as handling. no comparison.

however for the high speed stuff (over 100) I prefer my fourth-gen - no comparison.


but really my fourth-gen has all the suspension goodies for the street. so it is not really a fair comparison.

Once I finish my thirdgen's suspension I'll let you know. Twisty mountain roads - the iroc is alot of fun ( Baer brakes help alot)

on the freeway or more open stretches - the 4th-gen rules (koni's and a LS1 help)

bone stock for bone stock- the Iroc is better

The reason I modded my 4th-gen so much is because I thought it's handling sucked from the factory even with the bilstien suspension option, once I added some peformance suspension components (everything but a torque arm - literally) the handling is awesome for what it is - still not a S2000 - or a porshe but it will beat those in some areas

 

bump

more opinions please

 

I have both aswell.

My new daily driver, an '88 IROC Z's only suspension mods is a lowered ride height.

My '93 Formula has just about every suspension piece from both Spohn and BMR other than the springs. They remain stock. (Weight tranfer is a lot better with them)

Don't know how much difference lowering springs make as my IROC already had them when I bought it but my '88 DEFINETELY takes corners a lot faster than my '93. It just feels a lot more stable through the bends.

Maybe the fact I run MT/ET streets on my '93 has something to do with it's handeling not being so good J/K.

Even when I used to run radials, it didn't handle as good as my 3rd gen.

3rd gen's have always been the best handeling Fbody. Atleast, that's what I've always been told.

 

sorry,

but a 93' formula is not the same as a 2K SS. put some good 275/40/17's on the formula and some good shocks and you would notice a world of difference.

Thirdgen's are not as good at high speeds. If fourthgens suck so bad how come in SCCA racing they tend to dominate (ex. Sam Stano jr, or is it Steve Euigina ( 97' LT4 SS)) these guys are champions in fourthgens. and I'm not saying that thirdgens aren't competitive. just that a full tilt fourthgen vs, a fully modded thirdgen would be a good comparison - fourthgen's with 16x8 radials are not going to outhandle a thirdgen.


$.02

 

The only difference between a Formula and an SS (besides the obvious shape and brand differences) is the air intake springs and shocks.

The SS as with the T/A were the "sportier" versions of the Camaro/Firebird. The Z28 and (especially) the Formula had softer suspensions which were much better at weight transfer which helped aid in straight line acceleration.

I ran 295's on 17's back, 275's on the front before I switched to 12.5 MT/ET 16's out back and 245/45's in front. The car still didn't handle as well as my IROC-Z and as I said, I have just about every spohn/BMR suspension piece on the Formula.



According to whom?

When has anybody said fourth gen's "suck so bad"? Certainly not me.

I'm just commenting on my personal experience since I too own both car's !! I've also driven a friends 2000 SS and I stand by my claim that it doesn't handle as good as an IROC. Even the owner of the 2000 admits the same whenever he drives my car.

No I'm not a professional driver and I've never pushed both car's to their extreme limits on a road coarse before.

My observations are strickly based on every-day driving environments 99.9% of Fbody owners drive there cars in every day

I love both cars

 

my car(87 iroc-z28) isn't the best for high speeds, i overheated the back brakes when i went 105 once, smoke was pouring from them

 

That generally has more to say about the driver that the car. Sam has driven and won with a 3rd gen as well as his current 4th gen. Sam, at least, is running in a class that is very limiting on engine mods but is open enough in suspension mods to correct for the 4th gens deficiencies.

 

I know the differences between an SS and a 93' formula.

When setting up the suspension on my SS I did alot of research as to what the best combo's are. Balanced sway bars, non poly tubular, not boxed lca's, shocks, tires etc.. I have mostly BMR stuff as well, just some of the stuff you have looks like you focused more on drag racing than the street. What kind of shocks do you run ? all that stuff with stock decarbon's or lowering springs would be a mismatch, and would not help the high speed stability as much as a good shock.


Both of my cars have subs, and the SS feels way more structurally solid than the Iroc, to me that translates into more cofidence at high speed. at 120 the Iroc feels out of it's element especially if you have high speed turns ahead. the SS feels totally in cotrol at higher speeds than that ( It didn't feel good stock, so I would agree a stock SS, even with the bilstien susp. feels inadequate)

well once I mod my Iroc I'll let you know

 

Of coarse it would, it's still pratically a new car as apposed to the IROC which at the very least is a 16 year old car. Obviously a car that old won't feel as "structually solid" as a brand new one.

Simple solution would be a set of Spohn subframe connectors. I've heard nothing but good things from those who have them. I plan on purchasing a set in the upcoming month's.

A friend of mine recently purchased an '89 Formula 305, It has (what appears to be) Kenny Brown sub frame connectors. I think they K.B.'s 'cause of the "double diamond" shape.

The chasis feels solid as a rock. No squeeks. No rattles. It's just about the most "solid" feeling car I've ever driven in my entire life. (I'm not kidding either )

Do you have sub frame connectors on your IROC? If not, maybe that's the reason it doesn't feel as solid as the SS.

 

I agree with LT1FUN; naturally the IROC doesn't feel as structurally sound, lol. It's old, but SFCs and a STB do go a long way in curing that.

And just for the record Kenny Brown does NOT make double diamond SFCs for thirdgens. They are just rails on the sides with braces going towards the tranny tunnel.

 

You're probably right, I'm not very familiar with Kenny Brown's stuff, only BMR and Spohn.

It's also kinda hard to see exactly what's underneith a 3rd gen that's been lowered just by sticking your head on the floor and looking underneith

The subframes are DEFINETELY "double diamond design that's why I thought they were kenny Brown's cause as far as I know it's the only company that makes the double diamond SFC's.
Maybe it's a custom job

 

LT1FUN,

I have the Spohn tubular subframes on my Iroc, I like them - they made a considerable difference. However they do not feel as solid as my SS with BMR boxed subframes.

The spohn's would really be awesome if they had some type of mechanism for tying the frame together for the side to side movements, fore and aft the thing lifts the front wheel when I jack up the back or vise versa.

Yeah I know it's hard to expect alot of rigidity out of an 17 yo unibody that wasn't know for it's integrity in the first place.

 

I've owned both as well and the 3rd gens out handle the 4th gens in low speed and high speed driving.

Stock suspension on both gens, same wheels/tires on both as well.

 

Stock for stock, 3rd gen wins. Both in race prep, I think it goes to the 4th gen. The reason is that 3rd gens are lighter than 4th stock. The weight difference if very noticeable especially at low speeds.
If you look at and 3rd and 4th gen suspension they are ALMOST identical. Wheel base is very similar but the 4th gen is a little wider. The rear-ends are exactly the same, suspension wise. The fronts on a 4th have an advantage though, they gain more camber as the suspension compresses. So if a 3rd gen and 4th gen were in race prep, with both being equal weight and having the same tires, the 4th gen would handle better. This is one of the reasons Nick Steel and Jason Swindle (UBE) switched to a 4th gen when they wanted to move up classes.
3rd gens are very areodynamic though, I wonder how they compare to a 4th gen. I've heard of a couple 3rd gens doing very well at the salt flats, haven't heard about any 4th gens. Anybody got wind tunnel specs? Otherwise I'll have to find some.

Ben

 

EDE is a piece of sh*t
Ban me asswipe if you don't like my helpful post.
You are only antogonising me to cause trouble

I plan to have alot of fun around here durring the holidays

Merry fu*ken X-mas

 

Well I apprecaite the kind words, but do you have any facts or technical explanation of how my info is incorrect or did you just want to state your opinion of UBE?

 

I pretty sure the 3rdgens have a lower COD than the 4thgens. That's probably why they are doing better at the flats.

 

Here's what I've got in my garage: A UBE torque arm. I'm designing bracketry that will enable me to bolt it into a third-gen. Jason Swindle's stuff is of great quality and I hope more F-body owners buy his stuff. I'd hate to see this resource fade away from lack of interest.

I've been to autocrosses and seen negligble differences in the handling of a stock fourth-gen versus a thirdgen. I think it's a wash for the most part. Tight courses may favor the thirdgen due to a lower cowl and better off-idle torque, but if you open the course, the fourth-gen seems to have better performance due to LS1 engine and better brakes. When I competed at NFME this last May there was an ESP 1996 Camaro from New York that was phenomenal to watch.

Most of this third-gen / fourth-gen handling seems to be more "school spirit" than factual. Even the stuff I wrote above is opinion only.

I've submitted a proposal to the NFME mailing list members that we do a " weigh off" this next may in which we weigh each and every third and fourth-gen car to answer once and for all "Who is heavier?". I contend that the difference in weight is negligble. Stock Third-gen V8 powered F cars weigh in from 3400 to 3650 pounds with full gas tanks. I haven't seen anybody submit a real, calibrated scale slip that says anything different. Mine's currently 3460 pounds with fuel, roll bar, and 17 x 9.5 wheels.

Even when doing massive weight reductions, it is hard to take a third-gen below three thousand pounds.

Guess what? Fourth-gen cars are (in my opinion) in the same weight category: 3400 to 3650 pounds. Thus I do not believe that handling differences can be attributed to additional weight on a fourth-gen. I guess we'll see come May when I tabulate everyone's scale ratings at Indy.

As for the fourth-gen being wider. It isnt any wider at the tire footprint. The fourth-gen has the same wheelbase and track as the third-gen. It just seems wider due to the wider sheet metal up top. THerefore the wideness is probably purely in driver perception only. I wouldnt discount it though, because if you perceive your car as wider than it really is, it *could* affect how you drive the car. Thus, the third-gen might be intuitively easier to drive.
----------------------
As for Mr. SixtyV6, your supposed valuable technical contribution was purely just a brag. You are now being a troublemaker. Please stop now and rejoin the community.

 

Inside is pretty much the same width since the dash and door panels fit fine in a 3rd gen, as well as the seat and centerconsole spacing.

 

Just a question to see if roll cages make a difference to help thirdgens compare to fourthgens. I'm also curious to see if its better than the LCAs, subframe connectors at reducing flex.

Thoughts?

Rick

 

ws6transam

Interesting project you have there. I talked to Jason about the possibility of modifications to make the DCTA fit into a thirdgen. He did not think it would be modifiable to fit. When you get those done, PLEASE update us on exactly what you did.

 

Quote:
Jason Swindle's stuff is of great quality and I hope more F-body owners buy his stuff. I'd hate to see this resource fade away from lack of interest.

I agree.

Quote:
.... the fourth-gen seems to have better performance due to LS1 engine and better brakes.

I did not account for braking in the "which handles better" category. I guess I figured evryone knew 3rdgen brakes suck.

Quote:
Most of this third-gen / fourth-gen handling seems to be more "school spirit" than factual. Even the stuff I wrote above is opinion only.

Am I incorrect in saying that the front suspension of a 4th gen gains more camber (during compression) than a 3rd gen.

QUOTE:
I've submitted a proposal to the NFME mailing list members that we do a " weigh off" this next may in which we weigh each and every third and fourth-gen car to answer once and for all "Who is heavier?".
Guess what? Fourth-gen cars are (in my opinion) in the same weight category.

I'd be more interested in how much they weigh when they came off the showroom floor. Most of the stuff that makes a 4th gen weigh heavier is removed for racing anyway (A/C, interior, etc).
Also 4th gen owners tend to spend more then 3rd genners IMO, so you'll find more carbon fiber and fibergalss on 4th gens.

Quote
As for the fourth-gen being wider. It isnt any wider at the tire footprint. The fourth-gen has the same wheelbase and track as the third-gen. It just seems wider due to the wider sheet metal up top.

The rear axle of a 4th gen is 2 inches wider. They might take the 2 inches out of the wheel backspacing, I don't know. But the axle itself in wider. I'll have to look up the back spacing as well as the curb weight.
I thought 3rd gens had a better COD than 4th gens, where did you here that soulbounder? I want to be sure...

 

its because of their backspacing change.

thats why 4thgen rear + 4thgen rims on the back = perfect fit.

 

I have both a 2000 T/A and a 85 Iroc-Z
My Iroc has brand new o.e. suspension including the wonderbar.
My T/A is stock with nothing done to it except 17's.

My Iroc is a better handler overall. The Iroc feels better to me in tight turns and so on. High speed my T/A is a little better but my turns and such feel better in my roc than my T/A. I put 17's on my Iroc and it didn'ty change much from the 245/50R16's to the 275/40's. Slightly better at most.
I have also driven my best friends 02 WS6 and my Ex girlfriend 02 35th Anniversary SS and the Iroc stock for stock just felt better. I'm sure my 4th Gen would win in a lap contest but the "feeling" is the roc is a better handler. Who know's I'm one of the only people that replaced my old rotting 20+year old suspension with stock pieces because it just worked! Just wish my Roc was as fast as my T/A though

 

Get rid of the DeCarbon shocks on the 4th gens, and the cars feel A LOT better. My old '01 Z28 was downright scary even in just a straight line (bought it with about 95K and original shocks). With Konis, it was a night and day difference.

Pat

 

I have had three third gens over the last 19 year and also have driven a lot of fourth gen cars - so I want to throw in my 2 (or 4) cents...

If you were to compare the top 3rd gen (a GTA or IROC) to a 4th gen WS6 car, you would figure out that the cars all handle about the same stock (lateral g's and slalom). However, throw the same 17" wheel on the third gens and you starting beating down on the WS6 - tires can do that. Not to mention the lower center of gravity, ability to pull a lot a weight out strategically, and superior factory aerodynamics (better, not perfect) give the third gen a nod.

The one thing I don't get about 4th gens is the weight. Why are these cars several hundred pounds heavier even with an LS1 that has a 150lb weight advantage? Not much you can do to pull out much weight either. I can pull 400lbs out of a thirdgen without butchering it in about an afternoon.

Power doesn't matter - you can stick any hp motor in either generation. I have 400hp using old school chevy motor, you can get 450hp out of an LS1 easily...

 

There was a thread at SCCAforums.com where a friend of mine speculated that the 4th gens really started going up in weight when OBDII ('96 on up) came around. More wiring for emissions, not to mention added safety stuff, ABS and airbags.

My '82 Camaro, built to SCCA rules for Street Prepared, weighs 3135. My old '90 Firebird, which was built close to the same rules, weighed 3330. I don't know how I could have pulled out 200 lbs from the Firebird and still been legal for the class (full interior, no lightening of body panels, etc). They are both thirdgens, but an eight year difference kind of shows how the hidden weight creeps up.

Pat

 

4th gen suspension isn't very much different, in fact the rear suspension is the same from 82-02. The 4th gen front suspension is still a macpherson strut setup, and works pretty much the same.

With that said though, suspension isn't the only thing that will effect handling, and 4th gens (especially 98+) have some advantages. Rack and pinion steering, better brakes, and traction control should help get around a track faster. Also, the LS1 is all aluminum, which should shave some weight off the nose.

 

I figured there was a reason, besides the added weight of additional luxury items and sound deadening.

Easy 200lbs - swap out iron chevy motor for a LS1, tubular crossmember, and Baer brakes. Still being legal to class race - totally different story.

 

Having owned a 86 iroc and a 98 TA i would say my TA did alot better.