air bag susp.
Thread Starter
Senior Member
iTrader: (14)
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 823
Likes: 1
From: erlangen, Germany
Car: 1991 Z28 1LE
Engine: LS1
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 3.42
air bag susp.
Has anyone put an airbag suspension on there 3rd Gen? I've been looking around and the prices aren't nearly as bad as I thought, around 1600-2000 for a four wheel set-up fully adjustable, the price varies on analog or digital gauges. It sounds good just curious if anyone has gone this way and what they thought compared to a traditional set-up.
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 830
Likes: 0
From: Kansas
Car: 85 camaro sport coupe
Engine: 2.8 MFI
Transmission: v6 700R4 wish it was a 5spd Stick
Axle/Gears: Stock non posi 3.42s
an airbag setup is good for a soft ride with ease of adjustability but it is not good for handling, something about they dont have a linear rebound rate because the more you compress the air in them the more harder they will try to return to normal.
Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 401
Likes: 0
From: Bondurant, IA
If someone ONLY tested replacing the springs with airbags and performance springs, the airbags would outperform them, and also have a MUCH smoother ride, which would offset any performance difference (to me), if there is one.
When I egt back to school i will try and find the article.
Last edited by fenton06; Nov 25, 2006 at 02:20 PM.
Supreme Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,663
Likes: 9
From: Buckhannon, WV
Car: 84' Monte
Engine: 350
Transmission: 700-r4
Axle/Gears: ferd 9" posi 3.50 gears
If chevy high performance said so then it much be true.
Take EVERYTHING you read in magazines with a gian grain of salt. It's hard to say something bad about a product if the vender pays the bills.
The problem with air bags is that they extremely progressive, the spring rate changes drastically with air pressure, and most importantly they add weight. All those air lines, valves, compressors and tanks add up to a decent amount of weight and take up room.
Another thing that ticks me off about air bag companies is that none of them will tell you what the spring rate is of their air bags. There is just no way to compare them on paper to conventional springs. In practice every single race car on the planet runs coil springs, if they were better people would find a way to use them.
Take EVERYTHING you read in magazines with a gian grain of salt. It's hard to say something bad about a product if the vender pays the bills.
The problem with air bags is that they extremely progressive, the spring rate changes drastically with air pressure, and most importantly they add weight. All those air lines, valves, compressors and tanks add up to a decent amount of weight and take up room.
Another thing that ticks me off about air bag companies is that none of them will tell you what the spring rate is of their air bags. There is just no way to compare them on paper to conventional springs. In practice every single race car on the planet runs coil springs, if they were better people would find a way to use them.
Senior Member
iTrader: (2)
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 600
Likes: 1
From: Old Bridge, NJ
Car: 1992 Camaro RS
Engine: 383 SuperRam
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 3:23 Posi
I seen on horsepower TV were they had a shoot out with Air ride technologys . They had a test of stock cars on the track and then put a complete air bag set up. All cars road and handled a lot better with the air set up. The air bags were combined with the shock sort of like a coil over system and the shocks were adjustble. It was pretty amazing how it was like almost night and day.
Supreme Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,857
Likes: 0
From: Maui, Hawaii
Car: 1984 Trans Am
Engine: broken 385sbc
Transmission: G-Force rebuilt T-5
Axle/Gears: Currie 9" Ford 4.30:1
Supreme Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,663
Likes: 9
From: Buckhannon, WV
Car: 84' Monte
Engine: 350
Transmission: 700-r4
Axle/Gears: ferd 9" posi 3.50 gears
That test was a load of bull, they replaced control arms and bushings through out the car when they swaped on the air ride. On top of that they were comparing them to stock suspended cars, not a properly setup spring and shock combo.
I ask this simple question, what is it about an air spring that makes it better for performance.......and I never get a complete answer. I usually hear, well it's progressive, it's tunable. Yeah so.....why is progressive better, and how much is it tunable? The manufacturers aren't ready to give out that info, if they facts would help them sell the product you would think they would be posting them all over the place..........but they're not.
I ask this simple question, what is it about an air spring that makes it better for performance.......and I never get a complete answer. I usually hear, well it's progressive, it's tunable. Yeah so.....why is progressive better, and how much is it tunable? The manufacturers aren't ready to give out that info, if they facts would help them sell the product you would think they would be posting them all over the place..........but they're not.
Trending Topics
Junior Member
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
From: Cypress, Tx
They don't need to, they are already selling them all over the place. They may not sell that many sets to 3rd gen owners, but they have a booming business in the sport truck market.
Supreme Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,663
Likes: 9
From: Buckhannon, WV
Car: 84' Monte
Engine: 350
Transmission: 700-r4
Axle/Gears: ferd 9" posi 3.50 gears
"they have a booming business in the sport truck market."
Bingo!!!! They prey on the uninformed and easily presuaded. These are the same people who buy tornado's and Naws subwoofers.
I my self am an informed buyer, If a company won't tell me even the most basic specs of their product I won't even consider them. Air bags have their place, mainly on vehicles that need to vary their ride height (low riders) or carry heavy loads (18 wheelers). They just have no advantage on a performance oriented car.
Bingo!!!! They prey on the uninformed and easily presuaded. These are the same people who buy tornado's and Naws subwoofers.
I my self am an informed buyer, If a company won't tell me even the most basic specs of their product I won't even consider them. Air bags have their place, mainly on vehicles that need to vary their ride height (low riders) or carry heavy loads (18 wheelers). They just have no advantage on a performance oriented car.
Supreme Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 6,577
Likes: 0
From: Portland, OR www.cascadecrew.org
Car: 1990 Camaro RS
Engine: Juiced 5.0 TBI - 300rwhp
Transmission: T5
Axle/Gears: 3.42 Eaton Posi, 10 Bolt
I'll post this up again. Just as BMmonteSS is saying. But, I'll go a step beyond. I am going to include a great peice of information from an e-mail that Karl Hunter and myself had about this subject. For those who do not know, Karl builds race cars, and races thirdgens out of BC, his own car, and cars that he has build, hold several hillclimb records.
Anyway - about air suspension in performance vehicles...
For a venicle in a performance application air suspension is not the best
choice, and there are many reasons, most of which pertain to "spring rate"
With metal springs it is very easy to control spring rate, and that rate is
very consistent throughout the range of travel within the springs physical
limitations. For example - if you have a metal spring that has a 1000 Lb/In
rate then it will require 3000 Lbs to compress the spring 3 inches, and
another 1000 Lbs to compress it an additional inch and so on.
With air springs, however, the rate is determined by the volume of air
inside the chamber and the dimensions of the chamber - and that rate is
constantly VARIABLE - and according to the ride height with an air bag type
spring, the rate will be different and continuously variable for different
ride height settings. The more volume in the chamber (heigher ride height)
the softer the spring will be. The less volume, the stiffer. The biggest
problem is the non-linear way that an air bag spring responds to changing
loads - it may take 1000 Lbs to compress the spring 1 inch - but the next
inch may be 2000 Lbs depending on the dimensions of the chamber. Also - in a
roll condition the outside loaded wheel will have a rising rate spring
working on the suspension where the inside wheel has a decreasing rate
spring. You follow? Everything is constantly changing with an air
suspension. Setting corner weights becomes almost impossible - and if you
can adjust each corner individually, by the time you get the corner weights
set on the car you could end up with completely different spring rates at
any given corner with no way to resolve the issue, even though the "air
pressure" may be the same. Pressure and volume are both critical, but you
get stuck with the air bags that are supplied and those are what determine
what characteristics the spring will have - and in most cases the air bags
are generic and there is nothing you can change. Ideally, you could set the
air spring to have the correct volume of air (nitrogen would be better) and
then shim the spring (or use a threaded adjuster) to get the correct height
- but this is never the case.
Metal springs are used in racing cars for all these reasons. Consistent rate
- easy to change rate - easy to change height - linear - etc...
Not to mention that air springs are affected by temperature and
environmental conditions... that and the need for a pump and pressure
monitor - blah blah blah.
Need I go on?
Was there a thread on ThirdGen with a similar subject? Don't be afraid to
tell anyone who says that air ride systems are better than coil springs that
they are a complete moron... then ask them why Formula-1 cars don't use air
springs on the suspension??? (they use titanium torsion bars)
Oh - and coil springs are nothing more than torsion bars that have been
wrapped up in a coil - they operate in the exact same manner. No difference
in performance.
Let me know if this answers your questions.
Karl Hunter
Hunter Motorsports
Vancouver B.C. Canada
For a venicle in a performance application air suspension is not the best
choice, and there are many reasons, most of which pertain to "spring rate"
With metal springs it is very easy to control spring rate, and that rate is
very consistent throughout the range of travel within the springs physical
limitations. For example - if you have a metal spring that has a 1000 Lb/In
rate then it will require 3000 Lbs to compress the spring 3 inches, and
another 1000 Lbs to compress it an additional inch and so on.
With air springs, however, the rate is determined by the volume of air
inside the chamber and the dimensions of the chamber - and that rate is
constantly VARIABLE - and according to the ride height with an air bag type
spring, the rate will be different and continuously variable for different
ride height settings. The more volume in the chamber (heigher ride height)
the softer the spring will be. The less volume, the stiffer. The biggest
problem is the non-linear way that an air bag spring responds to changing
loads - it may take 1000 Lbs to compress the spring 1 inch - but the next
inch may be 2000 Lbs depending on the dimensions of the chamber. Also - in a
roll condition the outside loaded wheel will have a rising rate spring
working on the suspension where the inside wheel has a decreasing rate
spring. You follow? Everything is constantly changing with an air
suspension. Setting corner weights becomes almost impossible - and if you
can adjust each corner individually, by the time you get the corner weights
set on the car you could end up with completely different spring rates at
any given corner with no way to resolve the issue, even though the "air
pressure" may be the same. Pressure and volume are both critical, but you
get stuck with the air bags that are supplied and those are what determine
what characteristics the spring will have - and in most cases the air bags
are generic and there is nothing you can change. Ideally, you could set the
air spring to have the correct volume of air (nitrogen would be better) and
then shim the spring (or use a threaded adjuster) to get the correct height
- but this is never the case.
Metal springs are used in racing cars for all these reasons. Consistent rate
- easy to change rate - easy to change height - linear - etc...
Not to mention that air springs are affected by temperature and
environmental conditions... that and the need for a pump and pressure
monitor - blah blah blah.
Need I go on?
Was there a thread on ThirdGen with a similar subject? Don't be afraid to
tell anyone who says that air ride systems are better than coil springs that
they are a complete moron... then ask them why Formula-1 cars don't use air
springs on the suspension??? (they use titanium torsion bars)
Oh - and coil springs are nothing more than torsion bars that have been
wrapped up in a coil - they operate in the exact same manner. No difference
in performance.
Let me know if this answers your questions.
Karl Hunter
Hunter Motorsports
Vancouver B.C. Canada
Junior Member
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
From: Cypress, Tx
Supreme Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,663
Likes: 9
From: Buckhannon, WV
Car: 84' Monte
Engine: 350
Transmission: 700-r4
Axle/Gears: ferd 9" posi 3.50 gears
No.... I put anyone who suggests that air bags will peform better on their car than coil springs in the "uninformed" catagory. These types of people usually buy into marketing hype and will buy whatever the masses are entertained by at the moment.
Not everyone falls into this catagory, but if you still trully believe that air bags have a major advantage over springs then you haven't done enough research.....or are ignoring the facts to make yourself feel better about your purchase.
If you are looking for a decent ride and want the ability to adjust your ride height on the fly....then knock yourself out with the airbags. Just don't go preaching that they perform better than coil springs in a performance application.
Not everyone falls into this catagory, but if you still trully believe that air bags have a major advantage over springs then you haven't done enough research.....or are ignoring the facts to make yourself feel better about your purchase.
If you are looking for a decent ride and want the ability to adjust your ride height on the fly....then knock yourself out with the airbags. Just don't go preaching that they perform better than coil springs in a performance application.
Supreme Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 6,577
Likes: 0
From: Portland, OR www.cascadecrew.org
Car: 1990 Camaro RS
Engine: Juiced 5.0 TBI - 300rwhp
Transmission: T5
Axle/Gears: 3.42 Eaton Posi, 10 Bolt
Well put Monte (you post on c-c right? I am waiting for the c-c style smack down. 
)
I also don't even want to think about what kind of valving you would need on the shocks, to cope with the weird rebound from air bags.
)I also don't even want to think about what kind of valving you would need on the shocks, to cope with the weird rebound from air bags.
Supreme Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,663
Likes: 9
From: Buckhannon, WV
Car: 84' Monte
Engine: 350
Transmission: 700-r4
Axle/Gears: ferd 9" posi 3.50 gears
C-C....yeah I've heard of the place
I post as Bronson M
I don't think thirdgen is ready for a Matt type smackdown.
I post as Bronson MI don't think thirdgen is ready for a Matt type smackdown.
Supreme Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 6,577
Likes: 0
From: Portland, OR www.cascadecrew.org
Car: 1990 Camaro RS
Engine: Juiced 5.0 TBI - 300rwhp
Transmission: T5
Axle/Gears: 3.42 Eaton Posi, 10 Bolt
Matt is the man. Maybe JohnnyX is looking for a new internet home.
Junior Member
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
From: Cypress, Tx
No.... I put anyone who suggests that air bags will peform better on their car than coil springs in the "uninformed" catagory. These types of people usually buy into marketing hype and will buy whatever the masses are entertained by at the moment.
Not everyone falls into this category, but if you still truly believe that air bags have a major advantage over springs then you haven't done enough research.....or are ignoring the facts to make yourself feel better about your purchase. .
Not everyone falls into this category, but if you still truly believe that air bags have a major advantage over springs then you haven't done enough research.....or are ignoring the facts to make yourself feel better about your purchase. .
Boris Said is a well known road course driver who is currently co-owner of the # 60 SoBe/No Fear ford in the NASCAR Nextel Cup Series. He also has competed extensively in the Grand American Racing Series GT, NASCAR Craftsman Truck and Busch Series, and Trans Am series. His aggressive driving style will expose the weak link in any car and his candor will leave no doubt about what that link may be!
“ Before I came to the Street Challenge last year I thought that air suspension was what you see when the car bounces up and down. After driving many of the Air Ride Technologies cars, I was shocked! It made an old car drive like a new one…the car was much crisper, much flatter. I liked that fact that I could make changes in the air pressure and directly affect the handling of the car…if it was pushing I would raise the back just a little, if it was loose I would soften the rear. I am buying a 55 F100 and one of the first things I am doing is putting an air suspension on it. Now that I have seen how nice the ride quality is, and how well they drive, it’s definitely what I want for my everyday driver.”
“ Before I came to the Street Challenge last year I thought that air suspension was what you see when the car bounces up and down. After driving many of the Air Ride Technologies cars, I was shocked! It made an old car drive like a new one…the car was much crisper, much flatter. I liked that fact that I could make changes in the air pressure and directly affect the handling of the car…if it was pushing I would raise the back just a little, if it was loose I would soften the rear. I am buying a 55 F100 and one of the first things I am doing is putting an air suspension on it. Now that I have seen how nice the ride quality is, and how well they drive, it’s definitely what I want for my everyday driver.”
Scott Pruett is the driver for the Ganassi Racing #01 in the Grand American Rolex sports Car Series. He has also won several SCCA Trans Am, IMSA GTO, and IMSA GT Endurance Championships.
“ Like many people, I thought that air suspension was more of a style or cosmetic thing than a performance item. I had a 50 Buick with a crude airbag system on it but had never taken the time to learn anything about it so the performance of my Buick system was not impressive. After coming to the Street Challenge this year I know there is a whole new level of performance available with an air suspension. These cars rode and drove great! It is truly the best of both worlds. There was no sacrifice of ride quality to get superior performance. When I got out of the red Chevelle with the stock suspension, I was DONE with that car…it was scary. The air suspension Chevelle drove and rode great…AND was 14 seconds a lap faster!”
“ Like many people, I thought that air suspension was more of a style or cosmetic thing than a performance item. I had a 50 Buick with a crude airbag system on it but had never taken the time to learn anything about it so the performance of my Buick system was not impressive. After coming to the Street Challenge this year I know there is a whole new level of performance available with an air suspension. These cars rode and drove great! It is truly the best of both worlds. There was no sacrifice of ride quality to get superior performance. When I got out of the red Chevelle with the stock suspension, I was DONE with that car…it was scary. The air suspension Chevelle drove and rode great…AND was 14 seconds a lap faster!”
And just so we are perfectly clear I never said that air suspension would or would not perform "better" than any set up. I was actually trying to have a conversation on the subject that it might perform "as well as" a properly tuned mechanical adjusted suspension and possibly enlighten both of us until my intelligence (or lack of) became an issue with you.....
Supreme Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 6,577
Likes: 0
From: Portland, OR www.cascadecrew.org
Car: 1990 Camaro RS
Engine: Juiced 5.0 TBI - 300rwhp
Transmission: T5
Axle/Gears: 3.42 Eaton Posi, 10 Bolt
Toss new shocks and bushing on any car, and it drives like it was new again. No magic or pumps needed.
Their comparisons are also crap. Look at the specs on some of the cars they are comparing. Notice they don't any IDENTICAL cars. The 67/68 Camaro comparison for example. "It has been updated with a new 420hp 383 Jasper engine." They neglect to include what engine the other camaro was running.
It was a publicity stunt, nothing else. When they descide to enter a car in something like A-Sedan, or CMC, or AI or AIX, or any other race series, to PROVE that with everything else being equal, they can compete with coil springs. They aren't doing that. Instead, they picked a day to set up a way to try to show they can compete, and they went about it in a BS way.
I am not going to insult your intelligence, but I do think that you are a little uniformed as to the functions of all these parts, and also being able to spot the flaws in the tests that they are showing.
If you feel the need to try to find data to prove this to me, go for it. Find me data showing the same car, going faster with air bags, with ALL else being equal. I could make all sorts of suspension parts that don't work, and toss them on a car, along with new shocks/struts, that are double adjustable, and new bushings. Of course that car will be faster around a race track. Hell, I could toss a 100lbs of extra wieght on the car with all that stuff. It will go faster. I could then prove that adding weight, makes you faster! I bet I could sell that to people too!!!
Their comparisons are also crap. Look at the specs on some of the cars they are comparing. Notice they don't any IDENTICAL cars. The 67/68 Camaro comparison for example. "It has been updated with a new 420hp 383 Jasper engine." They neglect to include what engine the other camaro was running.
It was a publicity stunt, nothing else. When they descide to enter a car in something like A-Sedan, or CMC, or AI or AIX, or any other race series, to PROVE that with everything else being equal, they can compete with coil springs. They aren't doing that. Instead, they picked a day to set up a way to try to show they can compete, and they went about it in a BS way.
I am not going to insult your intelligence, but I do think that you are a little uniformed as to the functions of all these parts, and also being able to spot the flaws in the tests that they are showing.
If you feel the need to try to find data to prove this to me, go for it. Find me data showing the same car, going faster with air bags, with ALL else being equal. I could make all sorts of suspension parts that don't work, and toss them on a car, along with new shocks/struts, that are double adjustable, and new bushings. Of course that car will be faster around a race track. Hell, I could toss a 100lbs of extra wieght on the car with all that stuff. It will go faster. I could then prove that adding weight, makes you faster! I bet I could sell that to people too!!!
Supreme Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,663
Likes: 9
From: Buckhannon, WV
Car: 84' Monte
Engine: 350
Transmission: 700-r4
Axle/Gears: ferd 9" posi 3.50 gears
Dewey hit the nail on the head, those tests included the entire air-ride suspension "kit", which includes control arms with poly bushings, adjustable shocks, and in some cases a complete 4-link rear end setup where a leaf spring setup once was. It wasn't a fair test, and most of the guys you’re quoting were probably paid to come to that test.
The fact is your basing everything your saying off of what some one else has to say about the product. I base my analysis on facts, and the facts are there aren't many when it comes to air bags. Just hearsay and "wow that car handles" type comments. I have a knee jerk reaction to any company that won't even give you the most basic specs of their product. I have to ask what are they hiding, why spend so much money on advertising if you have a solid product? I'm skeptical because unfortunately the auto industry is full of crooks and thieves who pedal products that are junk but pawn them off on unsuspecting customers because few people really take the time to fully understand how a part works.
Dewey already pointed out the problems with air-bags, so I'm not going to rehash it for you. It all comes down to the progressive spring rate that air-bags have, if you consider that most if not all race cars don't even use progressive springs there is just no way an ultra progressive spring be it air or metal is going to work. Make an air bag with a constant spring rate, and I'll consider it.
I'd also like to add that I'm not "bashing" or singling you out, I just spend an extraordinary amount of time studying and learning about suspension design. I'm not always right, but most of the time I won't post something unless I know it for a fact. When I am wrong I'll freely admit it and do more research until I fully understand a subject. On C-C.com I have 34 posts in 2 years......you know what that means? It means that I go there to learn and ask questions, the best in the industry post on that site and I know I don't have anything to contribute. There is a wealth of knowledge on that site and I've learned more in my 34 questions than I have in 2000 posts here.
The fact is your basing everything your saying off of what some one else has to say about the product. I base my analysis on facts, and the facts are there aren't many when it comes to air bags. Just hearsay and "wow that car handles" type comments. I have a knee jerk reaction to any company that won't even give you the most basic specs of their product. I have to ask what are they hiding, why spend so much money on advertising if you have a solid product? I'm skeptical because unfortunately the auto industry is full of crooks and thieves who pedal products that are junk but pawn them off on unsuspecting customers because few people really take the time to fully understand how a part works.
Dewey already pointed out the problems with air-bags, so I'm not going to rehash it for you. It all comes down to the progressive spring rate that air-bags have, if you consider that most if not all race cars don't even use progressive springs there is just no way an ultra progressive spring be it air or metal is going to work. Make an air bag with a constant spring rate, and I'll consider it.
I'd also like to add that I'm not "bashing" or singling you out, I just spend an extraordinary amount of time studying and learning about suspension design. I'm not always right, but most of the time I won't post something unless I know it for a fact. When I am wrong I'll freely admit it and do more research until I fully understand a subject. On C-C.com I have 34 posts in 2 years......you know what that means? It means that I go there to learn and ask questions, the best in the industry post on that site and I know I don't have anything to contribute. There is a wealth of knowledge on that site and I've learned more in my 34 questions than I have in 2000 posts here.
Last edited by BMmonteSS; Dec 2, 2006 at 08:57 AM.
Junior Member
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
From: Cypress, Tx
Dewey316- I can see that no matter what pro car builders or pro drivers think of an air suspension you are not going to look at the subject with an open mind. Everything they say must be bs and they have no concern for their reputation in their respective circles. It's obvious that they are willing to offer paid testimonials with out concern what their family and piers might think of them. I see no reason to try to discuss it since you have all the answers you need already.
BMmonteSS- Again it appears that you are assuming that I have no knowledge of 3rd gen suspension systems or air suspensions since you state "The fact is your basing everything your saying off of what some one else has to say about the product. " I used the examples that I posted as a credible source, but certainly not my only source of knowledge.
It does seem that you are interested in having intelligent conversation on the subject though, so lets try again. I'm not sure who you have talked with at what company that was not able to provide you with the information that you want. I will bet that I could get the answers to your questions if you are truly serious about knowing.
Possibly you have talked to the wrong person(s) and they did not have the information. I do know that there are some very knowledgeable people at Air Ride Technologies that I could direct you to if you want.
Again let me clarify that I am not stating that an air adjustable system is, or is not feasible "as we know it" to out perform a mechanically adjustable system. I do think that there are certain systems out there that might be set up to perform well enough to make the advantages of an "on the fly" adjustable system worth looking in to.
I do know in street applications the ability to adjust at will to gain clearance for bad road surfaces, speed bumps, etc is a great advantage over the static dropped suspensions I have had.
Certainly the ability to adjust a car from street height, to track height as well as have 4 corner tunability with the push of a button should have great advantages on a track.
Keep in mind that there have been air over coil suspensions successfully used in race car applications for many years. What? Yes, it's true. Drag cars with coil spring rear suspensions have used small air bags inside the coils to have the ability to adjust for more or less traction for many years so in some cases it is more than my speculation, it is race track proven to be a very feasible application.
One last thing before you guys blow this off as inept ramblings of a fool, let's talk about the weight factor. Truly in an all out race car pounds and ounces are critical in getting that last bit of horsepower out of your motor. In anything less than that I can't see that the weight of an air suspension is of concern.
While I will admit that I have never actually weighed an air tank, compressor, and valves I feel very confident that it's not going to play a factor in anyone's decision to run an adjustable suspension.
Lets focus on what might actually make a difference and we might all learn something....
BMmonteSS- Again it appears that you are assuming that I have no knowledge of 3rd gen suspension systems or air suspensions since you state "The fact is your basing everything your saying off of what some one else has to say about the product. " I used the examples that I posted as a credible source, but certainly not my only source of knowledge.
It does seem that you are interested in having intelligent conversation on the subject though, so lets try again. I'm not sure who you have talked with at what company that was not able to provide you with the information that you want. I will bet that I could get the answers to your questions if you are truly serious about knowing.
Possibly you have talked to the wrong person(s) and they did not have the information. I do know that there are some very knowledgeable people at Air Ride Technologies that I could direct you to if you want.
Again let me clarify that I am not stating that an air adjustable system is, or is not feasible "as we know it" to out perform a mechanically adjustable system. I do think that there are certain systems out there that might be set up to perform well enough to make the advantages of an "on the fly" adjustable system worth looking in to.
I do know in street applications the ability to adjust at will to gain clearance for bad road surfaces, speed bumps, etc is a great advantage over the static dropped suspensions I have had.
Certainly the ability to adjust a car from street height, to track height as well as have 4 corner tunability with the push of a button should have great advantages on a track.
Keep in mind that there have been air over coil suspensions successfully used in race car applications for many years. What? Yes, it's true. Drag cars with coil spring rear suspensions have used small air bags inside the coils to have the ability to adjust for more or less traction for many years so in some cases it is more than my speculation, it is race track proven to be a very feasible application.
One last thing before you guys blow this off as inept ramblings of a fool, let's talk about the weight factor. Truly in an all out race car pounds and ounces are critical in getting that last bit of horsepower out of your motor. In anything less than that I can't see that the weight of an air suspension is of concern.
While I will admit that I have never actually weighed an air tank, compressor, and valves I feel very confident that it's not going to play a factor in anyone's decision to run an adjustable suspension.
Lets focus on what might actually make a difference and we might all learn something....
Supreme Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 6,577
Likes: 0
From: Portland, OR www.cascadecrew.org
Car: 1990 Camaro RS
Engine: Juiced 5.0 TBI - 300rwhp
Transmission: T5
Axle/Gears: 3.42 Eaton Posi, 10 Bolt
Dewey316- I can see that no matter what pro car builders or pro drivers think of an air suspension you are not going to look at the subject with an open mind. Everything they say must be bs and they have no concern for their reputation in their respective circles. It's obvious that they are willing to offer paid testimonials with out concern what their family and piers might think of them. I see no reason to try to discuss it since you have all the answers you need already.
BMmonteSS- Again it appears that you are assuming that I have no knowledge of 3rd gen suspension systems or air suspensions since you state "The fact is your basing everything your saying off of what some one else has to say about the product. " I used the examples that I posted as a credible source, but certainly not my only source of knowledge.
Again let me clarify that I am not stating that an air adjustable system is, or is not feasible "as we know it" to out perform a mechanically adjustable system. I do think that there are certain systems out there that might be set up to perform well enough to make the advantages of an "on the fly" adjustable system worth looking in to.
I do know in street applications the ability to adjust at will to gain clearance for bad road surfaces, speed bumps, etc is a great advantage over the static dropped suspensions I have had.
Certainly the ability to adjust a car from street height, to track height as well as have 4 corner tunability with the push of a button should have great advantages on a track.
Keep in mind that there have been air over coil suspensions successfully used in race car applications for many years. What? Yes, it's true. Drag cars with coil spring rear suspensions have used small air bags inside the coils to have the ability to adjust for more or less traction for many years so in some cases it is more than my speculation, it is race track proven to be a very feasible application.
One last thing before you guys blow this off as inept ramblings of a fool, let's talk about the weight factor. Truly in an all out race car pounds and ounces are critical in getting that last bit of horsepower out of your motor. In anything less than that I can't see that the weight of an air suspension is of concern.
While I will admit that I have never actually weighed an air tank, compressor, and valves I feel very confident that it's not going to play a factor in anyone's decision to run an adjustable suspension.
While I will admit that I have never actually weighed an air tank, compressor, and valves I feel very confident that it's not going to play a factor in anyone's decision to run an adjustable suspension.
Lets focus on what might actually make a difference and we might all learn something....
-John
The "Dewey-Lama"
lol... you never change do you.
to answer the original question yes several of us have put air bags in general on our thirdgens. i personally have one with a custom setup from ART and i have an additional traditional style thirdgen kit on order from ART for my newest project.
your price efforts are pretty close to on spot as digital definately makes a difference as well as the type of valves you choose to use. from ART, i chose to run the big red's with my first setup. my second setup to save $300 i went with the standard ride pro's as although smaller in dia. they are easier to control and for normal every day use this is much nicer. the big reds are fun for shows though as i can drop and raise the car very fast.
if you want to save on price go with the smaller valves or if you are savy enough look online and piece together your own system from various vendors as there isn't much to the kits and you can really cut costs. the cheapest i've been able to find a full kit that would work with our cars would be roughly $800 with analog gauges. i chose to spend more and go with ART only because i have personally seen their facilities and how they build their parts so i'm confident they will work the way i want them too.
as far as answering your comparison question. personally they are above and beyond in comparison for a street vehicle. the best option out there indeed. however they are not the case when it comes to auto-x or drag racing as although they will work the solid springs will always outshine in these areas.
for ease of comfort/adjustment and all around use they are above and beyond the best modifications i've done with any of my cars next to actual drivetrain transplants. if your expecting to carve corners like some of the above like to do your wasting your time but if you want a fully adjustable, great riding suspension that won't cost you much on the street go for it!
to answer the original question yes several of us have put air bags in general on our thirdgens. i personally have one with a custom setup from ART and i have an additional traditional style thirdgen kit on order from ART for my newest project.
your price efforts are pretty close to on spot as digital definately makes a difference as well as the type of valves you choose to use. from ART, i chose to run the big red's with my first setup. my second setup to save $300 i went with the standard ride pro's as although smaller in dia. they are easier to control and for normal every day use this is much nicer. the big reds are fun for shows though as i can drop and raise the car very fast.
if you want to save on price go with the smaller valves or if you are savy enough look online and piece together your own system from various vendors as there isn't much to the kits and you can really cut costs. the cheapest i've been able to find a full kit that would work with our cars would be roughly $800 with analog gauges. i chose to spend more and go with ART only because i have personally seen their facilities and how they build their parts so i'm confident they will work the way i want them too.
as far as answering your comparison question. personally they are above and beyond in comparison for a street vehicle. the best option out there indeed. however they are not the case when it comes to auto-x or drag racing as although they will work the solid springs will always outshine in these areas.
for ease of comfort/adjustment and all around use they are above and beyond the best modifications i've done with any of my cars next to actual drivetrain transplants. if your expecting to carve corners like some of the above like to do your wasting your time but if you want a fully adjustable, great riding suspension that won't cost you much on the street go for it!
Supreme Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 6,577
Likes: 0
From: Portland, OR www.cascadecrew.org
Car: 1990 Camaro RS
Engine: Juiced 5.0 TBI - 300rwhp
Transmission: T5
Axle/Gears: 3.42 Eaton Posi, 10 Bolt
Of course not. I may be an *******, but at least I am a consistant *******.
I have nothing against air-bags, I just don't want people to be giving out bad information. There is no way, that for all out performance, that can match a coil spring, and I will argue with anyone who say's so. The information you gave is GOOD information.
You know, that every post I make, has to do with the performance aspect of things. Every mod I do, and everything i have built for my car, was for 1 goal, that is ultimate speed, be it in the engine, or the suspension. My answers to questions about performance, are the same.
And just for the record Jeff, I know we have argued in the past, I have no problem with you at. Any news on the car? I check the apparence forum every now and again, to see if you have done anything. From a cool street machine point, your cars are always really cool. For a guy like me who basicly builds a race car, it is neat to see some of the neat fabrication that goes into your mods. I keep waiting to see if you do the reverse cowl CF hood, I have been working on some desing for a functioning revers cowl, to seal around the radiator (ala C5/6-R), and converting my car to a front-breather.
Anyway, I'm rambling now.
I have nothing against air-bags, I just don't want people to be giving out bad information. There is no way, that for all out performance, that can match a coil spring, and I will argue with anyone who say's so. The information you gave is GOOD information.
You know, that every post I make, has to do with the performance aspect of things. Every mod I do, and everything i have built for my car, was for 1 goal, that is ultimate speed, be it in the engine, or the suspension. My answers to questions about performance, are the same.
And just for the record Jeff, I know we have argued in the past, I have no problem with you at. Any news on the car? I check the apparence forum every now and again, to see if you have done anything. From a cool street machine point, your cars are always really cool. For a guy like me who basicly builds a race car, it is neat to see some of the neat fabrication that goes into your mods. I keep waiting to see if you do the reverse cowl CF hood, I have been working on some desing for a functioning revers cowl, to seal around the radiator (ala C5/6-R), and converting my car to a front-breather.
Anyway, I'm rambling now.
Supreme Member
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,550
Likes: 4
From: Charleston, SC
Car: 91 Camaro Vert
Engine: 02 LS1, HX40
Transmission: 2002 LS1 M6
lol, you guys are so full of ego and crap... 
anyway, the main trick to not losing handling with airsprings is to set the airspring pressure where you need it for spring tension, then adjust teh spring (with spacers or coilover style movement) so that driving height is at that pressure..
once you're in the ballpark, you'll be able to do whatever you could on stock springs, and possibly plus some.... the minor spring rate changes from hot days to cold, humid to dry, wont matter much... just like coil spring guys have a range from draglaunch springs to superstiff autoX, theres a workable range for the bags... and honestly, 99% of us wont feel the diff.
you'll notice the S10 front bags already have the spring perches spaced up appropriately... works great on 3rdgens since the weight up front is similar... out back, its not hard to do either...
that with 8 valves, and your golden... i woudlnt go talking **** to modded for handling guys, but you toss them the keys to your ride without telling them its bagged, and they'll think you have a decent, mild modded suspension.
everyone arguing in this thread is so extreme one way or the other (bags are crap handling VS they handle as good or better then...) that you both come off as pretentious idiots who quote things that are out of scope.
anyway, the main trick to not losing handling with airsprings is to set the airspring pressure where you need it for spring tension, then adjust teh spring (with spacers or coilover style movement) so that driving height is at that pressure..
once you're in the ballpark, you'll be able to do whatever you could on stock springs, and possibly plus some.... the minor spring rate changes from hot days to cold, humid to dry, wont matter much... just like coil spring guys have a range from draglaunch springs to superstiff autoX, theres a workable range for the bags... and honestly, 99% of us wont feel the diff.
you'll notice the S10 front bags already have the spring perches spaced up appropriately... works great on 3rdgens since the weight up front is similar... out back, its not hard to do either...
that with 8 valves, and your golden... i woudlnt go talking **** to modded for handling guys, but you toss them the keys to your ride without telling them its bagged, and they'll think you have a decent, mild modded suspension.
everyone arguing in this thread is so extreme one way or the other (bags are crap handling VS they handle as good or better then...) that you both come off as pretentious idiots who quote things that are out of scope.
Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 401
Likes: 0
From: Bondurant, IA
wow...I hadn't checked this thread for awhile. Sounds like I completely blew it. I did not mean for it to be taken as using airbags for a race car, merely a semi-performance street car. If i was building a full on drag car or auto-x car, hell no I wouldn't put airbags on it, because as a few more knowledgeable people have stated, they aren't as good in a racecar.
Back to the original question of the post, he wanted to know about the difference from a traditional setup. S/He did not specify racing, so I took it as a regular road car. Kandied chimed in and said for a road/mild performance car there is no no better performance/comfort option, and I would have to totally agree.
I am glad that there are people out there who will question manufactures and their information. If i knew enough about what i was looking for I would be skeptical as well. Now tabout them answering your questions, I can't say that I blame the phoen operators for not knowing. To be realistic, yes, airbags are more of a mini-truck scene. Most of the buyers of the systems will not really care about the performance, so I am relatively confident in my assumption that they may not test all of those things at all. Maybe it isn't possible to have a machine test airbags, I don't know.Being in the minority, they are not going to be as worried about the racers.
I am also semi-confident in the fact that some of the people answering the phones there aren't really suspension experts. If you got ahold of the right people, they may not give you the exact answer you are looking for, but they would be much closer that the people who field calls first. I believe that someone alrady offered good tech guys.
I am not trying to offend anyone, I feel that I partially started this **** storm, and that what I said was taken in the wrong context by people much more knowledgeable than I.
/gets of box/
Back to the original question of the post, he wanted to know about the difference from a traditional setup. S/He did not specify racing, so I took it as a regular road car. Kandied chimed in and said for a road/mild performance car there is no no better performance/comfort option, and I would have to totally agree.
I am glad that there are people out there who will question manufactures and their information. If i knew enough about what i was looking for I would be skeptical as well. Now tabout them answering your questions, I can't say that I blame the phoen operators for not knowing. To be realistic, yes, airbags are more of a mini-truck scene. Most of the buyers of the systems will not really care about the performance, so I am relatively confident in my assumption that they may not test all of those things at all. Maybe it isn't possible to have a machine test airbags, I don't know.Being in the minority, they are not going to be as worried about the racers.
I am also semi-confident in the fact that some of the people answering the phones there aren't really suspension experts. If you got ahold of the right people, they may not give you the exact answer you are looking for, but they would be much closer that the people who field calls first. I believe that someone alrady offered good tech guys.
I am not trying to offend anyone, I feel that I partially started this **** storm, and that what I said was taken in the wrong context by people much more knowledgeable than I.
/gets of box/
Thread Starter
Senior Member
iTrader: (14)
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 823
Likes: 1
From: erlangen, Germany
Car: 1991 Z28 1LE
Engine: LS1
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 3.42
Thanks for answering my question, that's all I was really looking for I guess I should have specified that I'm not looking for a pure racecar, just something for the street that's a little different from the norm so thanks again.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
IROCZDAVE (88-L98)
Engine/Drivetrain/Suspension Parts for Sale
0
Sep 2, 2015 08:43 AM
