joshwilson3

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toomany

In that second picture, the ball joint is coming out of the a-arm. I don't know if your replacments have a snap ring on them (to prevent them from droping out)...some are just held in by the press fit. Either way it looks like the hole in the a-arm is worn out. I'd replace the arm (and real soon, like before driving) along with the ball joint. The shop could have loosened the hole the first time they did the joint.

joshwilson3

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Guest

No, that is not causing it. The hole in the control arm is too big, for whatever reason, and you either need to replace the arm (best option) or have the joint welded in place (bad idea). They also used to sell oversize joints for this reason, but I dont think anyone sells one anymore.

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

The bone yards are full of them.

JamesC

1988GTA500HP

Moog still makes an oversized ball joint. It's called the problem solver.

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/web...SAMS_714805095___

However, from the pics it looks like the rust has eaten quite a bit of the LCA away. I doubt if the problem solver would fix that. I would get the new control arm.

joshwilson3

How do I know if the control arm in the junk yard is any good? It might have the same problem I'm having now.

joshwilson3

What I could do is install that Moog ball joint to see if I can then jack the control arm up without the ball joint falling through.

If that don't work, then I could just get a control arm from the junk yard, put the Moog ball joint in it, new bushings and have that installed.

I'm guessing the ball joint could be pressed in and out a couple of times? Or do they get damaged?

Guest

I dont see where that says, anywhere, that it is the oversize joint. Its also the same part number they spec for stock replacement.
http://www.power-21.com/federalmogul...px?pc=Steering

The only part they list is K6145T. Its the stock part.

joshwilson3

I went out there and looked. It already has the Moog problem solver ball joint on it. So, that means I'll have to go to the junk yard to get a control arm.

Could I reuse that ball joint since it is only a year old? Or is it damaged? I'd like to keep the cost down since I now have to go to the junk yard. And I'm betting it will cost alot since they will probably have to pull it vs. me being able to just grab it myself.

If the ball joint has to be replaced, then I'll probably just get a cheap one since this would be the 3rd ball joint in a couple of years.

joshwilson3

That is the oversized ball joint. It is .002-.004 oversized. That is what is on there now. So, that means I'll have to get a control arm from the junk yard.

And I'll need to get a ball joint installer, so I can press the ball joint back in the control arm so I can drive it to the shop. I'm sure it will be fine since it has been like this for 2 years.

Guest

You can see in the picture the outer portion of the joint where it fits in the control arm is knurled. When it is installed, to a degree and depending on the joint, this area shows evidence of being installed. However, given that I'm certain Moog is NOT making a larger OD joint, its pointless to try that route.

I found these on rockauto.com

MCQUAY-NORRIS Part # FA3000
Lower Ball Joint FRONT SUSP - OVERSIZE [Wholesaler Closeout -- 30 Day Warranty] (Only 7 Remaining)

RAYBESTOS Part # 5051026OSB More Info {Service Grade}
Front Suspension; Lower; Oversize (Only 6 Remaining)

ACDELCO Part # 45D2027 More Info {#88911525}
JOINT,FRT LWR CONT ARM BALL -; LOWER; 2 DOORS; OVERSIZE

IIRC, Raybestos is a Mcquay anyway so... looks like they stopped making them. Good chance AC Delco was supplying from them since it seems they are the only source so if you want one, better act soon. Apparently there are still 13+ of them out there.

joshwilson3

How are you certain? I had just called Moog and they said the K6145T is oversized by .002-.004. That is what is on there now. And that confirms on what I've read elsewhere that the part numbers ending in "T" are oversized.

Are there some ball joints that are more oversized than that?

joshwilson3

I'm gonna head out to the junk yard to see what I can find. What other cars have the same control arm?

1988GTA500HP

Their listing doesn't say it, but if you look close you can see "Problem Solver" stamped right into the balljoint.

Guest

Just about everything they sell says "problem solver", they have a full tech sheet on the modifications involved in that joint in particular. They also sell problem solver idler arms, tie rod ends, etc. Kind of meaningless in and of itself.

Did they say 2 or 20 thousandths oversize? .002 isnt worth discussing.

joshwilson3

The guy said on the phone .002. But I thought I read somewhere on the net it was .02.

How much is the oversize supposed to have?

I see they sell an oversized Valuecraft at Autozone. Might could just try that and see what it does. I know Valuecraft is cheap, but would rather try that first then a $50 oversized at Napa that doesn't work and still have to get a junk yard control arm.

By the way. Are all 3rd gen control arms the same? The junk yard was saying 16" wheels had a different control arm. It got late, so I'll have to check back with them another day. But most of theirs have been hit on the passenger side. Even though on one the passenger wheel looked crooked, the control arm looked okay, and the ball joint was flush. So, that might be a good one.

Guest

The turn stop is different between tire sizes.

It should be more like .020 if its oversize, .002 wouldnt make a bit of difference. That is about a sheet of paper.

joshwilson3

I'm thinking it may be best to just get a junk yard control arm and hope the ball joint hole isn't worn.

As I'm thinking it wouldn't be worth it to put valucraft oversized ball joints in there if they are just gonna fail. The only other option to get oversized ball joints are $40 or so at Napa. And then, that may still not work.

So, it may be best to get $35 control arm, new bushings, and either reuse the Moog ball joint I've got in there now since it isn't too old, or just get a $20 ball joint a Advance or something.

Do you think that Moog ball joint would still be good to press out and put in the junk yard control arm? Or do you have to replace them once they've been pressed? I just wouldn't want to throw away a good Moog ball joint if I don't have to.

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

Buy a new one.

JamesC

joshwilson3

Why are you saying to buy a new one? Cause once the ball joint has been pressed in/out once, it is bad? Or are you saying to replace it since I'm already there?

If it is the later, then I'd like to just reuse it as its the 3rd ball joint in that spot and not too old. This is a $35 ball joint that I wouldn't want to throw away if it can be pressed in again.

brutalform

Probably, that way you are not getting one that might have the same problem as yours.

The arm should not be bad after one R/R, but you never know. If someone installed the old joint incorrectly, you could ruin the bore. You should make sure the press tool is always "square" on the bottom of the arm, as you press it in.

joshwilson3

I say the passenger control arm on mine is bad. As the OEM ball joint fell apart when driving down the road in stop and go traffic one day. The control arm was laying in the road.

So I got a new ball joint, shock, brake line, tire, etc. Then a few months later, the same thing fell apart with control arm laying in the road. So I took it somewhere else since the prior dealer owned shop I had went to closed down.

Anyways, this shop put in a new Moog ball joint. It has been there for probably a year. Then recently with the control arm jacked up, the wheel was wabbly. So, I say that Moog ball joint has been loose in the control arm all this time. This goes to show you shops don't check things, as I just had it in for an oil change as well.

I did notice a clank or something when turning. I say it was that ball joint being loose in the control arm.

I may just get a new ball joint so I can go ahead and press it into the junk yard control arm. I plan on renting the ball joint puller/installer. I'm guessing it is pretty simple to use?

And can you recommend a ball joint? I could get that Moog ball joint again, but really don't want to spend a ton of money since I'm having to buy a $35 control arm and $20 in new bushings.

joshwilson3

I was wondering what kind of problem would a loose fitting ball joint in the control arm cause?

I don't know if the ball joint was seated before I jacked the control arm up. But after letting it back down. The ball joint is still sitting down some like in the 2nd pic. So, I'll have to press it back up in the control arm with a ball joint installer.

If I'm able to press the ball joint back in the control arm and it stays in place after I lower the jack from the control arm. What problems would happen if I kept driving like that?

I know I've had a problem of the control arm landing on the ground twice while driving. But I'm unsure if that is because the actual ball joint fell part, or because the castle nut backed off?

What ball joint would you guys recommend for the new control arm, Moog or TRW?

1988GTA500HP

I had no idea. I read on the net that it was oversized but I know that doesn't make it true. The posting could have been an assumption. Thanks for the info.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Also note that last picture you posted of the "OK" ball joint. It isn't fully seated into the control arm either. Makes one wonder.

Best bet is to weld the ball joints. Just tack weld in 3 spots will do the trick. This is a lot more common then many people realize. It is done from below where the lip of the control arm meets the flange on the ball joint.

Wire brush the area clean, press the joints back in, and tack weld. Done. When new joints are needed then scour up some better control arms.

The other thing that can be done is to purchase ball joint mounting sleeves. Circle track shops use these when they build control arms. Mill out the current sleeve and weld in the new sleeve.

RBob.

brutalform

MOOG!!!

brutalform

One thing you might want to try too, is get a chisel and ball peen hammer, and "stake" the lip in three spots around the circumference of the lip on the arm. (The part that fits snug against the knurled part of the joint.) I would at least give it a try, and it might be easier than replacing, and/or welding.

joshwilson3

I say the control arm is bad if I've had two ball joints fall apart while going down the road, and this one is loose in the control arm when I jacked the control arm up.

Though I guess I should ask. Is it okay to jack the control arm up next to the ball joint to get the tire off the ground? I'm assuming when you do that, the ball joint should stay in place in the control arm? As that is how I noticed the ball joint in the passenger side was loose.

joshwilson3

That ball joint is the OEM ball joint. I've never replaced it.

Though, that pic is when I jacked the control arm up next to the ball joint. Is that okay to do? I was trying to get the tire off the ground. But I'm guessing when the control arm is jacked, the ball joint should stay in place in the control arm and NOT drop down any?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Is it possible that a previous owner replaced it?

It is safe and normal to jack up the control arm under the spring seat. This is actually done to relieve the tension on a ball joint in order to check the play in it.

And no, they should not drop down or out of the control arm. The press fit is supposed to be rather tight. So much so that I use a moly lube of the outside of the joint when pressing them in. Others use anti-seize as a lube while pressing them in.

As others mentioned use either Moog or NAPA premium suspension parts. Avoid TRW parts.

The stock 3rd gen ball joint OD at the press fit location is: 2.075"

Can use that to check if and by how much oversize joints are.

RBob.

joshwilson3

It is possible the PO had the driver side ball joint replaced, but I doubt it as I bought it with 70k miles on it at the time. And the PO stored it away for 4 years.

But I guess it would just be best to just replace the control arm and hope the junkyard one is good.

I thought about maybe getting it tack welded since it is a Moog ball joint, so it should last a while, but I don't want the ball joint to fall out going 60 mph.

Anyways, how would I get the ball joint in there now pressed back up in the control arm so I can drive it to the shop? I'm thinking if I take the wheel off. Jack up the control arm, and use the ball joint press, then it will fall back down once I take the press off.

I was thinking of maybe putting the jack under the ball joint, and raising the jack under the ball joint to see if it will then go back up in the control arm? Or would that be bad?

Or I might could jack the control arm up. Then use my Firebird jack to jack the ball joint up since the control arm will be off it. Then lower the jack under the control arm while also slowly lower the Firebird jack under the ball joint keeping it pressed.

joshwilson3

I've got a control arm from the junk yard. Is this hole okay for the endlinks? I'm not sure if that it how it is supposed to be, or if it is elongated?



I plan on going over it real good with a wire brush. Clean it up with Simple Green. Then I'll probably put a few coats of rust converter to primer. Then probably hit it with some black sandable primer or something.

I've got the bushings out. But it looks like the ball joint press isn't correct. The instructions are crappy, but I put all the stuff on it, but it looks like everything is too tall for the C clamp. As I can't get the C clamp in place because it isn't long enough. Does this require a special ball joint press?

And know of any good pics that show you where to put all the things at for the press? The instruction tell you to screw it from the bottom, but I think you are supposed to screw it from the top to press it out.

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

The end link has elongated the hole--common, I think, on our cars.

JamesC

joshwilson3

So, I'm guessing it should be fine?

I hope so. I was able to get the bushings out, but the metal sleeves are still in. May just need a shop to press them out, and press in new ones. I'm gonna replace the end links. Probably just go with TRW.

joshwilson3

Can someone please explain what is wrong with the ball joint puller? I got one at Advance, and it too doesn't work. I put all the adapters in the correct place, but the C clamp is still too short to go around the adapters.

I was hoping to save some money by pulling it myself, but I guess I'll have to take it to a shop.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

To remove an old ball joint I place a metal pipe under the control arm surrounding the ball joint. Such that the bottom end of the joint is inside of the pipe. Then place the pipe on a piece of wood that is on a solid surface (such as a driveway).

Remove the rubber boot and with a hammer bang on the top of the ball joint casing. Just keep going back and forth around the casing and press it out evenly. If the stud will stay upright can also bang straight down on top of it.

Use some PB Blaster or Kroil in the area of the control arm where the ball joint is pressed in. Even some oil will help.

RBob.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Avoid TRW parts.

RBob.

joshwilson3

Wouldn't it be kinda hard to hit the hammer on the casing and not hit the control arm? I'm thinking it may be better if I were to do that, by placing the adapter on top of the metal stud that sticks up. Then hit the hammer on top of the adapter.

And what would be better. New TRW endlinks, or OEM 170K mile endlinks?

What is better than TRW but still cheap? I can go cheaper and get OE brand endlinks.

And what would be some good cheap control arm bushings?

Oh, and what size endlinks? I see the sets come in different lengths. Then if you just buy the bushings, they come in different sizes.

joshwilson3

This isn't the correct way as it is shown in the instructions:

Guest

Thats only going to happen if the screw is threaded into that lower plate. I'm betting its not.

joshwilson3

I got it out. The instructions were wrong.

I did what it showed in this video:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3jjPouRdFw

Now I'll just have to figure out how to install it after I clean it up and hit it with some rust converter and let sit for 24 hours.

I did get the bushings out, but the sleeves are still in there. I'll probably let a shop press out the sleeves, and install new bushings. I'm probably just gonna go with the cheap bushings. As I say whatever I use is better than 170k oem bushings.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

All I can say is that every time I've purchased a TRW suspension part I've regretted it. So I just avoid them at all costs.

RBob.

joshwilson3

I also hear people complain about Moog. But I say anything would be better than 170k OEM bushings.

Can you recommend a cheap control arm bushing? I'm looking at probably OE brand or Duralast. But I need to call Napa to see what they have. I just don't plan on spending $30 for these.

And can you recommend a cheap end link kit?

joshwilson3

I checked out a Moog ball joint at Advance. It had alot of blue grease on the bottom. And the spindle piece that sticks out was sitting at an angle. I tried to straighten it up, but I could'nt move it. Is that spindle piece that sticks out supposed to be stiff to where you can't move it by hand?

toomany

Once you move it a few times it will get easier...it's normal for them to be stiff.

joshwilson3

Ok, thanks. I'm probably just gonna go with Moog for the ball joint. I do hear alot of complaints about Moog when searching. But hopefully it will last longer than TRW or Duralast. Maybe when I get the old Moog out, I could return it for warranty or something, and replace the driver side with a Moog as well. Though I didn't keep the receipt as I had a shop/parts store install it. And now the shop closed up, but the parts store is still there.

By the way, when you press in the ball joint. Do you put the boot on the ball joint, then press it in? Or press the ball joint in, then put the boot on top of it?

And probably what I will do, is when I take the control arm to the shop to have them press in the bushings. I'll probably go ahead and have them put grease in the ball joint. That would save me from having to buy a grease gun.

What grease are you guys using? Mobil 1? I'll want to use whatever I can use in the ball joint and for the wheel bearings as well.

joshwilson3

Well, I was able to get that ball joint seated. I didn't think I was going to be able to as I had the control arm jacked up. Then I jacked the ball joint up, but when I let the jack on the ball joint down. The ball joint would just fall back down.

So, when I just had the control arm jacked up. I inadvertently dropped the control arm down too fast. But that ended up completely seating the ball joint.

So, I hopefully shouldn't have any problems driving it 2 miles to the shop to get the new control arm installed.

I had a shop install the ball joint and bushings. But I think I probably should have installed the bushings as it went in the first hole fine, so it was pretty much lined up for the 2nd hole. And I probably could have used that C clamp and ball joint fittings to press the bushing in.

The shop I took it to hammered the bushings in I believe. The small one looks fine. But the larger one isn't 100% seated at one corner. Probably wouldn't matter. But I'm gonna use my C clamp to try and press it all the way on.

Now I'll just have to hope the center metal piece of the bushing lines up with the mounting holes on the car. Sure would suck if it didn't.

joshwilson3

Do you put any grease on the control arm bushings? If so what grease and where? I would be guessing on the bolts that go inside the metal tube in the bushing?

I just went with regular bushings from Autozone.

babadioum

actually they do This was exactly the question I had in my mind. So according to your lead, I need to replace the existing ball joints with standard ones since oversize ball joints are for worn out lower arm fittings, correct?