hey guys i was wondering is it worth the money and what is the benefit of having a tubular k member and tubular a arms..... this is strictly a fun daily driver and not plan on racing.... i have done alot of other suspension mods but i was wondering about these... any input would help...

 

both are good for weight reduction and "bling"

the k will give you better clearances, but some people will argue that they are not built for street use and the stresses street driving puts on them, more of a drag race deal.

I wouldnt bother with the k member unless you need it for clearance purposes if the car is a driver. the stock one is heavy, but its strong and will survive better is you slide into a curb or something like that

a-arms are the same deal, the factory ones are strong and built to last, no need to replace them if yours are fine. But, if you need new a-arms bushings, balljoints, and have to take the arms off to do that work, at least have them bead blasted and paint them to make them look nice, or if you want to treat yourself, pickup a tubular set since they already have new bushings and joints, haven't heard any durability issues with the a-arms either. I have UMI ones on my 86 an they are really nice, but i dont DD the car.

 

I have a tubular K-member and would not buy it unless you run out of other stuff to buy, or are looking for weight reduction. The nicest thing about it is that I can drop my oil pan completely out of the car without jacking up the motor or anything. I have tons of room for that now. The factory one is made of decently thick steel and is heavy but strong. A tubular K-member is not going to stiffen the front end or anything. I got mine because a friend bought that, new carpet, and a Spohn wonder bar for his third gen and then ditched the car so I bought it all for $200. There was no way I was going to pass that up.

Although I will admit it looks damn good when either under the car or looking from up top

 

i dont have any clearance issues... i was just wondering if its worth it to shell out nearly 900 for the k member a-arm combo... but would doing poly bushings on the a arms benefit me any... would that add vibrations to the car.. what will that improve... thanks in advance..

 

poly a-arms bushings will tighten things up a bit over the rubber ones, not a bad idea, or you could get delrin ones with almost no deflection. Think global west has them.

 

i have done alot of rear suspension mods.... but how hard is it to remove the a arms and install the poly bushings.... i am getting a set of bushings from spohn......

 

they need to be pressed in and out, you can rent a hand tool to do it i think, but if you take them to a machine shop they should be able to do it.

 

oh... are the a arms hard to take out of the car... lifting the car off the ground is no problem.....

 

I just did them and it wasn't too bad, do some searching on changing the front springs and you will see whats involved. If you do decided to do this, you should plan on changing springs, ball joints, tie rods, struts if they are worn out because they will all come off anyways. You don't have too, but it is better to get it done in one shot.

Also on the bushings you may want to stick to rubber if it is a DD as the poly will transmit more road feel. All depends on your tolerance for it tho.

 

The hardest part I experienced in removing the a-arms was the bolts; one on each side was seized to the bushing. Nightmare (and fairly common, I'd think). BTW, I have poly throughout. That said, if my car were a DD, I'd go rubber.

JamesC

 

The Spohn tubular K member (with SBC pads) is 9 lbs lighter than the stock K member.. If i didn't need it for pan clearance i'd have gone back to stock one.


Poly bushings on everything is a huge upgrade.

 

Any automotoive shop can press out control arm bushings. The machine shop is not necessary.

 

i i have poly bushings everywhere excluding engine mounts and the car definitely feels tighther than the rubber ones.... i actually like the vibrations and feel.. makes it feel like a go cart and you can feel the road....

 

the J-body guys usually just burn them out, other than being a little dangerous it seems to work well.

 

Long road trips, especially on secondary roads or roads I call "second and third gear" roads, simply wear me out after a few hours, but perhaps you're younger and full of pee and vinegar as they say. Each to his own.

JamesC

 

yeah im only 21 it doesnt bother me at all.. dont take long road trips in this car.. soon enough this will be my weekend car once i get another car so i dont mind poly at all...

 

I have polly though out my car and full suspension done.... exept sterring stuff. it is a hard ride but i love it. yes you feel every bump in the road, every crack but im sure you will like it, only reason why i went with the tubular a arms and k member i had my engine out so figured why not? since everything eles was done and hey it saves afew lbs hehe. but go polly you wil love it

 

I redid the front suspension on my Camaro while it was parked for the winter in '08. I used poly bushings for everything in the front and replaced the balljoints(even though they seemed good) while everything was apart. I like the way the poly bushings tightened up the front end of the car. Yes, I get more bumps and everything from the road, but its not excessive.

I would highly recommend taking the control arms somewhere to get the bushings pressed out and new ones pressed in. I used one of those hand-held balljoint presses that looks like a massive C-clamp and it was a royal PITA. I used a 5/16" drill bit to drill out the bushing around the center sleeve to make them easier to press out. I still had to use the breaker bar with a 24" cheater pipe to be able to turn the screw on the press to get them out. Make sure you place a socket or something in the arm before you press out the bushings, otherwise you WILL bend the arm. Found that one out the hard way on the first bushing I got out. I bent sides of the arm about a 1/4".

Like JamesC, I also had to deal with bolts rusted into the sleeves. I had to cut 2 bolts to get the arms out and messed up the K-member pretty good around the one hole.

One other thing I just thought of - Check the holes in the control arms for the sway bar end links. I will bet they are ovalled out like mine were. I just welded up the ovalled part and then used my dremel to grind the hole round again.

 

Been there and done that. Actually, I'd guess the egging is common on our cars.

JamesC

 

Hey , I figured one of you here might have an answer for my question.
I have a 96 Camaro that I'm swapping from v6 to a 307 out of a 69 Chevelle.
Any idea what is the best K member and motor mounts ?

 

A 96 is not a third gen. You would be better off at another site like fbody.com

 

or maybe camaroz28.com

 

thats a lot of headaches for a 30 that probably has less power than your v6.

an lt1 or lsx would be a lot easier, make more power, and wouldnt require a bazillion hours of fab and custom parts.

 

i say if you can dig up the money ..do it! just shop.. took me 3 or 4 moths of shopping till i fownd a Spohn K Member that had all the goodies on it i wanted. for sale for $400.

then spohn will always give you another $80 off the rest of the parts Just ask. and go to there site more then 5 or 6 times and you will get a pop up add for it!..

getting your car a bit faster with all the small things is what fun is, when drag racing.. to date iv droped over 450 lbs off the car. adding back 190lbs in roll bars and SFC and 9" rear. swaping parts out like this adds up.
sorta like the A/C delt pullys every little bit helps.

like a few other guys have posted just about every thing you do like this makes working on the car more Fun and easy!!

Do what you want. the car will feel better.. be lighter and that means a bit faster. plane and simple.

after all it's all about Fun!..and Bling!

is there a benefit to it, I say ..yes..yes there is!

with My 92 Z28 im looking at mini Tubs Nexed.
it's the last thing i can Do, short of back halfing the car.

Just shop

 

I'd avoid tubular k-members and A-arms. RedRaif had a tubular A-arm snap on her. There's a big thread about it on TGO. The entire weight of the front of the car is gonna sit right on the spring perch welds... You'll have to trust those welds to hold up the weight of the car, and the stock pieces are strong, but flexible. It's their flexibility that gives them their durability. These tubular pieces are better suited for smooth racetracks than potholes, curbs, speedbumps, and poorly paved roads. These types of surfaces are VERY harsh on suspension parts, FAR more than racing on a racetrack.



After seeing what happened to RedRaif, I'd avoid them altogether. I've never heard of a factory A-arm breaking. But I've heard of tubular ones breaking.

Now it's a different story if you convert to coil overs. The spring rates required for coil overs are far, FAR lower than what's needed for our mcpherson strut setups, and the stress is on a different part of the arm that works much better with their characteristics.

RedRaif's failure and the subsequent research and work done by forumites here on TGO in the aftermath made it very clear that most of these aftermarket companies are just overbuilding (or as in her case, underbuilding) instead of actually engineering anything. These aftermarket companies dont sell hundreds of thousands of A-arms a year, and they havent seen hundreds of thousands of miles. I am not convinced their failure rates are acceptable at all, and if notice most of all them specifically say their parts are not warrantied or guaranteed or even designed for street use. They all just copy each other and use thick steel and just assume it's good enough.

For things like lower control arms, and panhard bars and torque arms I've got no problem using their components. But in the front, the a-arms have to support all the weight of the front of the car torqued against the spring and strut. It's just not the best use for a tubular piece in a street car. But that's just my two cents. A lot of people use them without problem.

But I would argue a lot of those peopel are people who use these cars as weekend track cars and joyride cars. There arent hundreds of thousands of daily drivers with these parts so who knows how high the failure rates would be. All it takes is one bad weld... And in the case of the a-arms redraif was using, it wasnt even teh weld that failed, it was the heat from the weld making the tube near it brittle. They redesigned their A-arms but all of the tubular ones that work with a stock style McPherson strut arrangement still just have spring perches welded to tubes. Those things see literally tons of pressure on them during regular driving. Here's an excellent post from the thread about her suspension failure:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/post...8-post234.html
The failure was later played off as a "bad batch" and we were all told that those parts werent intended for street use. You'll find that kind of language at a LOT of these aftermarket suspension companies' websites. I just dont trust them in the front end.


The machine shops around here told me they physically could not do it. They just didnt have the jigs to hold the arm to get a press on it. None of them.

Save yourself the trouble and go to an alignment shop. They know how to deal with suspension parts. I went to two shops and three machine shops one afternoon before I found the alignment shop that could do it. Maybe things are different in your larger towns. But that's my experience where I am in a mid-size town.

 

So you're saying that because the springs perches are on the A-arm rather than say the strut, the A-arm is supporting the weight of the front end rather than simply articulating the front wheels as they go over bumps? Very very interesting. You're right, all the arms and bars of the rear suspension aren't load bearing components. The load is on the axle.

 

Art Morison was making tube A arms long before any of the Guys making them now..

his have been on the street and track for over 16 years+

it's like anything thats made.. some times you get a bad one. same with New cars..lol

i say run the Tube K Member and A arms. run the drag only wheels on the street has well, take care of your car. and you will not have have things fail, (keep an EYE on things has well)

has for my car. it has never seen a wet street. or dirt road. and i dont drive it like the Dukes of Hazzard! (no pun intended)
it's a 10 sec street car that gets out on a friday or satday night for good time.. just today the Big brown truck dropped off a few things


New12.5 to1 427.. check
New Spohn front end.. Check (cars got less then 30.000 on the OD (yes im the only driver) from 92
New baer Brakes ..check

UP on Jacks..check!


(photo taken just secs ago!)

 

Nice looking stuff! I'll warn you about one thing though that I didnt think about when I bought my coilover kit and that is that you have a very limited window of camber/caster adjustments and my springs rub the openings in the wheel wells. I'm thinking about making something though to help with this. I'm thinking about making something that would slip over the strut and drop the spring down so the top of the spring is in the wheel well so I get back all the alignment adjustment.

 

If you run a coilover setup in the front you should have no issues with tubalar A arms as they will no longer be the primary load bearer.

 

I have the 307 and got a lot of parts for it.
Forged internals
New piston rings
Trans w/ shift kit
Shaved Heads
Stage 2 cam
Roller Rockers
Edelbrock Performer intake
holley 4 bbl carb
Posi Rear

It will move a lot faster then the v6 dude, much more potential then a 231 v6.
And I was gunna get the BMR K Member made for that swap.
With the BMR boxed weld in sub frame connectors

Eventually coil overs will be the next step

 

was thinking that this might be a prob.. talked to them about things like this before the order..

was told should be fine with the Tube A arms... if not can always add PA Racing tops to get a bit more Camber/caster. and sell off the trick Sphon tops...lol.

i will say this.. looking at the 14" pro Drag springs, has me thinking..lol
man they are small when sitting nexed to the factry springs.


2 springs for my coil over setup ea sping is 14" long rated at 175lbs ea

 

Yea they are small I bought the road race version and mine came with 12" 350 lb. springs. I can tell you that even though its only a 350 lb. spring, my front end is stiffer than my brothers TA with an Eibach Pro-kit. Its because the spring is at the end of the arch of the control arm rather than the arm having all the leverage because the spring is in so far.

The nicest part about the coilover setup though is the ability to try different springs without having to compress them or worry about them flying while going in or out. You can also get springs from summit for $35 each.

 

I just got done with a bush job on my fiero, and I hang out at a machine shop all the time. They don't use a press 99% of the time. Just a hammer and some hard accurate blows do just fine. you just need a little white grease on the lips. The press can do more damage than a hammer by a long shot. My uppers were 25 years old and no way they would come out because they are tiny and long, lowers are about the same size as my camaro's and they hammered out in 2 blows, and went in in one, I just thought I might let someone know incase they wanted to just do it themselves and have a shop as a back up just incase. Most bushings should come out with just a hammer.

And as to the comment about springs relaying on someone's welds...the whole world revolves around someone's welds. your car is welded. when you walk into any commercial building...someone welded it too. I know one of two people in the US that is certified to weld Crane booms by the AWS. People always weld better than machines if that is what you are were getting at...someone has to set up the machine, and a machine can't call the guy and say.."Ummmm excuse me but I just F'ed up that one....and that one....and that one....and that one." It just saves investors from having to pay 10 Skilled welders to say, "um I just f'ed up." and now they have one person to pay to "watch the machine" f'ing up 10x as much. Such is the world of greed and stupidity.

 

Of course, you're entirely right, but there's a difference between welding on a structural piece and welding on a structural piece where the weld is supposed to support multiple tons of impact forces over and over and hold up 2,000 lbs of expensive hot rod at the same time for hundreds of thousands of miles. The way those things have to be designed to work, I'm just not a fan - unless you go to a coil over setup. But I've got a corner carver so coilovers arent the best solution for me. But you can look at the stock K-member and the stock A-arms and you can see the places they put welds and the places they dont.

Im not going to tell anyone that uses a stock style suspension with tubular A-arms that they made a bad decision. They'll likely be fine. From what I know i'd just be a little leery and I think this kind of info needs to be presented so other people can make as informed a decision as possible about what they define as a risk and how much of a risk they want to take.

 

look at it this way..why would GM pay a guy to weld anything when the can use a 20 ton press to stamp out A arms..thats all they do. just Stamp them out,it's cheap, and easy..

even the Vet has Cast A arms not welded..lol GM is about saving cost when making 10.000 units of anything

thats how it is.. nothing More.. nothing less!

 

I'd bet (if I were a betting man) that most if not all of these aftermarket suspension companies that we deal with have someone welding these a-arms and what not...not machines.

 

machines could not do it. for the cost of a good chassie shop.

you have to set the car on a lift with the race wt on all 4 wheels. driver in.
and check you pinon angle and drive line agle. add that Up.
setting the pinon agle at what you want for a auto or standard. then tack in place, then finnish up all the rest..

 

I'm seeing that there are a couple of you that suggested 'we' should skip the Tubular K-Member, but there wasn't any clear reasons stated. Could you please get more specific?

I'm about to finally install my new 355. I've already rebuilt my entire suspension and delalumed the factory A-arms and have no need to go to tubular Arms. But I do want clearance for headers. Our backroads are extra rough and I don't want things clanking.
(frame connectors, boxed rear, panhard, Hotchkis springs, Koni Yellers, etc)

Again, please be specific as to why I shouldn't switch to Tubular K. Much Thanks, Nitro-Nicky

 

some people have expressed concerns about a tubular k-member not being strong enough to handle the abuse of daily driving/rough roads,... if you look at the manufacturer's info, it'll probably say, "not for street use" or "for racing purposes only". while they typically do that to cover themselves in the event of a failure on the streets, its something to consider. some people will also tell you, "I've been running one on my daily driver for years and haven't had any problems..." so, its kind of up to you but there's both sides of it.

 

the drag cars, show cars,we will always use the trick parts.
we dont drive off road (dukes of hazzard stuff) and with less then 3000 miles a year, we would never stress any of the aftermarket parts out.

we drive on the street, slower them most. and we dont abuse the cars with speed bumps and ricky race type stuff,on the street.

its diff at the track, thats when we beat on the cars, thats what we made them for, we do drive them on the street, it's just if you have a nice car. its not the one thats gets driven every day.
(mine sit for 8 years this last time)

if you want to drive it every day on bad roads, drive slow and check your car out, take care of it, and it will take care of you, thats it, plane and simple.

buy the parts you want, use the parts you want, and leav the bench racing to the other guys

 

When it comes to any hollow tubular structure you have to maintain it's intended structure to maintain it's intended strength. Any aftermarket component manufacturer with any sense is going to say that their part is not intended for street use, number one because we are all morons. ex..So you bumped a curb at the store to get a 6 pack you hear a bad sound but then run in anyways because you're in a hurry. Your three buddies and yourself have a couple and go to meet some ladies being the dumb asses we all are, you (not being over the limit by a long shot) still show off a little and let the engine stretch her legs getting on the interstate, 95mph you merge and hit a little, never before noticed, bump where the new asphalt pavement started. Your control arm collapses under the pressure, and you and your dumb *** lawyer sue the manufacturer out of business because no forensic lab on the planet is going to detect the pen head size dent you made, not even realizing when you went to the store you had compromised the arms structural integrity.... And second, Have you seen our government regulations for road bound cars?

They are great products to purchase if you are in the market. I always consider cost to benefit myself and I would regret spending that kind of money if I could...say play with some nitrous, but that is just me. Cars from a manufacturer are meant to be daily drivers and have min maintenance, purpose built cars require purposed time for attention. If you don't want to have to have something you have to maintain get a Hyundai, if you want a bad as s ride build it with as much "purpose" as possible and try your best to squeeze by on the streets.

Now, sorry for the slightly jacked thread, but, when it comes to welding yall need to broaden your outlook considerably. Every metal and truly almost every none organic thing on this planet is weld/fusible to a stronger and more durable piece than that with which is being joined. You need to look into the different variables of the process. Cooling and preheating surfaces should be your first stop, followed by joining alloys, followed by regulated environments/shielding fluxes/and shielding gasses. Your preconceived notions as to weld strength come most likely from experience with amateur attempts at professional quality. I have seen a man take aluminum foil and weld it with a tig torch, and seen a 16 inch thick slab of aluminum welded with a submerged electrode, and welded in a single pass. Deep sea welding is a 150-300k a year job, where you weld under water at extreme depths some jobs even requiring a diver live 30 days at a time in a pressurized container held under water just to lower decent times. some times you have to have dry ice on the weld surface to maintain a temp at which a metal can be joined, some times you must preheat with a acetylene torch and maintain a certain temp to weld, with both previous mentioned processes, you may only weld 1 inch and have to start cooling/heating the surface for 30 min or more to continue. Welds are like computers, they don't fail people fail.

 

drinking and driving..thats the Dukes Of Hazzard type stuff we stay away from.

but then bumping into anything and not checking it out.see above

 

Mine is going to be abused. I've built it to be abused. I live near the North California Redwoods right by hiway 1. I don't just like to do speed runs up and down the empty coast road day and night- I actually dream of it. I also am a weekly dragracer at my local Infinion Raceway.

My concern is about strength, lightness, and room for the exhaust. When I did the front end rebuild I was smart enough to use the factory A-arms and worked with what was there, as that was fairly obvious. I am much more interested in being 'slideways' than in perfecting this Camaro as a 1/4 mile rocket launcher.

I've had troubles in the past with poor access and fitment for headers and exhaust. I had one truck where I kept cracking the Doug Thorley headers, Doug had me go to his own personal car builder to install the last set of headers he was finally willing to warrenty and they still cracked because of the tight fit issues with the vehicle flexing in hard sideways cornering. These 3rd Gens are supposed to be a nightmare installing a set of headers. What if you had to pull and install 5 sets? It was an experience that has left me somewhat paranoid, so that's why I'm asking directly after the K-member. I've spent 5 years slowly designing and peicing mine together (yes, I'm sloooow!) and I don't want to screw it up now..... Thanks guys!
Nitro