What's the difference in adjustable and double adjustable? What are roto joints? If it says adjustable on car then are the others not adjustable while on the car? Is the relocation setup worth it? Also is tubular worth it? Or help out any?


Btw umi is having a 15 percent off sale.

 

Double adjustable probly has adjusting nuts on each end roto joints are just the type of connector. Not sure about the adjustable on the car part i would assume if they adjust they all adjustable on the car. who knows. Im curious on the relocation setup as well as my factory one is bent because of the exhaust. moving the rear to one side causing rubbing... you will lose strength with more bends but panhard bars dont need a whole lot of strength as they are a locating device. It all depends on how much you want to spend...

 

What do you mean by lose strength? You referring to the tubular question? Also they all say adjustable on the car In info but only one is labeled "adjustable on car" so I'm confused

Here is the link of what I'm seeing
http://www.umiperformance.com/catalo...dex&cPath=6_84

 

For the panhard bars that are bent to compensate for bigger exhaust you will lose strength because it's bent. If they all say adjustable on car then they are all adjustable on the car. But they also have ones that aren't adjustable and are just round tubing with welded on links no adjustment. I'm not sure if we are on the same page here.

 

Okay I looked at that page the adjustable on car ones have two nuts and act just like a tie rod the others adjust at the link end and you probably have to take the weight off the car to get it to adjust properly but I'm not 100% sure . It should just be a matter of loosening or tightening

 

If you want one that is TRUELY adjustable On-Car, get one with the adjusters in the middle.

I got the UMI on-car adjustable one with the adjusters at each end & you CANNOT fit a wrench on to the passenger jam nut with the PHB in place.


So he mounting bolt nut has to be taken off...
The mounting bolt pulled out at that end...
The PHB dropped at that end...
Jam nut on the PGB, at that end, loosened...
Put the PHB bar back up...
Put the mounting bolt back in...
Put the mounting nut back on...
Still hafta loosen the jam nut on the Drivers end...
Adjust the PHB...

Congratulations...Your "On-Car" APHB now fits. NOW...

Tighten up the drivers side jam nut...
Take the passenger side mount nut off (again)...
Pull the passenger side bolt back out (again)...
Dropt the PHB (again)...
Tighten the jam nut...
Put the PHB back up in place (again)...
Put the mount bolt back in (again)...
Put the mount bolt nut back on (again)...

NOW you are actually done!

On-Car adjustable MY ***!!!

 

That looks like a pain.. So what's the best on car adjustable on? Where I don't have to remove anything, i don't care about jacking up and getting rid of the weight but I don't want to have to take anything off to get to it.

 

That sounds like a bad design on UMI's part. My Spohn bar is easily adjustable on the car. You do not need to remove either end. You also don't have to have the weight off the wheels.

To answer the OP's questions.

What's the difference in adjustable and double adjustable?
In UMI speak single adjustable or just adjustable means you have to disconnect one end of the bar to change the length. Double adjustable means in theory you can change the length by just loosening the jamb nuts and spinning the bar. It would appear as though UMI has made this impossible due to their wrench flat location.

What are roto joints?
In UMI speak, roto joints are a pseudo rod end that uses Delrin inserts to remove the metal-on-metal contact that exists in normal rod ends. If they work anything like the Spohn Del-Sphere joints that they seem to have copied, they allow excellent articulation with little deflection while retaining nice streetability and longevity. In my opinion this type of joint is the ultimate for anything but a dedicated race car.

Is the relocation setup worth it?
I assume you are talking about UMI's tubular panhard bar brace. It is not worth it unless you are willing to relocate the other side of the panhard bar on the axle to retain proper roll center.

keeslinger31j,

In all my years around thirdgens I've yet to see anyone make a bent panhard bar. I assume you are talking about the panhard bar brace, which I covered above.

 

This is the one I have (bad choice, IMO).....
http://www.umiperformance.com/catalo...3rl886qvt59sm1

UMI does not make one with rod ends that is actually on-car adjustable. But they have ones with poly bushings, which was not what I wanted. I wanted rod ends on both end.
http://www.umiperformance.com/catalo...3rl886qvt59sm1

Too bad they don't make one with rod ends at both ends, then the adjuster in the middle. IIRC, they used to, but I don't see it listed anymore, unless I missed it.

If they made this one.....
http://www.umiperformance.com/catalo...3rl886qvt59sm1 with rod ends on both ends, it would be "perfect" to me. Put it on with the adjuster at the drivers side end & it is good to go.

 

Relocation brackets on either side will affect the roll center height- BUT, the roll center height has nothing to do with the bar being level. Dropping both sides equally DOES NOT keep the roll center from moving. I would not suggest anyone mess with panhard rod mount points unless they know what they are doing. You can cause a real imblance of a vehocle real quicl. Most thrid gens puch very hard into a corner and not want to turn to begin with- people start lowering that rear roll center without the propr suspension modifications to make that adjustment a worthy one you can find yourself in a real pickle in a panic situation just helplessly plowing straight into someone or something.

Dean

 

Ok, I see what you mean.



So what is a good replacement for stock, the other susp stuff I have is adjustable shocks, lca's with relo brackets, struts, diff cover.

 

I recommend the Spohn Del-Sphere panhard rod.

 

The question is, what happens when the panhard rod is not parallel to the road?

 

1st off, I only addressed this because I saw a miscomsecption of the term roll center. Not trying to bust anyones ***** so please take no offense because none is directed.

With that saud, I will address you question on panhard bar level.

We do not have to be perfectly level to the ground, just within level to about 3* (degrees) max with the chassis side being higher than the axle from the ground. We have a VERY LONG panhard rod so the geomerty of the panhard angle does not change drastically during articuation through suspension travel as a result. If the bar is off much at stagnant height AND combined with lots of suspension travel then YES there could be a jacking and squating issue in the cars handling characteristis from left hand turns to right hand turns in comparison. Based on a more extreme larteral angle of the panhard bar, when lateral cornering forces are applied in the direction of eother pulling the bar apart or closing the bar together, if one end is up more and force is applied then that end of the par mount will jack (if its the chassis side the rear of the car will raise and thus raise the rear rol center also making the car loose). If the force is applied and the mount is lower then the car will squat and tighten the car. A drastically non parallel to the ground panhard bar will create this jacking in one direction and squating tin the oppsite IF AD ONLY IF the bar is traveling into extreme angles beyound about 3* in either direction from level to the ground.

The distance from the ground to each mount bolt center of the panhard rod is know as "panhard split" You really want that to stay within about 3" of each other MAXIUMUM at all times (best to keep suspension travel more reduced through spring rates and shck dampering and keep over all maxiumun more like 1 to 1 1/2" split, but that is for more all out on edge performance ( where the resrt of the car had better be up to par in modifications to even be able to acheive)

Dean

 

No offense taken. I hate sharing bad info. Nice to learn something.

 

Intresting, thanks for all the info. Looks like the umi one isn't a good buy for me. On a side note are aftermarket transmission crossmembers any better then stock? Are front braces for the k member good also?

 

the crossmember alone doesnt need an upgrade necessarily.

the triangular k-member braces are already on most 3rd gens, they came that way from the factory.

 

Yes I get that, what I was asking was are these ones better then stock.

 

Why would people make something that is worse than stock? Truth is you probably won't notice a difference over stock.

The real question is, do you have the need to upgrade right now? The stock one does a good job, and doesn't actually work to stiffen anything up. If you want to buy it to spend money then go for it, or if you're making a ton of power and want a little extra comfort then sure. If you are just looking for things to buy, there are other more useful things to get first. If you want to stiffen up the car, look at a strut tower brace, or sub frame connectors.

 

define better?

they both will hold the transmission up just fine. the new ones will be shiney but most sit lower, costing you a little ground clearance in that area.

if you have no other reason to replace the crossmember other than for the heck of it, dont bother.

 

Yes thats what i was referring to. Will a tubular panhard bar from spohn clear a 3" exhaust?

 

Of course. The tubular pieces are more compact than stock.

 

The only real reason to replace it with an aftermarket one, if you get it for Torque Arm Relocation, with the relocation bracket built on. Other than that? There is no real benefit to doing so.

 

sure will, any panhard will for that matter, it doesn't come anywhere near the exhaust since its mounted under the panhard support brace, which is by the exhaust.

you can apparently fit a 4" pipe over the stock panhard brace and panhard for that matter.

 

I have UMI's Transmission Crossmember. The Reason i changed mine is because the PO changed from the TH200 to the 700R4. He Flipped the old crossmember over and drilled some new holes. The Result was that it rubbed a hole in the Transmission pan. He tried to patch it with Silicone, but it rubbed through that too. Image that...... you would figure that if it will rub through metal, it probably won't rub through silicone. I don't know why that didn't work. Anyhow, I suppose i could have looked for one in the junkyard, but i wanted to make sure it was the right part since i'm new to these cars. The fit was spot on. I also have just installed UMI's Tubular Control Arms and Panhard Bar. Those were also a spot on fit.

 

I use the Edelbrock adjustable panhard bar and it is adjustable on the car, I have been able to make the any adjustments with the car sitting on the ground to center up the rear. It's a nice unit for the money.

 

ill 2nd that. looks good works fantastic! $109 to boot

 

As far as I can tell, they are the same thing that Spohn sells under their term "Delsphere" panhard bars. Check out the videos on Spohn's site for demonstration of how they're put together.

Essentially you're supposed to get the performance of rod ends (no binding, rotational ability) while at the same time get the quietness of poly bushing setups, rather than the loud knocking of a pure rod end design.

 

Except the bearing surface is delrin instead of polyurethane. Which is good for three reasons. Less deflection than poly, less bind, and guaranteed not to squeak.

 

I can't find the spohn double adjustable one on their site.. Is it only single adjustable

 

didnt look to hard then
http://www.spohn.net/shop/1982-1992-.../Panhard-Bars/

there are 5 on-car "double adjustable" panhards here in a variety of bushing setups.

 

I never saw the ones that say double on there. Sorry I'm confused with witch one is best for me since they all say different points and joints and such

 

Double Adjustable is just UMI marketing speak for on car adjustable. You can adjust the length without unbolting either end. All of Spohn's adjustable panhard rods are on car adjustable. Spohn's del-sphere panhard rod is the best for anything other than a 100% race car.

 

Wrong. Not ALL of them are adjustable on the car, unless you think that only having to pull one end loose constitutes "on car adjustable".

#103 will not be, nor any other bar built the same way.

And Del-Spheres are just a marketing tool to convince people that they need to spend more money.

 

Have a link for that part number? 102 doesn't show up on the Spohn website.

Care you justify your opinions on the del sphere joints? Anybody who thinks delrin is not a superior bushing material to poly is simply uninformed. Show me a better joint for a street car.

 

Typo...Look at #103.
http://www.spohn.net/shop/1982-1992-.../Panhard-Bars/

One benefit touted for Del Sphere is the superior flexibility of angles. What angles to LCAs & PHBs go through? Straight up & straight down. No massive angles of multiple directions. So where is the benefit coming from? Rebuildable? Yeah, I'll give them that. But over a year later & my rod ends on my LCAs & PHB on my daily driver are still perfectly quiet. Not exactly noisy either. I think everyone saying they'll be noisy are only coming from people who never had any before. Before I bought them, I was convinced they'll be noisy. I wasn't. Not even over railroad tracks. I've run poly bushings before too. I barely even noticed their ride benefit. I guess they'd last longer than rubber, but lets be honest here....How many people actually keep a car long enough to actually see these long life benefits? Not many, in the circle of people that are into modding street cars. Their cars are usually replaced before they actually start seeing the long life benefits.

I used to make polyoxymethylene plastic parts on a CNC router. Delrin is just a Dupont brand name, which everyone has become familiar with as a generic name for it.

 

And this is why that style PHB is NOT adjustable while on the car. On-car implies just loosening jam nuts & turning the bar. No. One end has to be removed from the car, lowered to loosen the jam nut, reinstalled to adjust it, uninstall that end again, tighten that jam nut, then reinstalled again.

 

103 is on car adjustable. I'm not sure why you think it isn't.

Yes, the suspension articulation is mostly straight up and down, but there is a twisting component as well. With the stock rubber bushings the rubber is pliable enough to take up the twisting motion.

Polyurethane is firmer than rubber and has a tougher time dealing with the twisting, so it tends to bind. Bind can be dangerous, as the bushing can violently unload at the wrong time. Poly is a bad material for suspension bushings. I'd rather have new rubber bushings than poly. Granted panhard rods undergo a lot less twist than the control arms.

Delrin allows for basically zero deflection. Without a spherical design, the bushing wouldn't work. Just like metal rod ends. The beauty of the del-sphere design is it combines the best attributes of delrin and metal rod ends. It allows for a very smooth articulation and minimal deflection while retaining quiet operation and long life.

I understand you have had success with your rod ends, however most people have problems after 10,000 miles or so, even on good rod ends. Now 10,000 is 5-6 years of driving for me, but I hate replacing parts multiple times. I also hate noisy suspension. So the del-sphere panhard rod is $15 more than the rod ended bar. If $15 is that big of a deal to someone, then they should just replace the bushings in the stock bar, with rubber replacements.

 

Stephen, we've been over this before. Your bar is UMI if I remember correctly. Spohn's bars do not have this design problem. I can confirm Spohn's bars can be adjusted on the car.

 

there is no "design problem" on either manufactures design. Both of the panhards, Spohn and UMI, with just the rod ends one each side can be adjusted on the car, and the locknuts can be loosened/tightened. I have the same one on my 86 (UMI) and have no issues at all with getting to the nuts. I just dont use a adjustable wrench for the lock nuts. my box wrench fits just fine, maybe a little tight, but works just fine for me. I have delt with Spohns version here too, and again, no problems.

it may or not be the case, but depending on how much the bar had to be adjusted to center the rear, the rod ends may just be in further than on other cars. If there is room, you can always adjust the ends on the body mount side out more, and the axle side in more, to gain some room if you are having issues.

 

I'm not sure what Stephen's problem is then. Maybe some brands use rod ends with a longer threaded section that pushes the jamb nut out further for easier access. I doubt it though.

 

Talk is cheap, pics are proof.

Show me a pic of how the jam nut on the passenger side of a Spohn PHB is adjustable installed. They are the same design & I don't see how the Spohn PHB is any different.

 

Because I showed you an actual photograph of why. The only way it could be is in my explanation below.

Regardless of how long the bar has to be adjusted. the distance between the 2 mounting points is the same on all cars.

If the bar is short enough & the rod end shanks long enough, then the jam nut could set further in towards the center & reached easier. Is the Spohn PHB shorter & the rod ends shank longer?

 

A thought.....

Anybody with one of these adjustable types (Spohn/UMI/other brand) on a 9-bolt axle instead of a 10-bolt?

I have a 9-bolt & curious if the mount could be different on the 9-bolt axles. You'd think it would be the exact same mount just welded to a different axle but.....???

I've tried a non-adjustable, standard box end wrench & it wouldn't work either, so I guess there goes //<86TA>\\'s wrench theory.

 

all wrenches are different, and its not a theory, its what i do and it works.

you may have a point, and i though of it too, maybe the UMI bar without rod ends is a little longer than Spohns, so clearance my be a bit different. For that matter, there are dozens or outfits that make a panhard bar with the 2 rod ends, either out of swaged tube, aluminum stock, fabricated tubing/adapters, directly threaded DOM, ect, and i havent seen issues like this elsewhere.

For ***** and giggles, if sombody wants to grab a measurement of the Spohn panhard body length, i can get the UMI and we can compare and see if there is any merit to this debate on length

 

do you have a issue getting the wrench on the axle side too? curious.

the mounts may be a little different, but they cant be too much different and defiantly have the same ID.

 

there are production tolerances, so tihngs can be different, also depending on wear on the chassis and flexing elsewhere from curb hits and such. the bar will be a little longer/shorter on different cars.

 

Thats not a picture of the 103. You said yourself you have a UMI bar. Anyway I have no idea on the length of the threaded section of the rods ends. Merely a thought.

I'm 3000 miles from home and can't take a picture right now. Even if I was home I wouldn't waste my time getting the shot setup. You will just have to believe 86TA and myself that we were able to do it. Why would we lie about this? I believe you that its not possible on your car. However you are the first person I have heard out of thousands of people that have aftermarket phb's that has had this problem.

By the way, my car has a 9 bolt. Here is a pic of the Spohn Del-Sphere phb.

 

I'll measure mine when I get home later this week.

 

Ok so from what's I've edelbrock makes the best adjustable on car one correct? I can't find if they make a single or double adjustable one. Do they only make one? The same one pops up everytime I search.