Did things a little backwards but now im getting to my suspension.

88 Firebird LO3. Engine will remain a 305. Goals: Increase handling abilities, not more for track use but just a real nice handling street car. Want to increase the amount of power i put to the wheels, i know suspension plays a big part.

Parts so far

UMI wonderbar

Adjustable Panhard bar(more drivetain related i think?)

UMI LCA with relocation brackets

UMI 22mm Sway Bar

UMI CC plates

Koni Yellows

GC weight Jacks(850/200)


Still need:

UMI SFC(coming soon)

Thinking a simple 4pt Roll bar


and of course all new bushings and what not. Know im forgetting some stuff, so can i get some advice and direction.

 

your list sounds solid, however the control arm relo brackets are not really needed for this application unless the car sits really really low. Its not a bad thing to have the rear control arms angled up slightly to the axle, if not level.

factory sway bars are very cheap and available in a large variety of sizes, they will work for almost everybody. Uprading to poly bushings on the bar mounts and endlinks will help a lot. No reason to spend a forture on aftermarket bars when stock ones are just as good, and cost a fraction of the amount. Not to take a sale from UMI of whom im a supporter, but thats the truth.

since you should be taking the front apart anyway, replace any worn out steering parts, put new bushings in the front control arms, and new balljoints. You can opt for tall balljoints to lower the car a tad and help keep the front end geometry in a more ideal location over just lowering with springs.


Dont forget good tires. All the good parts in the world will mean nothing if your tires dont grip the road. And consider the brakes too.

 

I agree here, love UMI from what I've seen so far on the parts I've got from them. As an example however, I scored a 36mm hollow swaybar from thirdgenranch (who supports TGO) for 15 bucks+shipping. Rears I can't say as I kept my original WS6 23mm rear bar. I wanted to upgrade the 32mm in the front. I have to say, can't beat that deal. Keep an eye on his site they come up occasionally.

 

The only other item i would suggest if you don't have them already is sub frame connectors. I have the UMI ones waiting to go on my car before spring hits. The UMI ones look pretty solid, and another plus is they are pretty active here on this forum and aren't far away if you have questions or need help. Nice to see a company support their products that way.

 

Have you read the stickys at the top of the Suspension forum yet? If not, start there. When done, read them again. Then start planning on your plan of action. No need for an adjustable Panhard Rod or LCA relocation brackets if your car isn't lowered. Ditto what's already been said about the sway bars.

 

Thanks for the info. Im going through the stickies now.

Good info on the swaybars. Ive got a WS6 so i think ive got the better sway bars if im not mistaken? ill keep my eye out for a 32MM sway bar.

As for the relocation brackets im going to run the Eibach pro kit on all corners, so i think it they would be a good idea.

As for the brakes, im running the "LS1" brake set up right now in the front, and standard drum in the rear.

I forgot about the SFC, on my UMI list. Ive got some research to do.

So new list.

Koni Yellows (front/rear) around $800 maybe less

SFC UMI $200-300

Relocation brackets UMI $99

Eibach Pro Kit $250?

Factory Sway Bar $?

Bushing kit $200?

Just replaced the balljoints and what not with MOOG brand items when i did the LS1 brake swap.

So, list sound better? i start purchasing/installing this month.

 

Your new list looks good. Aim for a 36 mm sway bar up front if you don't already have one.

 

Looks like I've got a 36mm bar up front. One less thing to buy.

 

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HSS-CHESTR033/

with this steering kit alone...you will love it and so will ur ride.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/BMR-KM006H/

shave some weight off with this K member

QA1 makes great shocks n struts for thirdGens. coilovers are way to expensive and complicated for rookies and really arent needed for our Gen. but if ya want em, hey buy em.

 

Think the QA1's are better than the Koni Yellow's?

 

Hey guys. Thanks for the UMI shout outs! We do our best to give a premium product at a fair price. Lately I've been pushing the "made from start to finish entirely in our building in Philipsburg, PA" as well.

As for QA1 vs Koni. Koni is considered the ride quality leader with a heavy infusion of performance and longevity. QA1 is popular for tunability and drag racing performance. For a daily driver, Koni's tend to get more love in the long run.

Your list looks pretty solid.

Let me know if you need any help on final selection.

ramey

 

Would love to buy a set of Koni's through you guys lol.

Putting in an order for a set of black LCA relocation brackets now and some LCA's.

Serious on the Koni thing though, if you can get them for the going rate which is about $820 for all four yellows, id love to get them through you.

Also, for the Caster/Camber plates. Stupid question but i should just wait and install those with the new shocks/struts right?

 

Hey WilliamSilver.

We can get you in the Koni's for that price (after we confirm exact part numbers of course). Did you order the other stuff yet?

C/C plates can go on whenever. They work equally well on the stock struts or the Koni's.

Hit me with an email or call tomorrow to order. PM is fine as well.

Many thanks

ramey

 

I PM'ed you.

Just got some UMI LCA's from the girlfriend, sweet present lol

 

Nice. Thanks for choosing UMI for your project.

I got your PM and am working on the reply.

Oh, and girlfriends ordering UMI = awesome.

 

$500? Hotchkis is out to lunch on their pricing. Spohn sells that for $300.

 

true, on about everything they make too

 

you get wut you pay for. id rather spend a lil extra to make sure i have quality products. if thats not wut you want of course your gonna hate. and while ur hatin you will be replacin...all the broken cheap parts you want. either or, the guy was asking for ideas and opinions. i didnt make any remarks on anyones ideas now did i? like for instance ur crappy SPOHN or UMI

 

dude over half that stuff on your list you could have gone to founders and gotten that stuff ALOT cheaper and its the same stuff.

 

If this is a true WS6 street car, take off the big rear swaybar and put on the 3rdgen V6 rear swaybar.
It will handle the bumps thru corners without hopping sideways..

 

I agree and disagree.

For many parts, there is a noticeable difference in performance and longevity. A Vigilante converter costs about twice as much as a TCI converter. But it will last for years. Whereas a TCI will break and take out your transmission in short time. Costing more money and more headache.

I paid a bit more for my 11x12" stacked plate transmission cooler, rather than a cheapo 4x6 tube and fin cooler.

My Konis should last for 20 years. Monroes won't.

But for a package of tie rod ends, a center link, and an idler arm, unless this stuff is made out of titanium or chrome moly, I don't see the benefit of Hotchkis's stuff over other companies'.

I like Global West's Del-A-Lum A-arm bushings. But I wouldn't drop $600 for their torque arm that "only" requires drilling 10 holes to install the darn thing.

 

That's not entirely true. I've never used founders but I have used UMI and they truelu do make great products. You do get what you pay for. I trust UMI products and i trust them as a company. I work in parts and it's not common you fond a company like that. Ill gladly pay a little extra.

As for the other suggestions, would it be best to rebuild the steering before the suspension (it's not horrible )

 

What do you mean?

 

^^^ Typically the panhard bar would be what improves rear end stability on a corner. Say you're doing 75 mph on a long sweeping corner on a highway. There are tiny rocks on the road. Or maybe a crack in the pavement. With a stock setup, the rear end of the car will feel a bit fidgety. The front will be OK, but the back might want to hop and shuffle a tiny bit to the side on you. An aftermarket panhard bar (they're all better than the stock one) will be what helps you here.

Now sway bars are in my opinion, the hardest suspension part to describe. They tend to come in matched sizes. Front/rear being 30/19, 32/21, 34/22, 36/24 mm. Or some close combination of those. The V6 cars will come with smaller bars. Both because the weight of the car is less and they tend to be less performance oriented.

Now do larger sway bars improve performance all the time? Not necessarily....For a V8 car, going to the 36 mm front bar works great all the time. Matching that up with a 24 mm bar in the rear most of the time will result in an improvement. The caveat is that people who have full out suspension cars who have upgraded everything will sometimes move to smaller rear sway bar in an effort to have the car turn smoother. So they'll start out with 34/22, then upgrade to 36/24, then after all their mods are on the car, go to a 36/22 or even a 36/21.

The above paragraph happens most often with people who have HEAVY DUTY spring rates. The ones with 1000 lb front springs and 250 lb rear spring rates. They'll tame the sway bar size as a balancing act to having the super stiff springs. I'd rather have bigger badder sway bars and milder springs. Because sway bars do nothing for you when you're going straight down the road. They only affect your ride during cornering. But heavy duty springs will ride harder over bumps, potholes etc at all given times.

Further complicating things is that sway bars are very much personal preference. It's not like comparing Bilstein vs Gabriel shocks. Everybody will say the Bilsteins are better. There is no debate there. But sway bars come down to personal preference.

You can also get the benefit of improved sway bars just by replacing your stock sway bar bushings with aftermarket poly bushings. So a 34/22 with better bushings will act much like a 36/24 with stock bushings.

I've talked to several people who all say WOW, I had no idea upgrading the sway bars by 2 mm would make such a huge difference. My GTA came with the 36/24 from the factory. But GTA's are the heaviest of the third gens and came with the better suspension options. So it makes sense than they would come with the biggest sway bars. I don't run super heavy duty springs. My rear springs are the Moog 5665 stock height springs (107 lb rating). With the Konis set on the softest setting (0 clicks) and the 5665 springs in there, the back end is plenty firm.

 

My car is a 89 formula 350, 17x9.5 wheels, 1.5ish lower springs, bilst shocks with rodended rear panhard bar and control arms. (factory polly endlinks)
The reason I run the V6 bar on the rear (on the street) is the expansion joints and bumps on the roads in on/off ramps.
When the car was stock with the rear 24mm bar and now even modded it did the same thing in a corner, as soon as the rear hit the bump it would hop to the outside of the corner. If Im under power it will sometimes sping the tires and slide sideways if I'm not careful.
Now when I have the V6 bar on it will "walk" over the bump and has more control/ traction. It is smoother 4 sure.
If I go to the drag strip I put the big bar back on the rear and remove the front bar.
If I wana go play on the (closed course race track) I put the 36front and 24rear bars on because the track is smother.
I'm not to good at explaining things so I hope you understand what I'm doing

 

whats your beef? chill out.

you can buy whatever you want, and the OP can do the same. but there are only so many ways to make steering parts, and suspension parts, and when somebody sells them for almost 2-3 times more than what other quality people offer, red flags go up. Moog is one of the most highly respected and trusted manufacture for steering parts and that hotchkis kit is almost 2x what the same parts from mood would cost (minus tie rod adjusters or course), but those are 30 dollar parts anywhere else for good solid ones.

And have you even looked at the prices hotchkiss charges for 3rd gen torque arms and rear control arms and panhard? outrageous to say the least.

 

you can get parts that look similar for a better price, but they are not the "same stuff". "same stuff', would indicate the same people make the parts, exactly the same way, and one person sells them for more. this is not the case, 2 different companies, 2 different parts, and they are made differently.

 

Lots of good information in this thread thanks for that. Learned a few things.

UMI came through again on the LCA and LCARB. Easy install and great products. There customer servic
Is great.

+1 for UMI. Caster camber plates coming this week. Then konis and eibach

 

If you didn't order the Konis yet, I'd wait. I've been hearing rumblings around the web about them having their annual sale soon. Just a thought. I'm waiting to do anything til I know for sure on whether or not they're doing the sale. Should know by March as thats the general start date I've been hearing.

 

LOL i got some as a wedding gift I loved it but the wife wasnt to happy

 

lol thats a great wedding gift IMO.



Ive been doing some thinking on shock choice. I tihnk the KONIs are some of the best shocks offered for our cars, but im thinking that since this car probably wont see a road track at all, and will mostly see twisting streets that the Tokico Illumina's would be a better choice?

The Koni's are about $820

The Tokico's are about $590

And im wondering for my purposes(some mountain passes and some twisties by the coast) if the tokicos will be ok? any input?

 

==== smart

 

Quality shocks on the street, especially adjustable ones, do nothing but improve ride quality and comfort. I'd recommend Konis to anyone daily driving a thirdgen.

 

Thanks for the input. I also think the konis are the best bet but wanted some outside views.

But are you saying that for the mountain roads the konis and tokico will ogre no difference in performance?

 

Im saying get the Konis and dont look back. If you are racing, or you're just driving to work every day, the Konis will make you happy either way.

 

I've been told that people upgrade from the Tokicos to Konis and they've wished they went with konis in the first place. I played around with the idea of getting anything under Konis and then decided, if Konis are the best, then do it in one shot, get them as opposed to changing blown shocks or upgrading later. If you are considering them I would just get them.

 

Yeah ive decided to order them next month. Pretty excited. Konis and the Eibach Pro Kit i think will make a good choice.

Ordering my caster/camber plates from UMI now. Would it hurt to put these on before i put the Konis on?

 

Hey William.

What are your alignment plans? Theoretically you could put the CC plates on and get it aligned. When switching to the Koni's and Eibachs the alignment should remain serviceable but might require a quick check to verify things are still ok.

Mechanically though, there should be no problem CC plating now and Koni/Eibach later.

Nice talking with you the other day, by the way.

ramey

 

Nice, then ill install the plates now and practice with the settings. Just didnt want to ruin these by throwing them on older shocks.

Good question about my alignment plans, to be honest im not sure, still learning. Id like to adjust the camber a little negative and see how that improves front wheel traction, and play with caster settings to see the difference.

Any input Ramey?

Was good talking to you too the other day, nice to know theres still good business owners/operators in this business that care about there customers opinions

 

Hey William. Thanks for the kind words. I can give you some alignment tips.

Toe-in is stability. As you increase to in, you increase stability. 1/16" is good to start with. 1/8 inch in is super stable and self cancels well but scrubs speed a bit and wears tires a bit. For auto-cross you can run straight up or even 1/16" toe out. Toe out helps turn-in but at the expense of a bit of wandering on the highway.

Camber is when the tire tilts in toward the "cam"shaft at the top. A quarter degree is good for the street. Almost a full degree or more gives better lateral grip but at the expense of tire wear. With an iPhone or angle finder you can easily tune camber between street and track.

Caster is when you move the strut rearward like "casting" a fishing rod. Adding caster adds stability and steering feel. Four degrees is good for street, seven degrees is good for high speed stability, self canceling of the steering wheel, and steering feel. The problem with adding too much caster is during turn-in the tire gains a ton of negative camber. This can cause the car to understeer on corner entry because part of the tire isn't on the ground.

Once you get your street vs race settings figured out you can easily adjust the CC plates when you get there.

A race alignment feels pretty zippy for street driving but the end result is tire wear. That's why knowing both gives you the best of both worlds.

Mechanically there's no reason to not change the CC plates out now.

Whaddya think?

ramey

 

As far as the tie rod ends, center link, idler arm, and ball joints, go with Moog Problem Solver. I have Moog steering components on every car that I own, and I have been nothing but pleased with their product. (And I'm by no means cheap either, I run Koni Yellows, full UMI Chassis stiffening, C5 Vette brakes, and a lot of other goodies on my car, but you can't beat Moog for their suspension parts.)

You could pay a lot more for Spohn or Hotchkis stuff, but I don't think you'll get any better quality than the Moog stuff, maybe even not as good. I just pulled the front suspension apart on my Formula after 20,000 miles, and the Moog steering parts still looked and felt like the day I put them on.

Just my $.02,

-cal30sniper

 

Thanks for all the info Ramey. After reading this i actually got hooked and have been doing a lot of research online and reading a couple books(actually helpful) on suspension/chasis design and set ups and learned a lot. Appreciate the insight.

I waited so long to reply because ive been waiting on my UMI CC plates, coming in on March 1st.

Sniper appreciate the input, i work at Oreilly auto parts and we stock MOOG in our suspension line, so ill for sure be using MOOG products for my steering.


Another question:

I THINK i want to run coilovers in the front to help with cornering, but would like advice.

Two kits

PA racing $300(around that) for a front set up,225-300lbs springs

Or

Spohn Pro Touring $595(seeing if they will ship without the CC plates since i have UMIs and lower the price, probably not)

Ill be using KONI yellow shocks no matter what, but for pure corner carving will coilovers in the front benefit me over simply using Eibach springs, KONI yellows and the CC plates?

I know theres other factors, sway bars etc but for now i just want the best shock/spring/coilver? set up i can get for the money.

Suggeestions?


Ryan from UMI gave me a little insight already and said that the coilover set up SHOULD be ok with the UMI plates but will limit the adjust-ability.

Help?

 

Hey William. Handling is addictive, isn't it? That's nice you're reading up on handling. It is an ongoing process. I still learn every day.

Ryan was correct in mentioning about the limited adjustability with coil overs (caster and camber). And I'm not just saying that because he's my boss. Any package that puts the spring up through the inner fender reduces CC adjustment because the spring hits the inner fender through hole. Still more than stock though.

We are developing a coil over system on our house IROC right now. It uses up to a 14" spring for drag racing and a 12" for handling.

We still need to evaluate handling of coil over vs big spring. Keep in mind NASCAR road race cars use big springs just fine. And with a strut car you're turning on the actual load bearing spring. A coil over car does save about 20 lbs on the nose.

More discussion soon.

Ramey

 

You could go with the ground control set-up best of both worlds thats the way im going next time around.. http://www.ground-control-store.com/...hp/II=20/CA=67

 

Thanks for dropping in Ramey. Enjoy Vacation?

Any idea when this coilover set up comes into production? lol would be nice to keep all of my suspension parts from you guys.

I didnt know that the big springs were still used today in a performance sense.

obeymybird ,I actually JUST saw the GC weight jack set up and after speaking with them over the phone for about 20 minutes i think its my best option.

As much as i would like to say that coilovers would be the "end" all here i cant.

The UMI CC plates lets me adjust my caster/camber settings, the Koni yellows allow me to adjust "dampening"(right term?) settings on the shocks and the weight jacks would allow me to run Eibach springs on all 4 corners and adjust ride height from 0-2.5 inches.

Sounds like the best bet for my money for this project. If UMI releases coilovers in time for the Camaro project though, ill be buying the first set lol

 

Yes an the GC set up lets you pick your spring rates thats a plus, an UMI is great i got a order ready right now there just over an hour away from me going there next week or so an picking up some nice goodies..

 

Any suggestions on spring rates for this application?

i was thinking 250-300 for street use/autocross/corner carving/not rolling hopefully

 

I called an talked to them the other day super nice to deal with he said 850 up front and 200 in the back.

 

Really? He wouldnt give me spring weight suggestions until i was ready to order. 800 sounds pretty stiff up front? anyone else have any insight on this?

 

are you talking the weight jacks or the coil overs? coilovers will use a lighter rate because of where the spring is and how its being loaded.

for conventional springs, the stock iroc springs are a little over 700 lbs in the front. 800 fronts are not anything crazy, FWIW im using 1050lb in my car.