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Update: Found a crazy deal on the Spohn 502 for convertible for $189 delivered from Colorado Speed (link). So I guess the thread is now just discussion.
So, I probably should have done this early on, but now that the car is pretty much mechanically sorted, I am ready to stiffen it up.
I am looking only for drastically improved rigidity (i.e. I don't care about performance improvements)
Square tubes have better geometry to compensate for the missing roof but the better round tubes are made of vastly superior steel.
Opinions? Anyone driven verts done with both?
Maybe the results are great with either?
From the various threads I've read it seems that no one with round are disappointed. And round has a more consistent support "group".
Maybe this could be in the vert forum but I thought I'd open it up.
Last edited by Tootie Pang; 05-30-2017 at 12:15 PM.
I have used the Spohn SFC's on my old 88 vert, my sisters '91 vert and my fathers 92 'vert with great success. Completely different cars before and after.
I also went a step further on my 88 and installed the Alston inner SFC's that I bought from Top Down Solutions.
The car rode like it had a hardtop at that point. I also was running a built 355 w/vortec heads, t56 and a 3.45 geared 9 bolt, lowered on an eibach pro-kit.
I hear you. The Spohns are welded all along the outer rail. In the shop's defense, they also had to R&R the trailing links front bolt, custom bend the passenger side cross bar to fit around my cat, and I had him hit it up for about seven welds each side. Still, yeah, a little sticker shock but it's increasingly hard to find a shop that has a wheel lift and is OK with the welding and light fab work, and understands the importance of proper fitment, chassis set, and attachment. Though my wallet hurts, I feel like I got away with something.
I hear you. The Spohns are welded all along the outer rail. In the shop's defense, they also had to R&R the trailing links front bolt, custom bend the passenger side cross bar to fit around my cat, and I had him hit it up for about seven welds each side. Still, yeah, a little sticker shock but it's increasingly hard to find a shop that has a wheel lift and is OK with the welding and light fab work, and understands the importance of proper fitment and attachment. Though my wallet hurts, I feel like I got away with something.
oh ok got you didnt know the verts were different like that. Nice to hear that it made a noticeable difference though!
Years ago before I could weld I had a shop charge me $45 to weld an AN bung on a radiator for my upper radiator hose. They didn't even TIG it for that amount, they just ran a MIG spool gun over it.
As for the round vs square debate
All things being equal (wall thickness, metal composition, weight) the square will be stronger in the cardinal directions but the round will be stronger in every other direction. This is why roll cages are round tubing. People will still use square tubing for the bottoms and sides of cages and then round for the roll hoops just because it is easier to mount anything to a flat surface. And that is why square is more popular for SFC-- It's easier to stitch weld (or fillet weld) a square tube to a floor pan than a round tube.
What shop did you take your car to? I don't think there's a real defense for charging $400 for this job honestly. Not wanting you to feel bad, just wanting you to think twice before using that shop's services again in the future.
Yesterday I had these same subframe connectors welded in to my 92 TA vert, along with some Alston inner subframe connectors, and had Lakewood lower control arms and a energy suspension torque arm bushing installed too. All for less than you paid for just that. And as far as I know, All outer subframe connectors require you to remove the front bolt of the LCA's to install them and custom bending that y bar near the cat shouldn't have taken more than 5 minutes.
Originally Posted by Tootie Pang
I hear you. The Spohns are welded all along the outer rail. In the shop's defense, they also had to R&R the trailing links front bolt, custom bend the passenger side cross bar to fit around my cat, and I had him hit it up for about seven welds each side. Still, yeah, a little sticker shock but it's increasingly hard to find a shop that has a wheel lift and is OK with the welding and light fab work, and understands the importance of proper fitment, chassis set, and attachment. Though my wallet hurts, I feel like I got away with something.
Yeah, I've kind of had it with feeling like I am getting ripped off by welding-enabled shops. I don't think the job took him more than four-five hours but I can't say for sure. He had it for a couple of days. What shop did you use? I am always looking for good references. It was tough to find a shop in my area that even get the concept of properly installing SFC's.
Last edited by Tootie Pang; 07-24-2017 at 01:34 PM.
You are correct about the cross section advantage of square and I was indeed heading that way however, I found out that round tube is made of an entirely different alloy, much stronger than typical square tube steel. So I considered both and went with the lowest price ones I could find for the vert that looked like they mounted in properly.
Originally Posted by Tibo
And that is why I learned to weld
Years ago before I could weld I had a shop charge me $45 to weld an AN bung on a radiator for my upper radiator hose. They didn't even TIG it for that amount, they just ran a MIG spool gun over it.
As for the round vs square debate
All things being equal (wall thickness, metal composition, weight) the square will be stronger in the cardinal directions but the round will be stronger in every other direction....
Based on my research, prior experience and parts availability, I believe the Spohn's with y bars are the best option for third gen verts.
Originally Posted by Tootie Pang
You are correct about the cross section advantage of square and I was indeed heading that way however, I found out that round tube is made of an entirely different alloy, much stronger than typical square tube steel. So I considered both and went with the lowest price ones I could find for the vert that looked like they mounted in properly.
What shop did you take your car to? I don't think there's a real defense for charging $400 for this job honestly. Not wanting you to feel bad, just wanting you to think twice before using that shop's services again in the future.
Yesterday I had these same subframe connectors welded in to my 92 TA vert, along with some Alston inner subframe connectors, and had Lakewood lower control arms and a energy suspension torque arm bushing installed too. All for less than you paid for just that. And as far as I know, All outer subframe connectors require you to remove the front bolt of the LCA's to install them and custom bending that y bar near the cat shouldn't have taken more than 5 minutes.
Where did you have your Alstons installed? I'm in OC, just purchaed some UMI SFC's and I'm looking for a place to get them installed. So far I've had 1 quote that was $850+
Where did you have your Alstons installed? I'm in OC, just purchaed some UMI SFC's and I'm looking for a place to get them installed. So far I've had 1 quote that was $850+
For $850 you could buy a wire welder or stick welder, a welding mask and gloves and a bunch of metal to practice on. Then you could buy four jack stands and a jack and do it yourself and still have enough money to go to the bar and enjoy a beer.
That place just didn't want your business so they threw out a really high number. Guys in small businesses do it all the time.
Tootie Pang... or anyone else... are your SFCs visible from a side view like the red UMI 3 point bolt SFCs on the 4th gen in this picture are? Let me know if they are, or are not and what brand SFCs you have. TIA
I have the UMI connectors. If you get down level with the bottom of the car they can just barely be seen. However, when you're down that far you also see things like exhaust, rear end, A arms and other suspension components so it's kind of a moot point. If you don't want them to be as obvious, just get them in black.
I have the UMI connectors. If you get down level with the bottom of the car they can just barely be seen. However, when you're down that far you also see things like exhaust, rear end, A arms and other suspension components so it's kind of a moot point. If you don't want them to be as obvious, just get them in black.
It’s nice to hear from someone that has the UMIs. I got a hold of a picture of UMIs installed on a 3rd gen and they don’t show as much as on a 4th gen.
Tibo, when installing your UMIs was the exhaust dropped or cut like in this video?:
blacksunshine'91 are the Global West on your '91 GTA, or your '92 T/A Convertible? I looked on Summit and the Global West 904 SFCs they have say: “Will not fit convertible models.”
I find lots of the SFCs will not fit convertibles and read some require stock floor pan modification.
If the Spohns don’t show on Tootie Pang’s IROC I assume they’re a smaller diameter than the UMIs.
The Global West SFCs are on my GTA. I have a set of Alstons and just bought a set of Spohn SFCs (p/n #502) for the convertible. Both sets are waiting to be installed.
It’s nice to hear from someone that has the UMIs. I got a hold of a picture of UMIs installed on a 3rd gen and they don’t show as much as on a 4th gen.
Tibo, when installing your UMIs was the exhaust dropped or cut like in this video?
My exhaust setup stays inside the transmission tunnel so I could totally obstruct the spaces between the inner and outer subframe where the stock exhaust was routed. Had I had the stock exhaust it would depend how tucked up it was if it had to be dropped or not. The side bar that came with the connectors is small so you are supposed to be able to run it with the stock style exhaust.
Round vs square debate is a rabbit hole you don't want to go down at TGO. It will turn into a huge armchair engineering debate. Both sides will make good points. In the end you will go with Spohn anyway. Good quality and good price.
I had Mac style Sfc initially (in my vert) then added Spohn. Can't say how the Spohn piece does alone, but I don't bend the car in half anymore going up steep driveways at an angle
I finally got a set of SFCs installed on my car. I initially purchased UMIs, but after seeing pictures of them installed I purchased a set of Sphons. It took me a while to find a shop to install them. Like Tootie Pang said: "hard to find a shop that has a wheel lift and is OK with the welding and light fab work, and understands the importance of proper fitment, chassis set, and attachment", but I did. Wending Works in Orange did a great job installing my Sphons.
05-30-2017, 11:50 AM
