steves

Opinions, which one of these are going to perform like factory? Or are there any other suggestions?

Jetmeck

iTrader: (3)

bumper

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

None of those will "perform" like "factory".

Those 2 words don't belong in the same concept. Military intelligence, civil war, feminine logic, jumbo shrimp, masculine sensitivity, ... factory performance.

Factory shocks are designed to minimize the number of "harsh ride" complaints, and they are bought from the low bidder. Not sure who that/they is/are/was/were. They're CRAP. Can't think of a SINGLE car, not from GM or anybody else, that they are functionally detectable past about 10,000 miles.

Closest thing to "factory" "performance" in shocks, would be Gabriel. Pretty much, nothing more than some dead weight, although they do execute the function of limiting rebound travel.

Monroe is better but still not ... "performance". They had a product line a few years ago, can't recall the name, that was a bit better; but yerbasic Gas Matic is only a notch above "factory".

I haven't run the KYBs but they're about one more notch up.

Koni is as good as it gets. Their product line goes all the way to full racing in some applications. (not so much NASCAR or NHRA type stuff but more SCCA) Not comparable AT ALL to "factory".

What are you REALLY looking for? Did you ever drive one of these cars when it was BRAND NEW? (like, less than 10 miles on it) Do you REALLY want to go back to THAT?

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Well....there were those Bilsteins in the back of every IROC-Z......

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

The AGX's are actually quite good. 4 way adjustable in the front, and 8 way in the back.

Their products are more known in the Import world. KYB is Japanese.

Maybe not at the Koni level. But 1/3 the price and I think the best value for sure. Very good ride quality and adjustable to your liking. Definitely way better than "factory" ride quality.

We have installed many AGX's. Never had a customer complaint on a set.

GD

vinny R

Another vote for AGX. Love the adjustability and for the price some good performance to boot.

Sofa described the quality breakdown like only he can!

steves

What I am looking for is close to factory as I can get. I have had AGX's and the standard KYB's on two different W-bodies where I went all out on the suspensions. The standard ones worked great and I don't see the need for the extra settings. I am not going to road race or autocross my Camaro it's going to be a cruiser that I'll most likely drive a 70 mile round trip to work a few times a week on nice days. I have driven plenty of new ones 30 years ago. I don't remember 3rd gens having bone jarring rides.

steves

You can still by new Bilsteins for the back because they make them for 4th gens.

Jorlain

iTrader: (4)

It's the springs that determine the stiffness. The shocks just dampen the bounce.

SlickTrackGod

Very few people in this world have an understanding of shock dampering and spring rates- This post is a fine example of that- all of you just trust me and take my word for it. Want a factory ride like it was when new? then find a brand new car.Ride quality goes so much further than shocks and springs.

Ill give you all one more little clue. A monroe shock for a Cutlass Olds is not the same valving as a Monroe for a Datsun B210...etc.

SlickTrackGod

Now that I have more time, I want to come back into here and elaborate more on this subject to help educate everyone about shocks.

When a company like Gm or Ford, etc makes a new platform for a vehicle and they figure out its weight, they figure its motion ratios, they figure out what tire sizes and ultimately which tire brand and sidewall makeup they will use for sales of the new vehicle- and then of course they have brand new bushings and components and no metal fatigue of parts and chassis with a new car....all of which have flex, distortion, bounce, recoil all working together and/or against eachother in motion. So from here they continue with ride testing and researcha nd development of the final product. At this point they may work with a few different options on spring rates and sway bars based on also having a few choices of wheel/tire packages. This is why often you see a car with options on shock purchases when you try to buy for your specific vehicle. Was it a base model? was it an SS? 1LE in this case? etc etc. Each of these options will often require a different shock valving package to get the desired ride quality and performance value from a new car platform.

These big auto companies work with companies like Bilstein to develop the correct feel for that particular vehicle.

SO- what I am getting at is not all koni's are vavled the same, not all KYB's are valved the same etc etc. You take a koni designed for a cutlass Olds and put it on a Cadillac and the shock will feel like crap because the car is much heavier an d will bounce around everywhere. You reverse that and the cutlass will ride harsh because it is lighter. BOth with a Koni, or with a KYB. You have to have the Koni or the KYB, etc for YOUR PARTICULAR APPLICATION. Which is better? depends on what tires (brand and size)you have, what bushings, what spring rates, swaybars, how old is your chassis and metal fatigue (flex and distortion of the metal)- did you change your wheels to something much larger wider and heavier then intended for the vehcile when the engineers designed the platform? ...what is your weakest link? meaning what componants on your car are still old and worn adnn not up to par causing a change in fequency of the suspension bounce and recoil when it hits road imperfections?

So now you have a better understanding. Its a crap shoot unless you keep the car in 100% perfect stock form. Konis are valved to be put on lets say a factory IRO with factory sized wheel and brand tires with aprox 50,000 miles on the chassis. They are valved to give a better performance feel of the car with all of that factored in. They are also adjustable in rebound settings so you can kind of taylor the ride a little better to suit wear and driver preferences.

I always preach the best- Koni yellows. for standard over the counter performance replacement shocks and struts. Yes there are better out there with race specific applications, but in a generic box form you can not beat Koni with any other of the popular brands on the market. Bilstiens are crap in my book. I own some currently on a vehicle (non 3rd gen) but bought them only as a replacement to an OEM and they are not any better than the OEM when it was new.

steves

I appreciate all the feedback. I understand the concept of how springs and shocks work. I have modified enough suspensions and have done both adjustable and non adjustable shocks and struts. Any of the choices available are going to be better than worn out parts. After this whole discussion I narrowed it down to the non adjustable KYB's and Koni's. I wish there was some resource showing the valving of the factory specs and these options.

SlickTrackGod

Non adjustable KYB's are simply put a gas charged shock with linear valving. What that means is the harder they are pushed or pulled the stiffer the react (Yeah I know that doesn't sound appropriate...lol, but I do not have a lot of choices with words to describe things)

A koni is much more advanced valing techniques as are most quality shocks- hence why they cost more. It is a "digressive" valving which means at higher piston speeds the pressure bleeds off so as not to be harsh. You pretty much get the quality you pay for. Koni will control low piston speeds without harsh high piston speeds. A KYB will not control the lower piston speed (or translated into lower chassis movements and/or wheel movements) in order not to build to greatly for the higher piston speeds. You get poor low speed dampering.

There is not even a comparison between your two choices. One is caviar, the other is garbage.

steves

Thanks for the explaining the differences between the two. I'm going to go for the Koni's when I find the right price.


https://www.tirerack.com/suspension/...1&autoModClar=


What do you think of this set up?

chazman

iTrader: (4)

I can understand you saying that Konis are better than Bilsteins.....but crap?


Obviously, Bilsteins are a step up from most OEM units of the day certainly in their design and construction.

SlickTrackGod

Bilstein for what you pay for them dollar for dollar are crap. might as well just buy Monroe. (Im talking the standard "performance B4 and B6 shocks) Of course their high end racing stuff matches Koni's level of performance, bu the over the counter replacements are a waste of good money. You get the same level of shock with a Monroe. I have them on an S10 truck and they were way over priced for the **** value they yield. The Bilstein brand has gotten as bad as a Chinese Nike shoe. BUying them is like voting for a politician simply because of name recognition.

In other words, I took off the worn OEM shocks and put on Bilsteins about 6 months ago. On a scale of 1-10 I had a 3 and went to a 4. These wornm OEM shocks started life as a 4. So does a Monroe. I overpaid for what I could have bought $30 each in a monroe that I paid $80 each for this crap. Why did I buy them? My gut told me better but that was the most performance brand name I saw in an ove rthe counter replacement and everyone here rant and raves about Bilstein. I knew better but tried them anyways thinkling I was going to only get a 6 where I wantted an 8. Talk about disappointing when all I got was a 4

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Maybe you're generalizing?

I can't imagine GM chassis engineers specifying Bilsteins specifically, on '85 - '90 IROC-Zs, with as you freely admit, much greater cost than the typical lowest bidder shock, if the folks who signed off on them weren't convinced they added to the car's chassis dynamics.

skinny z

Are not the AGX adjustable in both compression and rebound? Not individually adjustable (as in two distinct adjustment *****) but the rates in both directions are addressed with respect to a single setting?
Not to hijack but I'd like a strut/shock that will provide reasonable ride qualities while on the street (like my Monroe's) while having the capability of allowing for tuning when at the drag strip.
(I've started a thread about this subject but the interest is here at the moment).

skinny z

In case anyone has a contribution to my question, my thread is located here:


https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...eet-strip.html

SlickTrackGod

Your question is kind of vague?

You can;t imagine GM contracting with GM? They actually did. The mass produce a specific shock developed to the valve liking of the Camaro's. They were the rear shocks on the 4th gens from what I know. Many many companies are sub contracted through GM to make their componants like Comp Cams, Moog, Johnson Controls, Bose, NGK. etc etc

They build a specific generic valved shock with the values that best meet the test car ride quality through development with the final tires, wheels, bushings, weights etc of the platform to be sold to the public. THis is huge business to do a mass one off product for a new car line.

SlickTrackGod

Yes they are linear adjustable in both compression and rebound simultaneously. The other shocks that do the same are the Rancho 9000's

I run Ranchos on the rear of my Vetruck in parallel to some Koni race shocks 2 shocks in each wheel of the truck- 4 front 4 rear) The Konis are the primary shocks and I use the Ranchos with an in-cockpit compressor against the piston to depress it and increase the linear valving resistance so when I carry loads int he rear I can increase damper force of each overall value of compression and rebound to help control the increase weight of the payload.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Not a question, but a statement. As you say Bilsteins cost more. So why would GM spend the money on them if they are just as crappy as any other lowest bidder shock.

What I'm saying is GM did spend the money and some GM chassis engineer, circa 1984, signed off on that cost, because they found their construction/design/performance to be worth it.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Well...If we're going to play my piston control is better than your piston control, then....

Generally speaking (quality similar): A twin tube (Koni/KYB/Tokico/Tein/GAZ) will always lag
behind a monotube (Bilstein, Penske) due to less displaced volume for overall vehicle control, mid and high-speed damping is crucial. This is where monotubes shine. They don’t generate the high internal pressures that twin tubes have to
for the same force. Monotubes dissipate heat better
and stay more consistent mile after mile than twin tubes.


Factors that matter most to ride quality and handling:

1. Piston design - defines the valving curves possible
2. Piston seal & friction - self explanatory
3. Bleed valving - controls the initial shock responsiveness control
4. Valving control – in most cases a stack of special shims that deflect & define the oil flow through the piston
5. Adjustability range - To tune or adjust for very different situations like track & street
6. Rebound & compression bleed over - how much does one adjustment affect the other valving
7. Body & overall shock design – affects how it manages the pressure, control & responsiveness
8. Stiction - pressure required to get the shock to initially respond
9. Internal rod/shaft pressure - affects initial shock responsiveness

Items 1, 2, 3, 4 play the biggest role in the valving curve. Items 5 & 6 define the range & accuracy of tuning. Items 7-9 define how well the shock can keep the tire gripping the asphalt over irregular surfaces.

Other things matter too, like ...
• Is it rebuildable?
• Is it revalvable?
• Parts availability?
• Tech support?
• Customer service?
• Warranty?
• Return/repair policy?
• And lastly initial purchase price & TCO ... total cost of operation.

Why I like RideTech monotube shocks (Fox):
a. They run larger bleed valve orifices
b. Combined with stiffer main valving from the piston & shim stack
c. Inside an extremely well designed shock
d. Provides the best balance of ride comfort over irregular surfaces & bumps … and handling control with heavy cars in cornering situations.

Other perks or benefits of their design are:
e. Wide range of effective adjustability
f. Very low pressure bleed over
g. Fully rebuildable
h. Easy to revalve for different curves

And mine have a million mile warranty!

KMK454

Bilsteins