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Seth,
thanks for the info.
what is the GM set up that will work with the hawks 17inch GTA wheels?
I have talked with Bruce a few times, he said the baer 13 inch kit would work,
but i'd like to use all GM stuff.
here is a pic of my 91.
thank you.
On a 17inch wheel your best bet for GM is probably the 4th gen LS1 brakes.
Hey guys, hopefully I can clear up some questions on these spindles as I've been doing the test fitting on my own 1992 Camaro RS.
The spindle is designed to run in place of the OEM spindle and adapts the modern sealed wheel bearing packs to it. I set them up for the C7 hubs as they run the same spec wheel studs and bore size for most all rotors you'll need. Another bonus is that the GM C7 Hubs are made by SKF so they are really reliable OE quality pieces.
I have been talking with Scott at BigBrakeUpgrade.com about these for a while now. He will have them available on his site as well as on the Hawks site. The Spindle is designed to have a modular/bolt on caliper bracket. We will have a drop down menu on the website for all the caliper/rotor combo's you'd be looking for (pretty much most options currently available on BBU's website). You wont need to run any of your conversion brackets you already have on these spindles. The Hawks spindle and brackets are designed to mount the calipers directly to them no adapters needed. Depending on what brake combo you go with will determine what size wheel you need, same as it's always been. You wont be able to run any factory 3rd gen brakes on this though as they are designed with the rotor and wheel bearing all in one. You'll need to run something like factory LS1 brakes or a small profile Baer kit.
In the pics my car is running a set of Gen 6 1LE calipers with a set of C7 2-Piece Slotted rotors. (This setup will require an 18" wheel.)
Closer look at the entire setup.
Here is what they look like in an 18" Weld RTS wheel with High Pad Clearance for reference.
The spindle bolts on just like the OEM spindle using the lower ball joint and the factory strut location. The wheel bearing is positioned with a billet spacer to keep the same track width as the factory third gen had. If you have custom wheels already you should not need to change them to fit. Alternatively, if you are looking for a deeper front wheel you can push the bearing further in and run it without the spacer... this lets you have a deeper wheel but will not work with factory spec'd wheels.
Right now I do not have any images of the steering stops. We do have a pad machined/threaded to be able to bolt a steering stop onto the spindle along with the caliper brackets. These are still being machined and I can update you guys as I get those installed.
The location of the outer tie rod IS pulled in closer to the center of the wheel. This was done to provide improved Ackermann and bump steer geometry.
This is also something that has been highly mentioned by guys who want to try and run a rack and pinion.
I do not have a picture at the moment but I will get you guys some more when I get a chance. This also helps get the outer tie rod away from the rim when running wide wheels. My car has 18x11" front wheels and the tire rod was VERY close to the rim.
Hopefully that clear up some of the questions surrounding these. Let me know if there is anything I missed and I'll try to get you guys some more pics as I finish the install and get the remaining website images.
The spindle itself is "chunkier" as some have put it to provide extra rigidity. The goal was to reduce deflection, provide sharper/controlled steering and improve braking control.
Most guys running a setup like this will have extra wide/sticky front tires and be pushing their cars to the limit. This creates a tremendous amount of force on the front steering.
There is no "drop" built into these spindles. There are a lot of good options available for lowering the car already available. Providing a stock height and a drop spindle would drive up the tooling cost making the finished products quite a bit more costly.
Can you show a picture of the outer tie rod to wheel clearance? You say it'say it's close, I'm assuming there is no room for bump steer adjustment?
Can you show a picture of the outer tie rod to wheel clearance? You say it'say it's close, I'm assuming there is no room for bump steer adjustment?
I think you maybe mis understood me. The outer tie rod clearance was close on my 18x11 with the stock steering arm length. With the shorter steering arm of these spindles you have much more clearance.
I think you maybe mis understood me. The outer tie rod clearance was close on my 18x11 with the stock steering arm length. With the shorter steering arm of these spindles you have much more clearance.
I see thanks for the clarification. I can't wait to see when they are available and the pricing.
The location of the outer tie rod IS pulled in closer to the center of the wheel. This was done to provide improved Ackermann and bump steer geometry.
For those of us running a taller ball joint and a bump steer kit. Does this mean we'll be able to get rid of those items?
Also, is the steering feel and response changed/ improved with either the spindle and/or the hub?
@Seth@Hawks I've been bugging Tyler about these for a while and he said I'm on the list for when they come out. Its the last piece of my build before I can get my Forgelines done and make sure everything clears, then blow the car apart. I cant wait.
Thanks for the update!
Didn't know there was pricing and that the website got updated.
1. Are the 6th gen Camaro calipers basically the same as the C7 Z51?
2. Why all the different hub options? Any benefit from one to the next? Do they all have the same M12 wheel studs?
3. Anyone know how to remove the letters from the OEM calipers? C7 or Camaro 6th gen.
I was considering C7 calipers, but the hubs are back ordered. If the calipers are basically the same as the Camaro, and the Camaro units are in stock hubs, then I may go that route.
Still feel like there isn't enough information on the Hawks site with regard to all the hub options.
Would be a home run if I could order it ALL from Hawks, spindle, hubs, calipers, rotors, pads, etc.... Like a drop in solution.
This is a big step in the right direction, but for me at least that is the dream. I really dislike the idea of spending big $ on stuff that I still have to piece together from a few sites.
It looks like Seth put a bunch of new info on the product link. It mostly boils down to what calipers & rotors you plan on running and the ease of hub compatibility, along with availability of the hubs as of right now. The C7 hubs are difficult to find at this moment so I think he's trying to find other options that will work. I think they're trying to accomodate as many brake choices as possible so it gets more complicated. I cant tell if the Z51 calipers are different than the 6th gen calipers, but the rotors are.
I still plan on using a two piece CTS-V2 rotor with the C7 hubs if I can find them. I will have to open up the center of the rotor hat to 70.3mm but then I can swap off-the-shelf rings. I can still run 5x120.65 wheels front/rear instead of the 6th gen hub which is 5x120. My 9" rear end is 5x120.65 and I dont really want to change axles now. Plus I have a feeling these wheels will find their way to my Ty in a few years when I want something new for the Camaro.
Excited to see the spindles getting closer and closer to prime time and go on sale.
Will really be excited when I see them on other people's car (mainly since mine won't be ready for some time).
Hope by then the hubs will be sorted out and I can get a more full understanding of all the details needed to make an informed purchase.
As the owner of a '15 C7 Z51, it would be nice to have hubs, rotors, pads and calipers all be common between those two of my cars. Really like the way those calipers look too.
RockAuto currently has cheap hubs for $66.79, and Moog units for $158.79.
In my experience over the years fixing all kinds of cars, paying for the premium stuff is always worth it.
Quality of grease, seals, steel, press fits, etc... Is always better. All made in China.
As a design engineer that has been at it for almost 20 years, country of origin has very little to do with quality.
It is what the spec is that is asked for and if the quality assurance department allows junk thru. Some cheap places are cheap because they don't have a QA department at all.
If you are tossing this much cash at an old third gen... toss a few more and get quality bearings. Chances are they will be lifetime parts for most of us.
From: Franklin, KY near Beech Bend Raceway, Corvette Plant and Museum.
Car: 1992 Pontiac Firebird
Engine: 5.0L L03 TBI
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 2.73
Re: Hawks new spindles
Originally Posted by dennisbernal91z
All made in China.
As a design engineer that has been at it for almost 20 years, country of origin has very little to do with quality.
There is no such thing as China.
It's The People's Communist Republic of China. There is only one party and it is the Chinese Communist Party. The People's Liberation Army is the military branch of the Chinese Communist Party.
Every US Dollar you spend with Communist China is a money spent to buy the bullets the People's Liberation Army will use someday to shoot your kids dead with.
It's pretty cool that there are so many new products coming out that are utilizing modern Corvette wheel bearings.
A huge improvement over older bearings forsure.
I even see floater axle kits that use them now.
I thought about changing wheel bearings, but a stock car chassis builder convinced me otherwise.
I'm gonna likely build a other 3rd gen and make a double wishbone. I'm tired of dealing with struts wearing out with race tires And near zero camber gain.
Likely I'll go with C6 ZR1 hubs and Billet spindles to work with my MK60 ABS.
Hard to beat a modern wheel bearing.
It's The People's Communist Republic of China. There is only one party and it is the Chinese Communist Party. The People's Liberation Army is the military branch of the Chinese Communist Party.
Every US Dollar you spend with Communist China is a money spent to buy the bullets the People's Liberation Army will use someday to shoot your kids dead with.
Nice fear mongering lil bro. Wow
Originally Posted by 88Greg
So I ask again, Where are the spindles themselves made ? Proudly cast and machined in USA or ?
Does it really matter that much?? You do realize that almost everything is outsourced to China then touched up for "quality assurance" then bump the price 5x. You've got more Chinese parts on your car than you realize. We all do
From: Franklin, KY near Beech Bend Raceway, Corvette Plant and Museum.
Car: 1992 Pontiac Firebird
Engine: 5.0L L03 TBI
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 2.73
Re: Hawks new spindles
Originally Posted by thatsupnow
Nice fear mongering lil bro. Wow
Just to clarify my comment wasn't about Hawks spindles. It was in relation to the other guy's comment about the hub bearings and stuff being sourced from China. I just want people to think Communist China every time they see and hear China.
I told no lies. I told the future.
And this is the end of my comments about this subject because I don't want to derail the thread and I can see the future of where continuing down this path ends. If I wanted to end up there I could get there a lot easier and faster by starting a thread about who's G-o-d is the best G-o-d and why all other religions suck.
BTW, these have been available to pre-order for a couple of weeks now, and the prices are on the webpage. People's questions should be answerable by all of the details on the webpage too.
Hubs aren't $300 each. $300 is for the pair, which is a good price for two. The dropdown menu reads: "(2) ... (Adds $300)", and when you click on it, it only adds $300 to the total price.
Other hubs are listed to present different options if people don't want to wait for or can't get the C7 front hubs, or for using brake rotors for 6thgens (without having to enlarge the center bore for C7 hubs, but the bolt pattern is only 120 for 6thgen hubs, not 120.65). The C7 rear hubs are listed because they also fit the front, just that they're splined inside for the axles, which doesn't affect the front. But all of the details are spelled out for the different hubs.
GM/SKF front hubs are due this month, supposedly. The knuckles aren't even available yet, so there's probably no reason for anyone to panic about their availability. Also, auto parts stores have their own brands and standard brands currently available: Auto Zone, O'Reilly, Advance Auto/Car Quest; Rock Auto has some; Summit and Jegs; ebay has dozens of brands and off-brands currently available too. So there are plenty of hubs available right now, and prices range from inexpensive to expensive.
And I really hate to go here lol, but the knuckles are, supposedly, manufactured in the US by an American company, and they're cast, obviously, not forged. Granted, American company doesn't necessarily mean American-made, but $800 sounds like an American-made price, considering the 2ndgen cast knuckles from CPP are $300 and made overseas.
Hawks is kinda known for being on the upper side of reasonable pricing for their products too. Look at their 3.5” TOTL exhaust or the 8.8” axle, or the cast aluminum repop wheels they sell as an example. Maybe it’s because it’s all made stateside, don’t know, just know they’ve always been a little expensive. I’m not trying to denigrate Hawks for their products or pricing or making a statement of whether or not these new spindles aren’t a good product or worth it, but the price does put them low on the list of things I need done to the car. It does make the item a bit of a competition piece only, not for the average street guy whose money doesn’t tend to burn holes in their pockets.
I see the knuckles and hubs as a way into other brake options.
I don't currently have any spindles for my current build so this sort of fixes that at the same time.
Used spindles these days seem like they were pulled up from the Titanic, and the new Hawks third gen spindles don't have a wheel turn lock out. Something I don't want to build this car without.
So I am left with these. If they let me easily use C7 Z51 calipers and rotors, then that is also a win. Before this I was considering Baer setups. (Baer kits now come with the Hawks third gen spindles, not this new style).
Just to clarify my comment wasn't about Hawks spindles. It was in relation to the other guy's comment about the hub bearings and stuff being sourced from China. I just want people to think Communist China every time they see and hear China.
What can you buy that isn't made in China? If people (americans) weren't so cheap we'd still be making stuff over here.
I see the knuckles and hubs as a way into other brake options.
I don't currently have any spindles for my current build so this sort of fixes that at the same time.
Used spindles these days seem like they were pulled up from the Titanic, and the new Hawks third gen spindles don't have a wheel turn lock out. Something I don't want to build this car without.
So I am left with these. If they let me easily use C7 Z51 calipers and rotors, then that is also a win. Before this I was considering Baer setups. (Baer kits now come with the Hawks third gen spindles, not this new style).
Pretty sure Baer makes the new reproduction 3rdgen 1LE spindles that Hawk's sells. So if those are the spindles in Baer kits, then that's why.
Regarding these new knuckles and hubs, the C7 brakes you want are about as natural as the combos get. You could almost say this whole product was designed specifically to fulfill your wishes for your 3rdgen: 3rdgen-style knuckles, designed to accommodate C7 hubs, available with brackets for C7 calipers. All you'll have to do is get your own C7 rotors and C7 calipers, and you'll have exactly the same brakes you have on your C7. I screenshotted Hawk's webpage with the dropdown menus filled in to show you:
And since BBU will be selling these too (as a Hawk's representative), and he already offers complete C7 front upgrade kits (but for 3rdgen OE-style spindles), you can order the knuckles, hubs and brackets from BBU, and he can probably assemble the same kit for you with C7 calipers, C7 rotors, and hoses. Obviously, the price will be different than what he's showing because you'll be including the new knuckles, hubs and brackets, but you'll be getting everything at the same time, from the same place, possibly even fully assembled, exactly like you want it. I suspect most the existing kits he offers are listed as "out of stock" because such new parts are expensive to stock, so he probably assembles them to order. C7 Z51 Complete Kit
________________
But because these new knuckles and all other brake parts are pretty pricey, Hawk's/BBU has made these available so people can just buy parts at a time, as they can afford to, rather than having to part with $2,000-$3,000 all at once for complete kits. That will be the easiest way for most people to assemble their upgrades.
Personally, I don't see brake options as the biggest benefit of these knuckles. It's wheel options and fitment. No long spindles to account for when calculating adapter/spacer thickness, or when having wheels custom made to fit, especially wheels with modern positive offsets, where flat center caps wouldn't have fit because of the long spindles. Now any wheel and offset, classic and modern, can fit without having to account for that long spindle, so buying wheels will be simpler, and options will be nearly limitless.
And BBU will still be there with the big brake upgrade parts and kits that made him the GOAT in the first place. He was there for us then, and he's still there for us now with both, classic upgrades and the new knuckle upgrades.
Mine came in today... that steering arm is SHORT!!! It's all beefy, but short! I already have a Turn One 10:1 box so this is going to be interesting!
The spindle looks taller, I'm sure I dont have them lined up perfectly to compare, but it may lower the car a little... maybe?
Also, the billet spacer takes a while to get on right. The bolt pattern apparently isn't symmetric. I tried every way and then flipped them over. I eventually got it, but I'm pretty sure the combination i have now didn't work the first few times.
I went with the C5/C6 brakes and SKF Xtracker hubs. The caliper bolts came with washers, but it looks like the washers should go between the carrier and adapter, not under the head of the bolt. The carrier fits either way without rubbing, but the washer centers the carrier on the rotor
The included caliper bolts are also allen head, but i dont have a socket big enough, lol!
Mine came in today... that steering arm is SHORT!!! It's all beefy, but short! I already have a Turn One 10:1 box so this is going to be interesting!
The spindle looks taller, I'm sure I dont have them lined up perfectly to compare, but it may lower the car a little... maybe?
Also, the billet spacer takes a while to get on right. The bolt pattern apparently isn't symmetric. I tried every way and then flipped them over. I eventually got it, but I'm pretty sure the combination i have now didn't work the first few times.
I went with the C5/C6 brakes and SKF Xtracker hubs. The caliper bolts came with washers, but it looks like the washers should go between the carrier and adapter, not under the head of the bolt. The carrier fits either way without rubbing, but the washer centers the carrier on the rotor
The included caliper bolts are also allen head, but i dont have a socket big enough, lol!
That shorter steering arm looks like it would work better for the manual rack and pinion guys
I see the knuckles and hubs as a way into other brake options.
I don't currently have any spindles for my current build so this sort of fixes that at the same time.
Used spindles these days seem like they were pulled up from the Titanic, and the new Hawks third gen spindles don't have a wheel turn lock out. Something I don't want to build this car without.
So I am left with these. If they let me easily use C7 Z51 calipers and rotors, then that is also a win. Before this I was considering Baer setups. (Baer kits now come with the Hawks third gen spindles, not this new style).
I have a set of spindles off a 92 rs that do not look like they came up from the titanic if your interested.
Pretty sure Baer makes the new reproduction 3rdgen 1LE spindles that Hawk's sells. So if those are the spindles in Baer kits, then that's why.
Regarding these new knuckles and hubs, the C7 brakes you want are about as natural as the combos get. You could almost say this whole product was designed specifically to fulfill your wishes for your 3rdgen: 3rdgen-style knuckles, designed to accommodate C7 hubs, available with brackets for C7 calipers. All you'll have to do is get your own C7 rotors and C7 calipers, and you'll have exactly the same brakes you have on your C7. I screenshotted Hawk's webpage with the dropdown menus filled in to show you:
And since BBU will be selling these too (as a Hawk's representative), and he already offers complete C7 front upgrade kits (but for 3rdgen OE-style spindles), you can order the knuckles, hubs and brackets from BBU, and he can probably assemble the same kit for you with C7 calipers, C7 rotors, and hoses. Obviously, the price will be different than what he's showing because you'll be including the new knuckles, hubs and brackets, but you'll be getting everything at the same time, from the same place, possibly even fully assembled, exactly like you want it. I suspect most the existing kits he offers are listed as "out of stock" because such new parts are expensive to stock, so he probably assembles them to order. C7 Z51 Complete Kit
________________
But because these new knuckles and all other brake parts are pretty pricey, Hawk's/BBU has made these available so people can just buy parts at a time, as they can afford to, rather than having to part with $2,000-$3,000 all at once for complete kits. That will be the easiest way for most people to assemble their upgrades.
Personally, I don't see brake options as the biggest benefit of these knuckles. It's wheel options and fitment. No long spindles to account for when calculating adapter/spacer thickness, or when having wheels custom made to fit, especially wheels with modern positive offsets, where flat center caps wouldn't have fit because of the long spindles. Now any wheel and offset, classic and modern, can fit without having to account for that long spindle, so buying wheels will be simpler, and options will be nearly limitless.
And BBU will still be there with the big brake upgrade parts and kits that made him the GOAT in the first place. He was there for us then, and he's still there for us now with both, classic upgrades and the new knuckle upgrades.
You make some great points about wheel design and selection. This product seems like it was designed just for my build! Super cool. Plan on a deep dish 3 piece wheel right now, but not set in stone. Options seem infinite so very hard to nail down a final pick.
I have been checking RockAuto for new calipers. Also cross checking eBay for used stuff.
Think I will go with new for this build, just need to decide color and make the final decision on caliper. Was considering going with big boy Z06 stuff, but think the added cost isn't worth the look, for what this build is going for. Also could look into 6th gen Camaro stuff since I think that is super similar to the C7 Z51 components. That being said, there is a cool factor to have both cars have the same exact calipers, rotors and pads.
Once I get the car off my rotisserie, and then the next phase will be front suspension + brakes. Will be an exiting time. Maybe in a couple months.
Mine came in today... that steering arm is SHORT!!! It's all beefy, but short! I already have a Turn One 10:1 box so this is going to be interesting!
Just eyeballing the pic, it looks like there's about 1" of drop built into the hub. That should help guys with wider front wheels to stay off the strut
Eyeballing the steering arm, it looks 1-1.5" shorter. That should increase the ratio for stock drag link guys. 4th gen rack guys are probably still SOL, but MII, T-bird and other long travel racks may have full swing
Curious to see how the steering geometry would be affected. Bump steer and such
Just eyeballing the pic, it looks like there's about 1" of drop built into the hub. That should help guys with wider front wheels to stay off the strut
Eyeballing the steering arm, it looks 1-1.5" shorter. That should increase the ratio for stock drag link guys. 4th gen rack guys are probably still SOL, but MII, T-bird and other long travel racks may have full swing
Curious to see how the steering geometry would be affected. Bump steer and such
I'm really liking that design
I'm on 18x11s and although my wheels are almost touching the struts that's not my tightest area. When turning the wheel hits the back of the control arm or the tire touches the frame in the front. So if these lower the car, that'll put the back of the control arm closer to the wheel.
I have access to a bump steer gauge, I'll try to get before and after measurements.
Can't wait to see people installing these with various caliper options. Then seeing what it all looks like lock to lock.
Speaking of lock to lock. See the (stock) spindle on the right has that bit that hangs off the edge. That is the steering stop.
Where is the steering stop for the new spindle? Shouldn't there be some sort of feature hanging off the toolbox as well?
Lock to lock is typically controlled by the steering box. My 10:1 box was about the same as stock but obviously turned the spindle more. With the 18x11s I had to extend the steering stops to minimize (not eliminate) the rubbing.
Here's another view of the spindles. I read somewhere they were still working on the design, but it looks like they'll bolt up to the bottom. I'll just assume they'll send me the steering stops separately when they're ready.
Just eyeballing the pic, it looks like there's about 1" of drop built into the hub. That should help guys with wider front wheels to stay off the strut
Do you mean the spindle or around the hub itself ? From Seth below.
Originally Posted by Seth@Hawks
There is no "drop" built into these spindles. There are a lot of good options available for lowering the car already available. Providing a stock height and a drop spindle would drive up the tooling cost making the finished products quite a bit more costly.
Originally Posted by Pocket
Eyeballing the steering arm, it looks 1-1.5" shorter. That should increase the ratio for stock drag link guys. 4th gen rack guys are probably still SOL, but MII, T-bird and other long travel racks may have full swing. Curious to see how the steering geometry would be affected. Bump steer and such
I'm really liking that design
Looks like my egimacated guess was right after all. You think one should be able to dump their bump steer kit with these or need to keep it?
Do you mean the spindle or around the hub itself ? From Seth below.Looks like my egimacated guess was right after all. You think one should be able to dump their bump steer kit with these or need to keep it?
Originally Posted by Seth@Hawks
There is no "drop" built into these spindles. There are a lot of good options available for lowering the car already available. Providing a stock height and a drop spindle would drive up the tooling cost making the finished products quite a bit more costly.
My eyeball calipers may be a little off, but those don't look the same
What about the strut mounting point? It looks taller. Would that raise the car, cancelling out the drop on the hub?
No that would not raise the car. The height is controlled by the spring, the lower control arm, and the K-member pocket, in conjunction with the wheel mount to lower ball joint distance. (What was imaged above).
Raising the strut mount slightly would just remove some of the strut's useable swept distance.
I recently recieved my spindles and have been test fitting them on my car with the C7 setup. My question is about how far out the tierod adjuster have to be to reach the spindle now. Im not comfortable with it and plan to replace mine with a lo get billet version
Mine are on. Couple things -
1. I am using the CTSv2 brakes. I had the center of the rotor hat (two piece) opened up to fit over the C7 hub and it worked despite the slight difference in bolt pattern
2. The stock outer tie had minimal thread engagement so I changed that out for the UMI bumpsteer kit and that worked
3. The QA1 proformas needed ~1/16" material removed at the strut mount area on both sides. Seth said thats basically the only strut they didnt test with, my luck ha
4. Had to remove just a little bit of material around the caliper mounting bracket to clear the CTSv2 caliper
Everything else worked out well. Now I can finally get my wheels made.
