Here's the deal guys, we all know people love knocking TBI so I'm set out to prove some people wrong and hoping some others from the board will join me....The challenge is this, a 13 second timeslip on the stock heads...it's gotta be an LO3 motor and naturally asspirated, becuase we all know some of the power adder guys have been into the 13's....other than that anything goes...im hoping to be there real soon since i went high 14's on the stock cam and torque converter...i have an LT1 cam and throwing in a 2,600 stall TC...let me know if anybody's gonna try this with me...later guys

 

i realy would love to try but im afraid of putting that much money into my car thats only worth 4,700 dollars and if it gets totaled like my 89 rs did im screwed. Insurance only gave me base value they dont realy care how much u spent modding the car.

I think the farthest ill go into it is headers after the gears go in

 

damn, i was gonna say i was there, with a carb of cours.

 

We'll see how the coming months turn out for me, but I think I'm up for the challenge. Porting of the heads are fair game, right?

I'm gonna toss in an additional restriction for thought... no NOS... let's see how this turns out.

This will not be who can toss the biggest/expensive parts onto an engine.. its who can build a complete car top to bottom. It's who can match the correct parts to make the most power possible and use it the most efficiently...

 

RWHP is RWHP doesnt matter how it gets to the rear wheels

 

Here we go again with the is "NO-2 cheating or not" discussion. I kind of like that restriction; besides, NJ Speeder would be in the 13's if he shot go-fast gas. Isn't he already like in the low 14's? There would be a quick end to your challenge.

Aren't there a couple of guys who are low 14's already anyways?

 

That was sorta my intention, it wasn't a matter of cheating.. since we have guys that can put in 14 times already, a 100 shot would get them in the 13's and where's the challenge now?

Think of it though, a 13 sec no nos lo3 creation is a great achievement and will serve as a template for future modders...

no more, how do I get this and that.. no more 305 can't do this.. no more drop a 350 into that for real power...

I'm aiming this as the challenge to put an end to the debate, no guessing if it can be done, just let's finally see it done already...

 

Can the 187's be ported? I got a buddy who I think with some good gears and traction is gonna be damn close.

 

this hasn't ever been tried before.

more power to you. let me know when you fail to achieve your goal. no flame intended, it's just that we've been here before and no one has succeeded to date.

 

what if i just stapped a rocket to the roof of my car. Or what if i pu tthe stock heads on my 350 motor .. yeaaaaaa

I need traction and free mods to break into the 14's, maybe the performer manifold. Then with a chip and a cam ... eah ... i dunno how close i will be.

 

Um, duh. he said no power adders... that means no juice. 13s WAS to be my goal this summer just to show up a few guys on the general tech board because they said it couldn't be done, but unfortunatly money got tight, some things went wrong, and I ended up sinking $500 into her just to get her running right again. One of these days...

 

There's at least 1 guy on this board who did it to a TBI about 10 years ago... mismatched parts, bad idle, lots of power engine wasn't good for long, but it managed a few runs in its short life and pulled a 13.8-13.9...

It's not that it isn't impossible, its just it takes the right parts and right combination of everything to get it to work. Fast forward to now and we have better selection of parts, its just the guys that do own these cars don't have the funds to get them.

Take what it takes to push a 350 into the 13's... the only guys I know that I've seen run 13's dropped around a good $2000 into the accel superram tpi intake and *** knows what else into traction mods and exhaust. With slicks and a good night, he got a 12.7 though... That's expected of a 350 and the money invested.

If you price out a matched cam, heads, intake, exhaust and traction mods for our cars will it come close to the superram in price? Probably not, but does anyone with a TBI have that kind of money? More often than not if you got a tbi, you're already on a budget or have no clue about f-bodies... With that kind of money invested a 305 built right should pull in 13's. That's what has been done with mismatched parts, what's expected of matched parts done right should be in the same ballpark.

 

I read this message board almost every day but if youve been astute youll have noticed a distinct decrease in the number of posts ive made.
Why?

Because id say a good 80% of the threads are hot air. Lots of talk, lots of plans, lots of predictions, and little to no action.

I dont understand how a good half of you come here every day post things concerning tbi and thirdgens yet have modlists that read like an airfilter and a set of headers.

 

Not enough $$$. Now I can't vouch for anybody else, but when I ask questions, it's for future planning. I have a Word document that has the parts broken up by sections, along with part numbers, associated parts to get that job done, price and the vendor with the best price for the parts.

 

Pablo give them time...

But I have noticed that most of the threads being posted have already been covered.

 

in response to pablo...i only got my licsense a year and a half ago and i took the car to the track with no mods and it ran mid 16's...my goal from that point was to pull off a 14 second timeslip, which is now covered so i figured i'd try and go 13's on the stock swirl port heads...i know it can easily be done with aftermarket heads but im putting all or most of my money into the 350 im building right now...i have everything i THINK i need to go a 13 in my garage right now, just a matter of getting some time to get everything done...keep in mind im a broke college student taking 17 credits a semester and workin 30hrs a week, so it's gonna take time, im shooting for somewhere around december or so...another disadvantage is i don't know anyone with Win ALDL or chip burning capabilites so all tunning is done with a timing light and adjusting FP by mph, luckily njspeeder has almost mastered the art of FP adjustments so that helps.

heres my reasons i think 13's are possible
~the car went a 14.95 but was out of tune and was off its best mph by 4mph...there is another .2-.3 if i can get it back into tune
~the new TC, the stock TC is killing my launch, ppl have told me its even obvious from the stands, they say they can hear the car fighting the converter...2,600 stall TC im hoping to get another .2-.3 out of that
~LT1 cam, we all have heard reports of huge ET and MPH gains from this
~V6 springs up front and 1.5" lowering springs for the rear...possibly another .1 off the 60'...if so that could lead to .2 at the big end

lemme know what u guys thing....BTW pablo i have everything in that list available to me right now, its just a matter of getting it all on the car, so theres no hot air here

 

I'm with ya, in two weeks I hope to be in the 14's but unfortunately I'm buying S/R Torquer heads and port and polishing them. A LT1 cam is going in at the same time along with a ported L05 intake.

 

i dont think i could hit 13's with stock heads even all i have done.. i think with some s/r touqer heads i could hit high 13's with some good traction and good weather.. and some subframe connectors.. does anyone agree with me?? mods in sig..

 

bbtaz97, i think you may be closer to the 13's than you think, at least power wise. it honestly only takes about 97.5mph to get into the 13's. you will likely run above 91mph now, and it has been shown before that the LT1 cam through manifolds can gain 4mph of trap speed. that added to your good exhaust set up and a little tunign will easily get you into the needed speed range.

later
tim

 

well thats makes me feel i bit better about my car performance wise .. after i get im cam done im getting some tuning help with a custom chip witch will help me alot. .. plus i forgot i few items on my mod list like msd distributor with new hei module in it and msd wires plus i have a megashifter too.. right now i have a jet stage 2 chip..

 

I'm sorry but I gotta agree with Pablo's comments and say that he has made a good observation.

 

Do all the small stuff too. What I mean by that is to spend the time and index your spark plugs in the right direction, reduce weight from stuff like cruise control, spare tire/jack, maybe move battery too the back. These little things can do nothing but help especially if you're dealing with stock heads. If you're going to port the heads then do the valve angle job and reinstall with a thin gasket.

 

YOUR ON!!!!!!!!!

 

This should help ya out:

http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/features/0208_scared/

Take notes.

 

lmfao

 

Good Lord that was gay!

 

How much does a 3 angle valve job usually run? And how thin of a gasket should be used?

 

Alot of posts are hot air but I do think we will see some 13 second lo3s soon. Maybe not on street tires but slicks. When I bought the car all i knew is that it was a v8 camaro. I thought it has to be fast. well the lo3 is a good daily driver and thats about it. As money allows im modding it. And someday ill have a 350 but for now I would like to get a 14 out of the lo3.

 

i gotta agree also, although now i have 355 cubic inches of fun. my plans went well, just took a bunch of work like everything else.

 

About $100. Whatever you do, dont find the cheapest shop in town to do it. Also, try and find out where racers take their stuff to, not repair shops. Repair shops want the cheapest (and worst, generally) valve job they can find.

Stock gasket is ~.019 you need to run that to maintain the compression you have now.

 

Why move the battery to the back? What good does that do? And about everything that can be gone is gone from underneath my hood and the spare tire/jack.

 

Moving the battery to the back of the car takes weight off the front of the car and puts it directly over the wheels where it is needed.

 

If you know your heads havnt warped at all (shop can check that too) run the fpp-1094 gasket. It has a compressed thickness of .015" so it'll give you a little more compression.

 

And more compression = more power, but worse milage?

....if so, how much more power? ....and how much worse milage?

 

compression is not likely to cost you much if any mileage since the diffeence made by the gasket thickness is fairly small. if you shaved the heads and moved the compression way up there may be a little mileage loss, but i doubt too much.

madmax, that article is sooooo funny. i remeber when i got that issuer in, i laughed so hard. best line has to be "chicks dig convertables." baahhhhhhh hahahahahaha
blackbirds car is not very heavy, mostly because he barely weighs 100lbs...hehe.

the car has had the minor weight reduction already. still has a/c, sound deadoning and insulation, stereo, and full compliment of power accessaries. there is prolly 200+lbs that he coudl get out of the car without anyone ever noticing.


later
tim

 

I think it was Hot Rod that did a very similar article, except it was with an old big block (I'm pretty sure on that...) equipped land barge Pontiac. The title was "Ponti-Hack". I don't remember any exact numbers, but I think they got faster than 14.3's out of it. They probably started off even worse too...

 

I asked a shizz load of questions before I tore into my engine Im sure as hell glad I did. I know the mess Im in now, I cant imagine what would have happened if I went in blind.

 

questions are where knowledge comes from. whether a question seems simple or obvious to those of us who have been on this board since the days of green text or not is immaterial.
we all started otu wonderign what woudl or woudln't work and even how engiens worked iin general. i remember when macgyver first discovered the counter top material to maek tb spacers out of and seeing his first "ultimate tb" at the first ever north east thirdgen gathering many years ago(some park in pa, food, cruise, burnouts, park rangers telling us to leave. it was a good time)
i encourage peopel to assk questions and try to bring up new angles to solve old problems. just because an idea is different does not stupid.
even ideas that are obvious no one is actually gonna try can present helpful tech info.
just because a few people don't liek to think that a person who has only had their car for a few weeks or months won't know as much as those of us that have had our cars for 8 years does not validate their position.

later
tim

 

Well put.

Does anybody have a TBI unit they'll sell me?

^shameless plug^

But seriously, does anybody have one? I've looked all the place for one, but the junkyards around here suck.

 

When I started my "weight reduction" I went in blind. I really didnt know how to take the AIR or AC off but i did it anyways. Car still runs so Im guessing I did alright. Since then the smog pump has gone, cruise control, evac canister and numerous other pointless underhood things.,

 

NJ Speeder has a good point, there are an insanely large number of different parts available to all of us, some exclusive to some areas, others worth an arm and leg... despite that, not all combinations/permutations of parts have been tested and even in our lifetime will never be tested. Even out of the factory, no 2 cars were identical... who's to say someone' experience with a certain combo won't work on say another combo.

The point is the problem is the same, how do we pull 13's out of the old 305 tbi? There is no one single answer to this.. funny though that there is probably a thousand ways to approach this, and probably a good amount of answers to it too.

 

you would notice more of a difference if you skipped breakfast. Get the correct gasket, the super thin ones are notorious to blowing out. If you want more compression, get the heads milled a bit. I went through this in my search of the perfect compression ratio.

 

NJSpeeder (Tim) needs too keep up his magic. I'm glad too see that he's getting results even though it isn't with his car .
BTW, I'll call you about the Tazzo, it's at my Mom's and I'm back in Ohio for a while.
The question about compression is obvious. Milling the heads is a better way than just the gasket.
Another good idea is to gasket match the intake to the heads. The key is not to increase the cross-section area (enlarge) but to just match it up. Unless you can increase ALL the area in the port it isn't worth doing. In the heads, port the intake runners roof. This is a classic way to build power because it allows for a better angle into the chamber. These are all details so I'll skip them for now.
Weigt reduction can help a LOT. Loose the weight and the car will run faster with the same power....and trust NJSpeeder and myself when we tell you there is a lot of weight that can be removed. I've got a crap load of stuff that I've taken off which include all the a/c, hood liner, air injection, front plastic ducting crap, underbracing of a stock hood (hood clearance issues but weight none the less), and various other stuff. You could go as far as getting a smaller race battery (which is just as durable just more expensive). Disconnect the alternator with a large master switch, this has been proven to help noticably with Mustangs AND various GM cars. Just turn it off after the burn out and you'll be all good for the 1/4 mile. The only guys that I know of that have increased alternator power drain are those running with stock fuel pumps in those GN's. They need the extra volts running to the pump to keep high fuel pressure and fuel flow, we are running low pressure so it isn't as important.
Getting lighter wheels always helps along with aluminum drums in the rear. Removing the front sway bar (Randy I know you've already done this) and removing the front impact beam (if you don't think your car is worth anything to begin with ) are both free mods.
Anybody can get an LO3 down the 1/4 mile in 13 seconds, it's just a matter of how far are you going to go and what is your budget. For most of use getting 13's could be cheaper by just going with a 350, it's all a matter of progress vs time vs money. If Randy and Tim can get that car into the 13's I'm sure they'll have to spend more time on it than a 350 swap but I bet it'll cost less!
Good luck gents and btw, I was around all summer to burn you an eprom, I just never got a phone call to confirm a date and time. Then we were going to go to Island drag but it rained out, then you didn't show up for the trophy marathon... I'll be back for thanksgiving and check out www.osu.edu for my school schedule for when I'll be back.

 

I wasnt trying to say that the gasket was a cure-all. However with the vortec heads, I only wanted them milled .020 so I could potentially put them on a mild compression 350, and then with the extra .005 I saved from the gasket, I was happy with what my compression would have been. If you add a little High-Tack to them before you install them and know that your heads/block anrt warped then you'll have no trobule.

 

teh planned weight reduction in randy's car is actually rather minimal. he wants to keep his radio and he drives through trenton all teh time, so removing any impact beams is a big no(people around here can't f'ing drive worth s@#%!).
teh a/c is likely to disappear soon in favor of a heater only set up, teh charcoal canister is gonna go away, and possibly some carpet padding and sound deadener. that about it for now. the future will see more dramatic changes, but for now that shoudl be all that he needs.
teh one thing that i think is up in the air still is if 3.73's are enough gear to take full advantage of the LT1 cam. from the modeling i have done it looks liek 4.10's will get teh job done a bit better. i have a here that will be receiving 4.10's, we may just have to "test" it in randy's car at soem point

later
tim

 

so how many of you guys are actually gonna take up teh challenge?

later
tim

 

What do I win?

 

what do u win?...well first thing probably a lot more races than u win now ...secondly you should get some satisfaction in knowing that you've accomplished somethin many others haven't...worst possibly case is you come up a little short and end up with a low 14 second car, thats not such a bad thing

 

i will but i dont think ill get to the track before they close for the season here i got to much to do on the car yet plus im trying to get thos wp heads from the classifieds and then i will garentee 13's..

 

well, 13's are what I intend to do as mentioned before. It'll be spring though before I get there (and the track re-opens). For now I'm just trying to make it through my last semester here at VA Tech unscathed. I should have enough money come February to begin the transformation though. Right now I barely make enough to cover my groceries