Ok, how's a zz4 shortbolck with AFR 180cc heads topped with an edlebrock tbi manifold bored to 2 inches and a 454 tbi. I'm thinking about having the manifold extrude honed. And before anyone trashes this manifold I already have it and I want everything to bolt in with as few modifications as necissary and I would like to remain emissions legal.

I would of coarse have headers and full exhaust. But the cam I am not sure on. I have a Lunati 215/218 dur. 489/503 lift cam with 115 lobe sep. would probably run 1.6rr. Still thinking of something a little bigger might also do a 112 lobe sep just to have a "nice" sounding idle. Any other recomendations welcome on the cam.

Now this combo would be tuned and I will be running about a 2600-2800 Vigilante stall and probably 3.42 gears.

So give me some opions on this combo cause I want to get started on this in the next few months. Also what kind of horsepower could I get, I love to see around 375hp.

Later, Mike

 

It sounds like a nice project.
I am going to trash the intake however. It just doesn't have the plenum size, especially for the power numbers you're looking for. Intakes are inexpensive, and there is nothing hard about the few changes required to install a carb manifold or the holley projection intake.
Cam sounds good, just keep in mind, the less LSA, the harder it will be to tune. Also, with that much lift, you may want to think about 3.73s.
Also, I don't think 375hp has been achieved yet with a 2bbl tbi, though I think 350hp is possible-not that 375hp is unimaginable, it would take the right combinations and dead on chip tuning.
Best of luck. Let us know how the project goes

 

Don't limit that killer set up with a TBI. Anyone who has AFR heads on a zz4 shortblock should look into a stealth ram or miniram setup. You are going to needs tons of tuning, fuel, and air to make that thing get 350hp. Is money an issue? a zz4 block and AFR heads a costly, might as well finish it off with something equally expensive. If you have to stay with TBI look into a L98 shortblock with vorttec heads. You can get the same amount of power you are looking for with a TBI set up. The zz4 set up is ready for 450+ horse and you are paying a lot of money for it to only achieve 300-350 or so.

 

yeah, the zz4/afr combo COULD be very hot. if you are stuck on TBI, think 4bbl holley. with a single plane manifold.

that cam isn't bad, it would work. or you could think about getting a hot cam, that would work well with AFR 190's, and a good carbed manifold, along with a 700 or 900 cfm holley TBI.

 

Well, the only reason I'm planning on the tbi intake is because I already have it and I want to stay emissions legal. That's why I have thought about having it extrude honed to help it flow better. I may one day move to where the car has to be tested and I don't want to have to change parts just for that.

I have thought about different induction system but everything that I'm thinking about is expensive so starting with the tbi would help cut cost and I could always change that later.

Mike

 

If you can afford to Extrudehone it, you can afford to get a carb manifold, a 454 TB, and adapter.

Extrudehoning is expensive; I had it done to a TB manifold.

Then I switched to a carb intake, and there is no comparo.

You can probably find a single plane carb manifold with an EGR provision. I had never heard of one; but I now have one in my possession. Of course its for a BB, so if they made one for a BB, chances are good there's one for a SB!

 

It sounds like a good setup. Don't let anyone bash the edelbrock tbi manifold. THE EDELBROCK TBI MANIFOLD HAS THE EXACT SAME PLENUM DEPTH AS THE PERFORMER RPM MANIFOLD. Bet nobody knew that.

 

Yep. I stated that fact in a post a few days ago!

 

How would the Weiand 7525 be? Is anyone actually using it with tbi?

What about instalation, any trouble finding the correct egr valve?

I'll probably never spin this motor over 5500rpm so would I really wasnt a single plane?

 

Oh, 454ss did you feel that the extrude hone job was a waste?

 

Not a waste, but overpriced. Not a good power to $ ratio.

Plus, the Extrudehoning smooths everything out. Smooth surfaces are great for a dry manifold, but not the best for a wet flow setup.

 

If I did use the tbi manifold, other than opening it to 2inches; is there anything I can do to squeeze the last bit of power from it? Can it be ported or is gasket matching really it?

 

I thought the performer tbi was just a tbi version of the edelbrock performer, not the rpm performer.....it(performer tbi) is only .25" taller than the stock tbi manifold I thought, I don't know about the rpm performer, but I would think it is taller than that. But I guess if you guys did the research, there may be something I am missing. I just don't understand why the performer tbi would be rated from idle-5,500rpm while the rpm performer is rated from 1,500-6,500rpm.

I still recommend the holley Pro-jection intake, part #300-66 for '87-newer cast iron heads or #300-49 for pre-'87 heads or aluminum heads. It has egr provisions, has a larger plenum than the edelbrock tbi intake, already has the 2" bores, and is rated from idle-6,000rpm. That is if you are sure you want to saty with a 2bbl TBI.

Personally, if you are like me, you will realize that the 2bbl TBI will become the major limiting factor, and eventually want to swap to MPFI or a 4bbl TBI. That is why I honestly recommend a carb intake, so when the time comes, the injection swap will be easier. Trust me it will happen, the need for speed will overtake you, and as easy as it is to say "I am happy with 350-375hp", when the time comes and you realize you can make much more than that, you WILL want it!!

 

What do you mean by plenium depth? Noobie question, sorry

 

The plenum depth is the same for the Edel TBI intake and the RPM Air Gap. I didn't measure the volume of the TBI intake, but the Air Gap did look larger.

 

The depth from the bottom of the intake manifold to the top of the manifold. Basically you want more plenum depth or space so that the engine can breath more. More plenum means more air inside the plenum therfor more air for the engine to take in. Also, the bigger the plenum, the smaller the tbi or carb is needed for air so a big plenum on our small bore tbi's would in a way be like putting on a bigger tbi. It's complicated, but that's the best way I could explain it.

 

The edelbrock tbi manifold has very slightly smaller runners, which I guess is the reason it is listed as idle to 5500 rpm. The thing I like about it, is the bores are centered so all the cylinders get even distribution at WOT. With a carb intake manifold the bores are either toward the front or the rear, which doesn't give equal distribution. I plan to port match my edelbrock tbi manifold to the heads on my car to give a little more top end.

 

Thats what I thought you meant, but in this case I didnt see the usefulness (is that a word?) as the stocker is the same height as the RPM, also (evidenced here ). As you can see the only thing that makes the RPM taller is the giant holley adaptor.

 

Chuck,
Did you look down into it when the intakes were off? They may be the same height but the performer may have a thinner wall thickness wich will yield a larger plenum volume.

Everyone,
The two Edelbrock intakes may have the same plenum volume but you are still pulling air through two 1 11/16" openings. That is the limiting factor on this intake. You will drastically improve the airtake cfm by boring it to 2". Now whether this can be done or not because of the close water passages I still haven't found thins out yet. This aside the larger plenum volume helps but still won't supply the air flow the carb one will. Now if you compressed the intake charge that changes everything. But for ambient atmospheric air you still need to increase the area of you intake holes (lack of being technical here) to get more air in. That is why the Holley TBI is the intake to go with, despite its EGR woahs.

 

I agree with both of you to a point. I just don't see what make's the edelbrock tbi so bad. It has the same plenum depth as the rpm manifold, is a DIRECT replacement for the stocker, and the bores are centered to give better distribution at WOT. It's got a lot going for it I think. The major thing holding it back is the small bores, but if you are still using the stock tbi or do not have heads or cam, it's really a great upgrade over the stocker. I agree though, that once you reach the point where you need bigger bores, the edelbrock tbi might not be the way to go. Although, I have heard from a few people it can be bored out, but others say it can't, but who knows. Somebody needs to find out, lol.

 

My Edel TBI intake was bored out from 2" to 2.2".

Of course that was for a BB, but I would think the same would apply for a SB.

 

I always remember people saying that 2" was the most you could go on the Edelbrock TBI manifold because water jackets run right next to the bores and if you bore them out too much you come very close to hitting the water jackets.

 

Well I may be the guinea pig on this one. I am going to take it off, examine it carefully and try and mill out the holes. My dad owns a machine shop so I can get his best machinist to look at it for me before I go ahead and do my patented amateur machining, lol. You can also chamfer the bore openings a little and that helps when you have a larger TBI but doesn't really get the job done. Anyways, this is a good intake and if you can make 2" bores, than it is really perfect for a heads and cammed 305.

I put the intake on before I had headers and it was an ok mod. I am definitely getting more out of it now with the headers (as crappy as they are). I never thought about the centering of the bores. However, I just pulled the plugs on my car to replace them and a lot of them had unequal wear. Some were fuel soaked and others covered in carbon. This could be because of the junky platinum Bosche Plus 4's that were in there or it could be something else. But they definitely did not have equal wear or fuel on them. I really need to take pics of them and post them.

 

The RPM has the nice long runners that will hold a lot of volume, thats where it pulls ahead. Plus the stocker and Edelbrock TBI have the ~.5 gap from the top where you tap in for the vacuum brake line, where as the RPM's go right to the top of the manifold.

 

What do you mean by this? I can't quite picture it in my mind.

 

Between where the tbi sits and where the runners come up. Look at the top of the RPM manifold, but imagine the Holley adaptor isnt on it. The runners come right up to the top, lots of volume.

 

I see what you are saying now. Good point, but I think plenum volume is far more important than runner length. Don't the tpi guys always want to shorten their runners? Why would we want to lengthen them? It is an honest question, not being a smart *** or anything.

 

plenum size is but one component of a good manifold. Just measuring the depth tells me little about that, that is adjustable anyways with spacer plates.


I suppose the tbi manifold would be good for you guys with trailer hitches and such. lol

 

Lets be realistic guys. The majority of the cars on here can't even take advantage of the stock intake manifold let alone the RPM, etc. If you want a direct replacement manifold that will yeild a nice gain the edelbrock tbi manifold is the best out there. The stock L03 heads probably can't even handle the flow of the tbi manifold, so why get something you have to fab up, possibly comprimise hood clearance, etc? I just don't get why everyone bashes the tbi manifold when in all actuality the fastest guys on here are the ones that use it. The most popular adapter plate seems to be the holley one which will not allow you to center to bores on the intake manifold, which is horrible for distribution at WOT. The edelbrock tbi manifold is the only manifold that will alllow you to have the bores centered for the best distribution possible.

 

I guarantee there is no n/a 305 here that is faster than mine and i run a single plane.


Speaking of manifolds to match stock engine combos.. if you want to leave the engine stock then why bother with the manifold anyways. Leave it all stock and save yourself the hassle, the 10 hp gain from a manifold change on a 16 second car takes you from really slow to uh... really slow.

 

NJ speeder ring a bell? He went 14.2 I believe with the edelbrock intake manifold with stock cam! Camaroracer1992 ran a 13.1 with nitrous with that manifold with stock heads and cam. I could dig up a lot more with a search, but it would just be useless. Thats great that you have g tech times with your head/ cam, gear, everything car with a single plain. How much fabbing did it take for you to do that? I bet it someone would put as much time and mods into their 305 as you have and used the edelbrock tbi they would run as fast. Besides, how can you even compare your car to anything tbi related when it has a carb on it?

 

lol time and fabbing? i have about 700 bux into my engine, the only thing specifically related to this is a 60 dollar used torker II manifold and a steel adapter plate for TBI that has the tbi centered.
Why does this apply? because TBI and carb introduce fuel from the same place. By the time it gets to the intake valve there is really no difference in what will get into the cyl. The differences are in total airflow and either units and how quickly/well they respond to airflow changes (by adding fuel accordingly) due to the drivers foot.


If you want to go comparing engine combinations youd be further ahead to compare trap speeds. Also, with nitrous, just about any old manifold will do. Nitrous is a supercharger in a bottle and makes airflow specifics much less important.


BTW you mention "gtech" times specifically as though you are implying something.. do you doubt I can run those times? please let me know now it does seem as though you do. This saturday I will be finding out if you are right or not. Will you stick by your insinuation?

 

I said gtech times because you need to get real track times. Simple as that. Your times mean nothing to me as they stand what so ever. When you go to the track and get real times then you can use those to compare with other carbed 305 times. Do I think you are lying, no I don't. Do I think the track is the only real way to find out your times, yes. Do not take my comments as anything more than they are. I also honestly don't care what you run, because you have a carb. If it were tbi, it would be completely different and I would be very much interested in what you run, but carbed 305's have been pulling good times for a long long time. TBI to me is much more interesting, obviously because my car is equipped with it. If your track times are near what your gtech times are you have a fast carbed car, but none of your setup can be used as a guideline for tbi injected cars either. That is what I meant.

 

Agreed, the Edel TBI manifold is better than stock.

I went 13.42 with the Edel TBI manifold; it had the bores opened up to 2.2 inches to match my modified TB and it had been Extrudehoned.

My truck ran out of breath at 4700 rpm, even though the mild hydraulic roller cam I have is rated to 5200.

I switched over to the RPM Air Gap, and there is no comparo. The engine pulls like crazy to 5200. The airflow increased so much that now I'm way lean up top.

Once I get the new fuel pump installed and fp adjusted, I'm returning to the track to verify the performance increase.

Also, the truck pulls harder thoughout the RPM range, not just on top.

The next step is the installation of an old Holley Street Dominator single plane.

Personally, I wouldn't rec the Edel TBI intake on any combination other than stock, or near stock.

I could be all wrong on this; I'm just telling you my experiences.

Oh yea. All this with a Hyperjunk chip.

 

Uh oh Id be carefull with statements like that. Takes me about 15 minutes to go back to tbi. Spark remains the same too. No guesswork anymore either, WB, egt, high speed datalogger, etc.

Stay tuned (i mentioned saturday because my car is finally here and I am very very close to a sea level track)


In the meantime, i am going to put you in the "naysayers" column despite your attempt to thinly veil your true feelings..
You are making it fun for me now, Muahahahahahahah muhahahahahhahahahahahah


btw to stay on topic, I think you really need to pay attention to the manifold you get when you start demanding alot from the throttle body.

Some things youll want to consider:
for a small carb or TB youll want a larger plenum (adjustable with spacers)
and very importantly, an open plenum.

Seeing as how a 2"bore tbi flows under 500 cfm Im not sure you can have too much of both (realistically anyways) The throttle response will still be phenominal as I have witnessed myselfwith respect to TBI vs a carb in the same application

the above applies of course to those who want to get a little more serious than the most basic of boltons. Eprom tuning is a must among a balanced choice of parts not just for the engine but for the chassis as well (I.e. like my combo is very mismatched when it comes to my 3.42 gearing.. should be 4.10s or atleast 3.73s)

 

Thats cool. Put in whatever "column" you wish. My feelings won't be hurt and my opinions will not change. What I told you is the truth. I am blunt and don;t beat around the bush and if I thought you were full of **** I would tell you how full of **** you were. The truth is I believe you, but what I find so amusing about you is your attempts to look like some sort of *** to the tbi community when you don't even run it on your engine. Sure you could swap the tbi back on, but could you still run as fast. That is the real question. Now before you say anything else, just go to the real track and get some real times. If you happen to run fast I will be the first to congratulate you. The fact still remains you did it with a carb, something thousands and thousands of people have done before. If you really wanna get wild, why don't you just swap the tbi back on now and see what she'll do. Then I might be interested. Until then, good luck at the track and I hope you don'te hate me, despite the "column" which I am now currently in.

 

I know you been around and all, and I know just how "accurate" the Gtec is and all but COME ON. I say it too, throw around a track time that got printed and handed to you.

 

nothing of the sort, i dont hate you at all in fact I like your posts. Indeed we disagree over some minor details but I think we are on the same wavelength in this hobby in that we take it somewhat seriously. It just sounds like somewhat of a "challenge" and I like a challenge. I was hoping you could infer that I will be swapping back to TBI. The object of the carb is to get a direct comparison to another induction system as a point of reference.
The whole tbi thing has been over mistified. All it does is spray gas and let in air its not much more complex than that. Tune the VE tables so that my wideband spits out "happy" numbers and if its not as fast then it should be obvious that airflow is the issue.
Im fairly confident that my short times will drop with TBI but mph will be down(airflow).. thats my hypothesis lets see if im right. I have some tricks up my sleeve to get some more flow out of it and trick the motor into thinking its got more flow. With a 4 bbl tbi unit I think ill be up all around.


to tie this into the topic, basically those tricks are the sorts of things you should be looking at in conjunction with your manifold selection. Like I mentioned above, you will likely want to increase plenum volume as most carb intake plenums are sized on the small side as it is. Youll also want to perform all the tricks on the tbi to increase flow. One of the most sure fire ways to do this is mill the throttle shafts. THere is no ifs ands or buts about that one increasing flow.

Radiusing the inlets should (if I am to believe everything Ive ever read about fluid dynamics) increase flow... but there are those "X" factors that I may not have accounted for. Ive done it and advocated it for the small tbi's.. havent done it on my 2 incher yet but probably will as well in my attempt to match my 600cfm edelbrock


maybe you missed above where I mentioned saturday, I say saturday because I will be going to the track here since I now have my car. Im shooting for a 13.7 course that could turn into a 14.7 lol

 

Ah, now I see what you are trying to do. Makes much more sense now. I think comparing a carb to the tbi would be a very cool comparison. I say go get your track times with the carb and then hurry up and put the tbi on. Now I am interested, lol. Good luck Pablo. I know all about the throttle response you talk about as well. My stock tbi car would kill every carbed car I have ever driven in that category.

 

BE SURE TO LOG ON SATURDAY NIGHT

 

If I did I wouldnt remember.....
I'll check sunday afternoon, bet on it...

good luck!

brady

 

Oh *** how I know that feeling, lol.

 

C'mon chuck, we all know you run 9's. You have every bolt on don't you. Have some import optimism.....

 

just add a few stickers and you'll be goood!!