TBI Throttle Body Injection discussion and questions. L03/CFI tech and other performance enhancements.

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Old Jan 1, 2004 | 04:17 PM
  #51  
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From: clinton,tn
Hold on crossfire, I've got first dibs on the GTA.

Btts: I understand what your saying. I guess I would just rather put my money in a 350 or larger engine over a 305 unless I were trying to built an SCCA legal American Touring Sedan F-body. If I started out with a 305 and just wanted to build it up till I blew it up, then swap everything over to a larger engine, that would be cool too. I guess I'm just not into the 305 or die issue.

Steve

For those who just want to be different, be different, more power to ya.
Old Jan 1, 2004 | 06:35 PM
  #52  
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From: Wisconcin dells
305's Don't breath .....350's Blow up.......327's......well they go fine......

Me my self i am a 400 Guy.......
as fare as chevy goes i am a 327,400,427 Fan........

305's are nice drivable engine's that live a long while....

to me 350 is a useless waste of space and i really don't spend much time on them cause they have been proven unrelaible in my cases......

66 chevy C-30 4250RPM revlimter....went threw 8-350's in 4year's..........25,000 to 37,000 miles was the average engine life......the current 406 has 67,000miles still running strong....


81 chevy blazer had a Brand new Crate 2- 350 Blew up in 26,000miles 2nd in 32,700miles....Junked truck...

91 GTA 350TBI Blew up at 190,500miles First almost decent 350 but still spun a bearing.....Origanl owner Blew the L-98 in 43,000miles........

My current 87 GTA with L-98 still running at 125,000 miles...
But only run's 16.11's so I'm assuming it about to go....
Old Jan 1, 2004 | 06:43 PM
  #53  
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From: Wisconcin dells
so for the low people.....

thats 2 out of 13 350's that lived to see high miles.....

2 out of 13 ain;t bad

.....................................................................................................

Then 8-350's in the 66 chevy 1ton all had a 4250rpm limter on them so there weren't over reved.....
Tuned up and oil changes where done better then routine.....

they 350's in the Blazer were broke in for 6,000 mile each them driven nor 60% of time.....beaten the rest.....

Well as fare as thw GTA's well you know sport's car's they were maintained but performance driven.....

Now my 400's last nad last 4 core radaitor and a 160*F T-stay them just run and run.... 327's don't Normally die.....

427's are stout........

Last edited by 91 GTA Ramair2; Jan 1, 2004 at 06:46 PM.
Old Jan 2, 2004 | 02:55 AM
  #54  
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From: Tempe, Arizona
Car: 96 Silverado/99 Suburban
Engine: 700 cubic inches of 'Muican Awesome
Transmission: 4L80/4L60
Axle/Gears: Chunky/Clunky
You wanna go high numbers I've had my 94' Suburban with a 454 thats got 130,000 miles on it and still runs like the day it came off the lot.

And my project car is getting a 502

Bruce (90RS305)
Old Jan 2, 2004 | 09:03 AM
  #55  
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From: Wisconcin dells
bUT AS FARE AS LASTING ME i HAVEN'T HAD A 350 CHEVY LAST MORE THEN 40,000 MILES.....
Old Jan 2, 2004 | 11:29 AM
  #56  
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Huh… I currently have 2 350's that have over 140K miles and are showing no signs of age. The one in my K1500 Blazer sees A LOT of towing, road trips and even about a dozen or so dragstrip passes a year. I've got one sitting in the garage that got pulled at 298K miles because of a bearing knock out of a caprice cab that supposedly spent it's first 90K miles as a cop car, if that's not going to get abused I don't know what is (I've taken the top end apart and don't see anything egregious for that kind of mileage, you can even still see some crosshatch on the cylinder walls).

OTOH, I've never managed to kill a 305.

Makes me wonder what some of the rest of you are doing. In most cases I do nothing except make sure the engine is tuned right and change the mobil 1 every 10K miles or so (sometimes more often if it got heavy use like a lot of dragstrip passes…).
Old Jan 2, 2004 | 12:08 PM
  #57  
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From: Wisconcin dells
Then your just a lucky guy................

But in my Book you will Never ever ever never Convice me that the 350 Is not a compleye wase of space.......

the 305 noce beater can be mildly snappy but still no a performance engine...........


327 400 427 will all run Circles around the 350 chevy .....

350 is cheap peol bought them cause thay was cheap ......

Now there Cheap and plentyfull still Don't mean there the best........

Just cause it's the Cheapest Most ubent engine don't mean it's the best.....

And ferther more no SH*t box 1/2ton blazer or caprice classic will hold a candle to my OLd 81 3/4 ton Blazer more less my 1966 1 ton chevy..........
don't use any truclk under a 1TON ...1/2ton and 3/4ton's Don't Hold up for any length of time....

a 327 will run a 350 into the ground Then Duig the 305 out Run it back into the ground several more time's.......

400sbc will do anything a 350 can only faster and Longer....

427chevy Well Noit even worth come paring to a 350 fare fare Advanced engine.....

As faew as 350 chevy goes I'll help you out fix it up but i refuse to listen to bs about How the 350 chevy is the greates engine in thew world I'll never by that cop out shoot I strongly Dislike mopar but 318 & 360 Mopar's will out live out work a 350 or 305 100 times over......

But i'm still not a mopar fan.

Heck a 302 ford will just as hard and as fast as a 350 chevy but i dis like them too.....

350chevy 302 ford's 318 mopar's..My top 3 Disliked engine's.....

But any who that is just my Humble opion.........

Every one Could have Awsome luck with a 350 chevy......

I haven't And i know a few other's that dis like them as well....it's all opion tho guy's and each other's case....

But I have noticed this is a very Opion Operated Message board....

Oh and Mob 1 oil every 10K miles LOL what a wast of time......

I run AMSOIL 100% synthetoc oil they recomend oil changes every 6month's or 6,500miles but I change mt AMSOIL every 4,000miles and my filter's every 2,000miles.....

I have yet to have and engine fail with less then 400,000miles on it......

GAS engine:

Filter every 2,000miles OIL every 4,000Miles.
AMSOIL SAE60w sunmmer fleet&winter fleet too.

Diesel engines:

oil Filter and Luber finder every 2,000miles and oil every 6,000miles.

oil SAE60w.

My Engine's are well over 300K miles still run like now Hold better oil PSI hot at idle them most engine do cold wide open.....

Non of my engine leak or use oil.........

whitch is good cause at $8.50/Qt a leaker might be exspensive....

But the 87 GTA is only got napa brand 20w-50 cheap *** oil but i at least have the 2QT filter on it Most guy's will run a ph30-1/2Qr filter or the ph 5 1Qr filter.

I'm Not stupid I run the real Filter the Hastering's 2Qr filter better volume better oil cooling+better psi better oil life = better engine life and performance....

But this summer the 87 GTA will get SAE60w Valvoline...

But cause it ain't synthetic it will get oil and filter change every 2,000miles.........

Last edited by 91 GTA Ramair2; Jan 2, 2004 at 12:11 PM.
Old Jan 2, 2004 | 12:28 PM
  #58  
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From: Wisconcin dells
Now before O get booted from this message board I'm going to leave this thread alone ..........:hail: :hail: :hail: :hail:
Old Jan 2, 2004 | 12:42 PM
  #59  
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you know, you type almost as much as silverback, but you say alot less.
Old Jan 2, 2004 | 12:47 PM
  #60  
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From: Wisconcin dells
................
that about about sum's it up........

Just a bunch of But anywho

Silcer back is one of them guy's where the stupidity is funny to watch it's so entertaining but It get's boring then you gotta iggy him...

And "mr.dude1" if you dis like just hit the iggy button....

Last edited by 91 GTA Ramair2; Jan 2, 2004 at 01:02 PM.
Old Jan 2, 2004 | 01:01 PM
  #61  
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Car: yy wife, crazy.
Engine: 350, Vortecs, 650DP
Transmission: TH-350
Axle/Gears: 8.5", 3.42
Just to help clear this up, TPI does hit a brick wall much over 4500 RPM.

Don't believe me? Then argue with this guy...

Originally posted by RB83L69
The Stealth Ram isn't TPI... it's not a kind of TPI, has nothing to do with TPI. It's port injection, but the similarity ends there.

TPI stands for "Tuned Port Injection". Remember that phrase, it accurately describes the physics of how it works. As air rushes down into a runner, and the intake valve suddenly closes, the air has inertia, and kind of smacks into the back of the valve and stacks up; this produces a positive (higher than ambient) pressure. TPI's design is that the runners are of a specifically chosen length, such that the acoustic pressure wave (could be otherwise referred to as "sound pulse") generated by one intake valve's closing event travels back up that valve's runner, into the plenum, and then down the next runner with an open intake valve, and that the time it takes to make the trip causes it to reinforce the intake event at that next cylinder (as well as all the others, but they don't matter), and thereby it "compresses" a little extra intake charge into that cylinder. The length is of course dictated by the speed of sound, which is roughly 1100 feet per second at room temp & pressure, slightly different inside the motor, but still roughly one foot per millisecond. So, as we all know, the length of a TPI runner is 22" including the base; that makes the distance from one intake valve to another by way of the runner & plenum to be about 4'; which means the valves are about 4 milliseconds apart at the speed of sound. That's 1/250 of a second. 4 cylinders fire during one crank revolution, so that means that the RPM at which this reinforcement is at its maximum, occurs at somewhere just below 250/4 per second, which is roughly 60 revs per second, which is roughly 3600 RPM. Look at the torque curve of a TPI motor, you'll see a HUGE peak there. Now you know why. The runners are acoustically "tuned" (the T in TPI) to produce it.

The penalty for this blessing is two-fold. One, in order for the runner to effectively transfer the sound pulse, the runner needs to be as small as possible. That's TPI's famous flow limit. The runner diameter is just large enough to meet the flow requirements of the engine at the "tuned" RPM, but no higher, as there is no need for flow beyond that RPM anyway due to reason #2.

The second penalty is much worse even than the first. After this pulse of air movement bounces off the valve and travels up the runner, it partially evacuates the runner, leaving a negative pressure behind. This half of the pulse also travels up the runner, into the plenum, and down the "next" runner in the firing order. If the intake valve happens to still be open when this pulse arrives, it has the opposite effect. If the engine RPM is well below the "tuned" RPM, the arrival of this pulse is insignificant, because the intake valve that's open at the moment it arrives is open for so long that the short-duration pulse doesn't have much effect on cylinder fill at all. But, if the engine RPM is above the "tuned" RPM, the negative-going pressure wave from one cylinder's intake valve closing event doesn't have time to reach the next valve in the firing order, instead it affects the cylinder 2 cylinders later in the firing order; and at this higher RPM, the length of the pulse is significant compared to the total intake valve open time. The effect is, of course, negative: this negative-going pressure wave subtracts from cylinder fill at RPMs in that range. This occurs from about 5000 RPM on up.

In a nutshell, this is what's wrong with long-tube runners for performance, or more specifically, horsepower. Horsepower does not exist, as such; it is a quantity that's calculated from torque and RPM. You can get a high HP output from an engine either by having huge torque at some moderate RPM, or moderate torque at high RPM; but since torque is simply a measure of CID and cylinder fill, unless you have some way of increasing the fill beyond 100% which is only possible with some kind of "power adder", it isn't possible with a straight N/A motor. So, the only way to get high HP out of a N/A motor is by producing significant torque, i.e. near complete cylinder fill, at high RPMs.... which TPI is deliberately designed to defeat.

That's whay a motor that makes 355 HP with a carb, or that would make similar numbers with a Stealth Ram or a MiniRam or ProRam or any other system that doesn't depend on tuning, will only put out 240 HP with a TPI on it.

In short, TPI should have been used in trucks, it would be absolutely perfect; but cars like ours should have been equipped with something more like the LT1 intake. The MiniRam in fact was exactly that, except for that it pre-dated the LT1 by many years. In other words, it took GM that long to catch on, or at least to reach the same conclusion. Too bad GM didn't wise up sooner: 3rd gens would have had some actual power, and the F*rd guys would have been wondering what they were going to do to keep up alot sooner than what has happened. Incidentally, their intake looks kind of alot like the MiniRam or LT1, as far as its design.

This is why I'm not interested in being bothered with trying to make TPI fast. I choose not to butt heads with the laws of physics. So, I will choose a carb over TPI; but I might choose some other form of FI over a carb for some applications, too. Dislike of TPI is not the same thing as dislike of FI, or love of carbs.
As far as 91 GTA Ramair2 not having good luck with 350's, have you ever though of chaning the oil? Or maybe never touching another wrench?

For you to think that a 350 is less reliable than any other SBC is ridiculous. And to bring the 427 in this is silly. It's BBC for Christ's sake. Of course you can't compare it to a 350.

Originally posted by 91 GTA Ramair2
But I have noticed this is a very Opion Operated Message board....
But this doesn't apply to you, right?

BTW, thanks for letting us know what type of oil you use, the info on the diesel engines, and what oil filters you use. I'm sure some people were loosing sleep over it.

Did you want to let us know how tall you are, and what you do in your free time?


I need to get my waders on because the BULL **** is getting deep in here. There's so much trash talk, my garbage bill just went up $2 from reading this crap.
Old Jan 2, 2004 | 01:06 PM
  #62  
91 GTA Ramair2's Avatar
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From: Wisconcin dells
Well F*ck pump easy simple fix just hit the iggy button there not
hard... Dosen't have tax your low grey matter level.......

Never said that 400 was better period i said in my case 350 has proven to be a POS simple as that............

I change my oil and do 10times better maintaince then most of you guy's.........

Well thank's for the insight to thirgen owner's mentality.....

There mnord to life then a 350 chevy.....but you guy's seem to think not.....
Old Jan 2, 2004 | 01:08 PM
  #63  
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Car: 91 Camaro Vert
Engine: 02 LS1, HX40
Transmission: 2002 LS1 M6
Originally posted by 91 GTA Ramair2

And "mr.dude1" if you dis like just hit the iggy button....
**looks around**

nope. there isnt a ignore button. even if there was, i probly wouldnt use it.


unless your experiances with the SBC or 3rdgens is directly related to the question, i think you'll probly be better off keeping them to yourself.

i dont care what your standing record for SBCs of any displacement is. nor do i give a **** about your AMX or any other car you own or have owned.

i am a lil annoyed with all this ego boosting crap.

i dont care what your OPINION of me, silverback, or anyone else on this board is... just stop filling up the board with this crap.

this is a TECH only board. if you want to BS and talk about how great you are, and want someone to jerk off over your 9 second dual TBI car or whatever, goto one of them. heres a few:
www.3rdgen.org
www.allmakescombined.com
www.lastgen.com
www.gmperformance.org
www.cz28.com
and more if you look on www.google.com

theres no need to reply to this thread any longer.
Old Jan 2, 2004 | 01:13 PM
  #64  
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From: Wisconcin dells
:hail: Oh yes all knowing one I am so sorry if ofened you oh third gem master:hail:





oh you forgot:

www.ssamx.com

and

www.americaniron.net

there all knowing one......



:hail:........................... :hail:....................... :hail:

Last edited by 91 GTA Ramair2; Jan 2, 2004 at 01:19 PM.
Old Jan 2, 2004 | 01:15 PM
  #65  
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Originally posted by steve8586iroc
Hold on crossfire, I've got first dibs on the GTA.
That's fine… I'm sure I'll find something and I'm pretty stingy anyway. I prefer TA's and firebirds, but I'm leaning toward my first camaro for my next 3rd gen since you loose a lot of weight vs the firebirds and the nose is simpler without the flip up headlights (packaging issues)

tts: I understand what your saying. I guess I would just rather put my money in a 350 or larger engine over a 305 unless I were trying to built an SCCA legal American Touring Sedan F-body. If I started out with a 305 and just wanted to build it up till I blew it up, then swap everything over to a larger engine, that would be cool too. I guess I'm just not into the 305 or die issue.

Steve

For those who just want to be different, be different, more power to ya.
That's tts?

My whole point is fairly simple. If you're looking for something in that size range unless you're building a road race car that needs to be spun to the moon, the 305 is a good choice.

If I really wanted to be different I'd get the 4.3L version of the LT1 block and convert it to run with a distributor, probably a "normal" SBC water pump, run b-body LT1 iron heads (ported by me) and someplace north of 25psig boost… That would be different and fun. I'll probably do something similar with the B-Body LT1 that was liberated from an *ick RoadMonster sitting in my garage… maybe I should do that instead of rebuilding one of the older 350's that I'm sure I'll break in the next couple of years…
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