I'm fed up. I've spent more time trying to get my car to work than I have studying for class. My car won't start. I've posted this topic a few times, but it still will not start. The car cranks, the car gets fuel, and the plugs are sparking. The problem? The car won't turn over. It will occasionally fire, but never consistently detonates. I took a plug out and the spark its getting is a dull red/orange color, and doesn't look very big. I'm not sure if that's the problem or not. If you guys don't know what's wrong with it, how do I know a mechanic will be able to fix it?

Before you suggest replacing everything, please note that I've replaced and/or tested:
wires: MSD Heli-Core, Universal set. 2 weeks old. I crimped these with a C-clamp, and re-crimped them to double check after the car wouldn't start. resistance checks out fine.
cap/rotor: Accel, 2 weeks old, no carbon tracking
ignition module: Mallory (OEM style); week old, same results as the stock module gave
plugs: Autolite 604s, gapped at 045 out of the box; three weeks old, fouled but cleaned w/toothbrush twice, have same results with other plugs with smaller gap (however have not re-gapped these plugs to smaller- will try it later)
coil: MSD Blaster (external OEM Style); my old one (year old) is the same coil, I replaced it with the identical one (week old) with the same results. I tested both coils as per Chilton's instructions, and come out fine.
battery: DieHard Silver, new as of yesterday, 12.64V at terminals, and about that from positive-to-chassis
relocated ground wires: to ensure a good contact surface
valve lash: I reset lash a few times with both methods (Chilton's and Haynes). Valves indeed open without coil binding, as I have tried to start the car with the covers off.
pushrods: they are straight as an arrow, not bent or anything.
timing: the rotor is pointing to #1 cylinder on the #1's compression stroke (both valves closed) with the piston at TDC (as per balancer). The timing light DOES go off consistently after the battery was replaced (12.3v on that battery) which it didn't before.
fuses: all of them check out fine, including the ones under the hood. I checked all of the fusable links I could find, and they're okay.
ECM/PROM: although the computer does not control the engine under 400rpm, I've tried both the stock prom and the one from TBIChips.com.

The problem all started after my project (in the sig). With the exception of a bad EGR, my L03 was running flawless before I started the mods. The car ran at one point with the new mods, but poorly. It would bog and stall when I put it in gear or gave it too much gas, but it idled fine in the driveway. The timing was probably the culprit, but I don't know how good the spark was then. I'm guessing it probably has something to do with my problem. There are no SES codes aside from 12, due to the EST is disconnected. Yes, I've tried starting it with the connector on as well.

I bought a new multi-meter and I have no clue what to test aside from the obvious. I'm getting good voltage from + to chassis. I've got little resistance from the heads/intake/accessories to the chassis and battery (~10milliOhm). I don't know if the spark is bad, or if it's just not sparking when it should. I have not checked if the distributor is grounded or not, but I will as soon as I go outside to test other things.

I put the stock TBI on the other day and noticed it was dumping tons of fuel into the intake. I had to take the plugs out and dry them off with a lighter (to burn the fuel out). I put the TPS on the Holley so it wouldn't flood the engine. Now it just mists the fuel (like it should) into the intake instead of pours it in. I think the stock TBI's TPS may be dead or something now. The weatherpack connector only goes in one-way... Anyway, that's probably not the reason the car won't start, because the plugs are still getting a bit wet.

Carb is definitely not an option for me. I've already spent too much money on trying to make this car run with EFI; custom PROM, Holley 670cfm, TBI-to-carb adapter, Vortec throttle linkage, etc. To give up now would be a huge waste. I can't afford a $300 carbeurator plus tuning supplies, and a $100 vacuum-advance distributor, and then a carb fuel pump and/or AFPR. Then you can't forget the extra things I'd still need, such as fuel lines and throttle linkage brackets and miscellaneous fabrications. Then it doesn't stop there, because I'd only be getting half the gas mileage I'd have with TBI, not to mention I'd constantly have to fiddle with it to make it work. Carb is definitely nothing I want to consider.

Tomorrow (or tonight if I can't sleep) I will check things with my multi-meter including the coil voltage and distributor ground/resistance. If that's not the problem... the car is being towed to a shop, where I will pay a million dollars to get it fixed.

:lala:


Thank you for reading.

 

If your timing is 180* out your piston is still TDC, Both valves closed, Balancer mark on 0*. You have to watch the #1 intake valve close to be sure of TDC on compression. Your plugs are getting wet because their trying to fire at the wrong time. Try pulling the dist. out and turn the crank with a socket wrench 1 more revelution to TDC and reset the dist. just as you had it. I'll bet it will fire.

 

I havent tried this method, but I have tried the other method (turn it until the spark plug hole pushes finger out, put it to TDC, etc)... That's a good idea.

 

its come to the point where I will not rule out any ideas.

 

No, that method put it 180* out of sync, lol. No change, I put the dist back on TDC again. Anyway, I took multimeter readings. The coil's thick pink wire had 12 volts when I put the terminals to the chassis... but only 11v when I put it on the other wire it was next to (the other wire in the gray connector)


When I put the ohmeter to the distributor base and chassis I got infinite resistance. I put the electrode on the intake manifold instead and came up with a low number. But the intake manifold to the chassis has some resistance... Is this normal? Is it bad?



btw the spark is blue, I re-gapped a few electrodes and it's a thin blue spark.

 

Okay, I tested each spark plug and it's getting a nice blue spark consistently when connected at both the coil and the distributor. The timing is accurate, because the light goes off when the #1 valves are both closed, then the exhaust valve opens. I'm getting fuel. I'm getting air. I'm getting spark. And I'm getting them all at the right time. What gives?

 

Good, youve got all the ingredients to make the motor run. Now, make sure when turning the engine clockwise that both valves on the number one cyl are closed when that piston is on the upward stroke toward TDC. This will be #1 TDC. As always, make sure to use an adapter on the crank rather then the bolt to turn the motor. youll really be mad when the bolt strips the threads in the crank or breaks off.

Make sure everything is hooked up and then advance the timing by hand while cranking by turning it counter clockwise(?), can never remember. Dont turn it much, just a little to help give it some advance to get it to start. With all the fuel siting around inside its going to be hard to get it finally going agian.

Oh, it will help if you can use a blowtorch to heat all the plugs and get all the crap off the insulator.

 

Well, being you have the timing right, lets check some other stuff!
firing order! I'm not knocking your ability, but I've acually seen this. 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 in "clockwise" direction on the cap W/ #1 on the cap pointing in the direction of #1 cyl. (right front corner of the engine). I've had my engine die a couple of times right when I start it and man, it's a bitch getting it to re-start because the tbi doesn't get the signal fast enough to stop adding fuel. Being you have fouled and cleaned the plugs twice already, you might look into a new set. If you get real desparate. you can even try a shot of starting fluid. Just stick the air cleaner lid back on before cranking so if it back fires you won't toast your eyebrows! or worse, catch your eng. on fire. BEOCH ought to be starting!

 

Token-
Sounds like this thing is putting you through the mill. I know when I re-did my car it sat for a long time (6months). I had fuel, air and spark, but it would not go.
I finally had to disconnect my injectors and have a friend manually squirt new gas into the TBI to get it going. How much fuel did you have in the tank during the swap? If not much, maybe you had some condensation you are pulling into the fuel line?
Anyway, that is one of the few things I didn't see mentioned. Might be worth a shot.
From what you have covered in your first post of this thread, the damn thing should be running.
Kudos on the continued posts, alot of guys would have quit posting.
Keep on keeping on-
S-D

 

My car when we swapped cams was being a bitch too. When your starting it, have a friend watch the spray coming out of the injectors. If it's A TON of fuel, floor the accellerator pedal, this will put the car in flood clear mode or something like that. This is what we needed to do to get my car to run. Just crank it and floor it, wouldn't hurt right?

Tony

 

I had a full tank of 87 right before I tore into the motor. Unfortunately I've made up my mind that the car is going to the shop tomorrow (on monday) via tow truck. It's to the point where I just *need* the car to run now. Its my only vehicle and I have to get to and from school. I may not always have an available ride to take me 40 miles each way. I can't afford to keep dumping time and dollars into this car when it's doing no good sitting in my damn driveway for the past three weeks. I've already purchased about $250 in things that I don't need, which haven't fixed the problem. I'm so close, yet so far away.

I thought I could have the car up and running in a week. And I did. I had the engine bay pretty much stripped out within two days, and then reassembled in another two. I was making good timing. I had my car started and running that same week. I just hit a brick wall when something went wrong though. I failed my project. I did not accomplish my goals. I will probably be shyed away from ever working on a project like this again, because the more I touch my car the worse it gets.

 

Token
Hopefully its not to late, and its not already in the shop, but have you tried putting new gas in there yet. Its sounds rediculous but ive seen it happen many times, before. Good luck and hope you get this thing running soon.

 

i opted to keep it out of the shop for a little while longer... but no I havent tried new gas in it. There's still 2/3 of a tank of 87 octane in there and it was perfectly fine before the project started.

I'm gonna try trplacing the spark plugs again and some carb cleaner. Also I will put a bit of oil into the cylinders to lube the rings a tad. I'll look at the electronic spark control, and then possibly the ECM. I doubt the ECM is bad but it was a suggestion.

 

it wont hurt to try anything at this point in time, just do what swerve driver did and have someone spray the fuel in there while cranking it. Chances are its something, simple as the oil pressure sensor.

 

would that prevent a start?

 

Im not sure if it would completely stop it from starting, but i know its the main problem with alot of people having to crank a few times before it turns over. Maybe talk to one of the mods on here or even shifty and they could probably go farther into detail with you about it. It kinda makes sense though, you have air, fuel, and good spark, i do know if that sensor is bad you will keep cranking and cranking, much like ur doing now. Good luck, let me know how this turns out

 

just got the neighbor kids truck running tonight. It hadn't ran for weeks since he flooded it bad last winter. We tried cranking it over but it just wouldn't start so we took the spark plugs out and dried them off. We turned the motor over about twenty times with the plugs out and cleaned the gas out of the cylinders, then put the plugs back in. It then started but it ran pretty crappy till it burned out the remaining extra gas. If you have flooded it you might have to do the same because flooded cars are hard to start in the winter.

 

The car should still start with a bad oil sending unit. I could be wrong though. I geuss the cylinders could be flooded but some of that gas should go out the exhaust if he is cranking it so much.

 

Have you tried the flood clear thing yet? Wouldn't hurt

 

yeah I have. I took the plugs out and let it crank. I took them out before I left to let the cylinders air out too

 

one thing to check is waht your base time is. This can be done with the engine off. Take the cap off the dist. and look at the reluctor in the center. When the 8 points on the reluctor thingy that trigger the pickup coil are lined up with the eight points on the outside is about when the distributer begins its firing sequence. Rotate the motor untill its at tdc. The points shoudl be just a little ahead of the stationary ones. Take the motor and turn it backwards to around 10-12 degrees BTDC on the timing marker. The moving points should start coming back and maybe even go past the stationary ones again. Rotate the distributer untill their lined up again. Tighten it down. This should, in theory, give you a static base time of whatever is on the timing pointer. You migth even want to try giving it a little more. This is the same way ive been doing it whenever I have to remove the distributer and it starts the first time, every time, even on a new engine when its cold out.

 

dangit, I tried my best . Good luck though man, I hope you catch what it is before it has to go to a shop.

Good luck
Tony

 

YAY!! THE CAR IS...












IN THE SHOP : (

 

Have they said anything yet?

 

nah it was too late for them to do anything today. They'll get to it soon.

 

Damn Token,

You sure know how to make a big build-up for a big let-down. We were all hoping that you were going to say.

YAYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!! THE CAR IS ALIVE!!!! IT"S ALIVEEEE!!!! AAAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA (evil laugh there) SUCCESS AT LAST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And what do you say, YAY! THE CAR IS IN THE SHOP! Bummer.

 

oh well, shxt happens

 

coolant temp sensor?

 

That prevents starting how?

 

Some how I doubt the shop will be able to do much with it. Most shops around here would just look at it and see you swapped heads and cam on a FI vehicle and ask you to take it some where else because it isn't stock. But around here people are really dumb.....scary dumb.

 

Itsn't that the truth. I sorta quized a speed shop around here once to see how much they new about small blocks and they told me I needed a differnt flywheel, and fuel lines with any cam swap in a small block. Needless to say I only bought tires off them. But if token gets lucky they can get the car started if he has the timing way off. Even if the tune is bad they should be able to get it stated and get it to run. There has to be a gear head there or someone who has put together a small block before. If not I doubt token would take it there.

 

I'm determined to get this car going, even if it means taking it to a shop or two. So thats' what I've done. Hopefully they'll get it going after only a few hours. I mean, I told them everything, and the guy wasn't a moron. It's a private ASE shop, not a dealer. He was impressed with what I did, and he told me everything you guys did. He assured me he would get it running, it just might take a while. Oh well, small sacrifice, right?

 

I have seen a bad coolant sensor cause a too rich (flooding) condition. It wouldnt start, just sputter and kill.

 

I'll bet after the shop scratches their heads on the ign. they do a comp. check! (logical).

 

I told him to check the compression too lol.

 

I understand the pressures of everyday life and been the victim of an everyday driver that aint going nowhere. What you have learned in this process what ever it might be is of value. I have little patience for my home computer let alone a tempermental vehicle with the same characteristics. I don't get very excited at the prospect of starting my adventure especially after reading your posts. I will say this that what you have learned to this point weather its mechanical / computer knowledge or simply a life lesson don't let it sour your outlook on this or future projects its all experience. I am just getting started with my project and I know I will be sitting in the same boat in 2 weeks I will still start it knowing I am going to suffer but be a better person for it after I am finished. The thing that really sucks is your not going to be the guy to fire that motor after all this. Get the thing on the road and another project will find you at a better time in life. This thing will work out just don't throw away what you have already learned

 

Ive seen this before, prepare to spend probably around 300 dollars for an unfixed car.


My wager is on timing and or valve lash since it sounds like you arent very solid on either of them. These cars dont like to run with anywhere near stock timing when you throw a cam and a few mods in them. Mine wouldnt even run. I had to advance the hell out of the timing


Oh well, youll learn a lesson in self reliance at the least. Guys with ASE badges and repair shops cant hold a candle to the knowledge you are provided with on this site.

ASE is a joke.

 

Yes Obe wan, I WILL use the force next time!

 

ASE doesn't mean all that much. All they are trained to do with ecm's is to check the codes and then check the sensors associated with that code. The info on this board would make their head spin. Hopefully it's a mechanical problem and they will find it. After my experience with an untuned combo I have a sneaky suspicion that your way rich and way retarded....the car not you I know how frustrating this can be, it took me an intire week of chip burning to get my car to run well enough to keep my alive on the open road, I just can't see how Brian is able to burn you a chip that will even start the car on the first try.

 

While there are certified techs who really know their stuff, it seems like alot of the major chains and dealers are just out to make money off you. Even stupid stuff ammounts to thousands of dollars in estimated repairs when all thats needed is jsut a small fix. Like said above, those techs really take those codes as gospel. The last time I took a car in to the dealer was for a faulty egr valve that I was too lazy to service. They scanned teh computer, which had all sorts of error codes on it from the egr problem, and got back to me with an $1800 dollar repair estimate. Needless to say, picked the car up and jsut fixed it myself. They where really pushy too and wouldnt let me take my car at first. They said, 'Oh, its only 1800 dollars, whats the big deal?' and 'Youll never be able to fix it.' Ha...

 

When I put a vortec motor in my car, the coolant sensor lead wound up being too short to connect. Like a dingus, I was dying to hear it run, so left it unconnected. This must have told the computer that it was freezing cold or something because it dumped tons of fuel into the motor, which ran out of the open headers. Finally, it popped and shot a flame out the header, igniting raw gas on the garage floor. I saw flames coming up between the engine and my firewall (freshly painted engine bay). You have never seen a white boy move so fast to grab the fire extinguisher (which I had handy, TFG).
Runs good now though-
S-D

 

I feel like I'm waiting for results on a reality show! You know, "AFTER THE BREAK". C-mon already! Break's over! I gotta know something sooooooon! SOMEBODY!, call the shop!!!!
IIIIEEEEEEEEE!!!!

 

Hey sqzbox,

That's a good idea for a reality show.

SURVIVOR: THE CAR!

 

Trickster!
I believe it's already been done. I can't remember what they call it so I probably couldn't spell either. We used to compete with other auto tech classes to diagnose, and repair an engine problem. First car starts, WINS! The LOOSERS had to leave the shop " FOREVER"

 

it's 5pm on thursday and I still haven't heard any development from the shop yet... which means one of two things:

A) they haven't looked at it yet
B) they have only looked at it for less than two hours and have no development


I hope I'll hear by the weekend

 

edit: double post.

 

man, i'm sorry you're having so much trouble. you were so thorough in doing the project and documenting it.

i hope the shop finds your probblem quickly and inexpensively.

 

Hang in there TOKEN, I got off work early yesterday and decided to service my tranny before the autocross race sunday. I haven't done it since I owned the car 4yrs. & 10,000 mi. So I get the pan off and here is the old style filter, being held up by a piece of coat hanger wraped across the valve body and black elect. tape wraped around the male end of the filter where some dumb arss try to seal it with out using the O-ring! Where do these people come from? It's a wonder I haven't burned it up!

 

What's the status Token?

 

It's one of two things, Bad news or he got it fixed and he's to busy "chasin' the ladies"!