Went to Speedworld on Wednesday night. I bit disappointed. I was hoping this new chip would get me into the 15's, but it did not happen. Previous best was 16.288. It was a bit warmer tonight.

R/T...............628
60'...............2.495
330'.............6.960
1/8 mile.......10.598 @ 68.455
1000'...........13.604
1/4 mile........16.269 @ 87.713

Considering it was a warmer night, I did a shade better. Still not what I wanted though. Oh well, logged some good race data though.

 

are you at high altitude because that time is really off of what that car ought to do at sea level

another thing to consider is that at sea level these cars run rich at WOT, even with mods they are still rich, if you are at high altitude that is merely going to exascerbate the problem. I would try leaning things out and bumping the timing. I bet youll gain power.

 

If I had to guess I would say the altitude is @ 1100'.

 

Yeah, I have a 92 RS and I am running a 16.1 @ 85.34 and that is only with a CAI, with a 2.73 peg leg. You MPH is good for a mid to low 15. Something is def holding you back.

 

when you have a 2.4 60' with a 3rdgen, you have to work on driving the car first.

you should be able to knock .4 off his 60 alone by driving the car... tires dont even matter, any L03, even at 1100ft, should be doing a 2.0 60' or better.

you dont need more power to get into the 15s, you need to pedal it out better or make it hook. either one will take .4 off of that.

 

if you get your 60ft time down you will be deep in the 15's at least............

 

And just think how little it took to get you there!

 

So what do I need to do to "drive better"?

 

do you have a stall converter, Bill?

 

you can start with not spinning the tires.


its kinda hard to critique someones driving over the internet... atleast without video.

it is obvious somthing is wrong there... either your car is really broken and you have it floored, or you arnt leaving the line right.

usually if you are leaving the line that bad, its the driver.

 

if youre on street tires make sure you dont get your tires wet they only work for slicks/DR's.

adjust how you launch in tha ti mean find a good rpm that makes you pull hard but not spin your tires.

do you have an auto or manual? if you have auto find your best shift points so you stay in your powerband. if you have stock stall converter definetely invest in a new one, other people would have more knowledge then me about what size to get

if you search the racing boards there is a lot of info about general good ways to drive, unless we get video or something thats about the best you can do You could always let chris or ominous drive your car just to see its max potential

 

I want to say that unless he's got his fuel/spark tuning he's not spinning but bogging down real bad. I know that with my stock tune I cant get my tires loose at even 2200 which is where my stall is. Power wont come on until about 3000 rpm and stays strong to about 5500. Thus yeilding 2.4 60's and thats with tubular lca's, relocation brackets, phr and a posi. Again, we're both looking at big gains in our ET's if we can get our 60's down to about 1.9 which is where I think I should be on street tires.

edit: rereading this post just do what Pablo said. Id start with giving it spark under 2500 rpm though.

 

I'm getting little or no tire spin at all. I try to keep the rpm @ 1500. Should I go higher. The stall converter is the stock one. So it's what about 1800?

I never use the water they set out. I always drive around it.

I am getting a CD of a few of my last races. I know a gal who works in the production business (comercials and stuff). She is converting the VHS tape to a CD for me. When I get it I will get them posted.

 

Thats all right. Last week I ran 16.73 at 89.4, but I thourght it was real bad for the amount of stuff that I've done to the car. But I dp still have a non-posi rear and spin real bad.

 

When I was bone stock I couldn't pull anything better than a 2.3 60 with NO spin at all. He needs to work on his tune, which I agree try giving it more spark down low. A higher stall and some gears would do wonders for that car too.

 

I have a 2k stall. The best have pulled was 2.1 60ft, but not it averages about 2.3. Even if I leave right at 2k rpm, it still spins. It has a 2.73 peg leg.

 

stock stall is around 1400-1600 rpm

 

For some reason I'm getting the feeling you are shifting too low

 

he's not shifting too low... that's what he's launching the car at

 

uhhh yes I know. Do you really think I'm that stupid? Anyways, with your mods your powerband should be much higher. What are you shifting at?

 

Can be even higher. My stock one stalls at close to 1900 rpm with my 350 in front of it.

 

I'm shifting at 5k, maybe a little more.

 

It's all tuning. Let me tell you, I know lol.

On that note its time to go hook up the 'ol Wideband and get some WOT blasts.

 

How you launch can be best described as an art form. Your first move is to get the car tuned well enough that your getting some tire spin off the line and then work on either 1) backing the timing off till it stops, or 2) learn to walk the car. Case in point if I just peg it off the line it just hazzes the tires past the 60 foot, still pulls hard but just barrely spins the whole way and I pull a 2.3 60'. If I walk it out (aka fethering the throttle) it feels slow as hell but I pull a consistent 1.98 60'. My GF has a peg legger in her monte and a crap load of bottom end torque. If she doesn't walk it it'll spin the entire 1/8 mile. When she walks it just right she can pull a 2.2 ish 60'. Funny thing is on the street she can kill me off the line and I'm the one fighting wheel spin.

If you have pretty tall gears your timing and fuel below 3000 will really effect your 60'

 

Yep, I'm pretty much just flooring it off the line. A little wheel spin but not much. I will try feathering it.

What do you mean by "tall" gears? I have 2.73's.

 

BTW,

A girlfriend that drag races????

I gotta get me one of those!!!!!

 

I think when he says tall gears he means numerically higher than what you have ie 3.42's, 3.73's, or 4.10's.

 

Ah, gotcha!

 

You say you are shifting at 5k? Is that what your stock tach says? I would take your stock tach till it says 6500 rpm. The stock tach is so off I bet you are shifting at 4500 rpm even though your tach says different).

 

You should see how far the stock tach is off with a scantool so that you can correctly determine how much the difference between actual and registered engine speed. Some are off alot, others arnt. Mines off by about 300 rpm at high engine speed.

 

Is the dash on WINALDL accurate?

 

Accurate but slow.

Steve

 

Thats not a good time at all for the work you've done in your sig. I think I read a post not to long ago about the heads and cam swap you did. Unfortunitely the times don't reflect the work you've done. My 91 RS LO3 is amlost a second faster with only a cam and a basic TBIchips.com chip from ebay. From what everyone says about chip tuning after mods are done to these engines, you got tuning to do.

I think you driving skills are fine you just need to get the car into shape. I don't even rev the engine up when I wait for the green light I just feather the throttle to try not to spin the tires and try to manuelly shift at 5500RPM.

Fastest so far:
R/T: .474
60: 2.282
1/8: 9.897@72.00
1000: 12.831
1/4: 15.307@91.11

 

I know what you mean. The times are pretty disappointing to me. I'll just keep doing the tuning and try to dial it in.

I would still like to do 3.42 gears, intake, drag radials, and a torque converter. I'm hoping eventyally all of that will get me to low 14's.

 

Thats a shame man beautiful car. im not very tech savy with the whole windall and all of that but ill tell you what man that motor is starveing for fuel it seems youve got heads cam ect on a stock intake and tb thats a weak point and also a posi and say 3.73's will rocket your car into lower e.ts. Also go to a mechanic buddy of yours and get him to check out you tach and if he has the tools to get your speedo and tach calbrated well thats if you have a buddys whos a mechanic and also you should get into all that chip burning on your own a guy halfway across the country cant tune your car properly man its a hands on deal and also i see you have a 305 tpi car what made you descide to want to hook up a LO3?

 

I had already started doing stuff to the LO3 by the time I got the 305 tpi. So I just kept going.

As far as the chip tuning. I'm dabbling but progress is slow. Very confusing.

 

This may help shed some more light on any performance issues your having...

heres the spark table and PE spark adder table

 

and the fuel tables...

 

I thought the computer had no input on AF ratio at WOT?

 

As far as teh spark table goes (subtract 20 from all values to get actual advance), it looks like you have around 42 degrees at cruise and a total of 32 degrees at WOT. While this isnt bad for some motors, it may be too much for your 305. The CC are smaller and it probably could stand to have less timing at WOT. Also, if you have more then 0&#176 of initial spark advance, youll have that added in as well. For example, if you have 6&#176 of initial SA, the youll have 26 (from table) + 6 (initial SA) + (8 from PE SA adder) for a totoal of 40&#176 of timing.

Also, if you look in the '100 kpa' column, youll notice that the values level out at 2000 rpm. The area where it plataus is called teh total SA. 2000 rpm is too early to bring in all your spark advance, your better off having it slope up to the peak ammount of spark advance at 3200 rpm. Id start with 10 degrees in the 400 rpm, 100 kpa column, and 25 degrees at the 3200 rpm, 100 kpa column and have all teh other values slope up to the peak. In addition to this, zero out the slope and PE spark adder tables.

What this will do is smoothly get all your timing in by about 3200 rpm. I have a graph to better illustrate this.

 

Im getting there Cant fit it all into one post.

Ok, if you look at the 100 kpa area of the table I posted, you can see how the timing smoothly ramps up to its peak at 3600 rpm. This is a vac advance distributer style curve that I made up today so I could go cruising in the mild weather (havnt used the car in almost a year). Works well, but its still funky in some spots. One thing you dont want to do is have too much timing too early. Even if it doesnt cause detonation, itll result in elevated piston temps and reduced power from pumping losses. You want the fuel mixture to be done burning by the time the piston has come several degrees past TDC. Too early, and the piston has to compress a hot, high pressure mix of spent combustion gasses. This takes some experimentation to find.

 

Overall, Id start off with around 30 degrees of advance in the low map cruising areas and a total of 25 degrees at 3200 rpm at high load. Gradually keep increasing the timing untill the motor feels its best/turns the best track times. Once you get to this point, you dont need to go any farther with the timing. The key is to run as little timing as possible to maximize the power output.

EDIT: also make sure you set the initial timing in your prom to match the actual base timing. Otherwise, the timing in the tables wont match your actual timing.

 

As for the fueling, thats sort of a mess. It looks like lots of extra fuel has been added to cover up the excessive ammount of timing. Each of those VE tables are added together to get the overall VE. There is more then 100% ve specified in some areas. In the stock ecm, 100% is the max allowed so basically the injectors are being run at 100% dutycycle to give the max fuel output. The PE afrs are the desired air fuel ratios that the ecm targets. Since the ecm cant measure the airflow directly it relies on the VE tables to construct the pulsewitdht for the injectors. I highly doubt that the actual AFRs would match those. It would probably start out around 11 or 12:1 and get leaner as the rpms increased. As for tuning the tables, youll have to do this experimentally. Basically either with the BLMs or with a WB O2.

I dont expect you to absorb all this at once but I can tell you that there is certainly room for improvement

 

I'm gonna have to read that about 100 time but looks like the first thing I need to do is set base timing in prom to 6* so the spark advance table is consistant with the engine.

Next I change the values in the 100kpa column to gradually go from 10 to 25. Currently they start at 35 and go to 46. Now you said I need to subtract 20 to get my actual spark advance. So if I want it to go from 10 to 25, is that actually 30 t0 45 on the table due to the 20 I must subtract?

What about the other columns? Should the 400rpm row, which will be 10 in the 100kpa column, gradually work up to 10 as the kpa increases? The same with the 3200rpm row, what should it start out as if it is working up to 25 in the 100kpa cell?

 

Also, I assume these values are my actual values from the bin I sent you?

 

As far as the fuel table, I will be working of the BLM logs from WINALDL. I still need to get the chip adapter soldered in the ECM. Then I'll be ready to start swapping out the chips. I do have some 2732a chips. I might be able to burn those and start now.

 

Those where just alot of thoughts I wanted to throw out there. All that was the super condensed version. Theres no way to cover it all in a thread. And yes, those values where from your prom. Its not a bad start, but still it obviously needs some improvement since the car is down on power. My thoughts are too much timing and fuel.

The first thing Id do is make sure the base timing is set to zero degrees. Leave it there for now untill you actually go to work on the timing. Next you can start off with the small things like constants and stuff to get into actually burning your own proms.

The next thing to do is concentrate on the fueling. TRAXIONs article on part throttle tuning is very good. I recommend you read it and then re-read it. Its for tpi but its still just as applicable to your setup. Once you have the fueling down, then you can work on timing. After that, then its all the little tweaks that make the car run good.

Take it slow and search and read the info over on the prom board. Itll take some time to really learn how to tune so take it one step at a time.

 

OK. I'll work on the fuel first before I mess with the timing. The shop that burned that chip set base timing to 6*. I can try backing it off a bit.

 

The timing in the chip isnt set to 6, its set to 0. The computer subtracts out the initial timing so that the timing that is actually at the distributer is whats in the tables. Right now the computer thinks there is 0 degrees of initial advance. You have around 40 degrees of overall advance at WOT by the time you get to 2000 rpm.
Thats just way too much for your motor. Hell, its too much even for my smog 350 with cavernous combustion chambers. The fuel is probably done burning before TDC so your just heating up the pistons and wasting power.

Tommorow, you should back it down to 0 degrees and see how the car feels. Disregard what the ALDL says. Even if there really is no knock, its not an indicator that the timing is right by any means.

 

Ohh wow this is the custom "tuned" chip we have been waiting for. This pretty much confirms our guesses to what was wrong. You can see that if you add the two fuel tables together your completely maxed out at 100% by 3200 rpm. So your ecm doesn't add or subtract any more fuel after that point. My guess they saw that your car was lean and just kept adding fuel trying to fix it. When in fact they were out of room in the VE tables, and probably the injectors as well. This is where you need to start tuning, you have major fueling issues. My guess is your way rich down low, which is why your 60' times are so bad and why they added so much timing down low, and your going lean up top which is also holding you back.

As for timing, set the actual dissy advance to what is in the chip that way what you see in the chip is what you get, also you can set the "main spark advance bias" to zero that way what you see in the main table is what you get. Just zero that adder then subtract 20 deg from your main table then it will be much easier to look at. When your learning it's easier to just keep it simple.

May I suggest a new thread be started here for the chip tuning part of this project. I think it would do alot of people good to see how it's done on a step by step basis. We'll talk you through the basics of getting started and show actual tables from your chip that way people can see exactly what your changing and how it effects your car. I think it would be very helpful for the undicided TBI guy who wants to get started in chip tuning but can't take the plunge.