Cross fire upgrade Question
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Joined: Apr 2004
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From: Pennsylvania
Car: 1989 Camaro RS
Engine: 350 Holley TBI Personally Tuned
Transmission: 5 Speed
Cross fire upgrade Question
Would it be possible to make a cross fire intake so it would accept two 2 bore TBI's and what kind of power could it make, just thought about this and was wondering if anyone else ever thought this too
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Joined: Mar 2001
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From: MA
Car: 93 GM300 platforms
Engine: LO3, LO5
Transmission: MD8 x2
The answer is Yes.
In theory it could make twice the power of a GM engine with a single dual-bore TBI.... so 2*205 fwhp = 410 fwhp (or more) so long as the rest of the engine had the proper cam, timing, ECM-based fuel delivery, and airflow.
Airflow is the key --- because the stock Crossfire intake manifold is very limited in it's stock airflow capability. The stock runners only flow 155 cfm each, as compared to a TPI runner (LB9/L98) which will flow around 195 cfm. If you mildly port the Crossfire manifold, you can get it to flow the same as a TPI manifold, but you will be hard pressed to get 410 fwhp from one. IIRC the very best stock-sized-runner TPI engines have dyno-ed in the low to middle 300s, and the best Crossfire timeslips I ever saw/know about were in the low to mid 13s in a 3rdgen Fcar.
In summary, IF you had the mechanical fab skills, and IF you could rework the injector drivers to handle dual 2-bore TBI, and IF you had the skill to tune the ECM, and IF you ported the manifold, you'd still be stuck in the 300-330 fwhp range, which would be below the capability of the double TBI you envisioned.
It would look neat, but it would be a ton of work for even an experienced TBI-er, but it would be limited by the Crossfire manifold (no matter if it was ported or not). The dual 2-bore TBI can flow a lot more than a stock, or ported, Crossfire manifold. HTH.
EDIT:
Look these over, at least for ideas. IIRC the epoxy used inside the manifold failed, so I don't think the owner ever got to the tuning stage. He balked at having aluminum welding done so he abandoned the manifold and bought a Weiand. It (dual 2-bore TBI on the larger runner Crossfire) was a nice idea though, and still would be fun to try. I wish it had worked. IIRC other people have contemplated this idea but starting with an Offy or Edelbrock crossram manifold that already has larger runners -- so they need only create the proper cover for whatever TBI unit will be used. Those threads are elsewhere on the CFI Vault website.
Meanwhile, look these over:
http://www.newcovenant.com/speedcraf...on/default.asp
http://www.newcovenant.com/speedcraf.../cfSurgery.htm
BTW some the jpgs (image1.jpg thru image37.jpg, all on the Part 1 section) aren't directly visible enlarged by clicking on them. BUT they can be viewed by using this URL and then altering the filename accordingly:
http://www.newcovenant.com/speedcraf...les/image1.jpg
The other jpgs in Part 2 and Part 3 can be enlarged by clicking on them. I don't know how he did the wiring of the two TBI units into the harness that was expecting only one TBI. There are other threads here on TGO that discuss the pros and cons of driving 4 injectors among two dual-bore TBIs. HTH.
In theory it could make twice the power of a GM engine with a single dual-bore TBI.... so 2*205 fwhp = 410 fwhp (or more) so long as the rest of the engine had the proper cam, timing, ECM-based fuel delivery, and airflow.
Airflow is the key --- because the stock Crossfire intake manifold is very limited in it's stock airflow capability. The stock runners only flow 155 cfm each, as compared to a TPI runner (LB9/L98) which will flow around 195 cfm. If you mildly port the Crossfire manifold, you can get it to flow the same as a TPI manifold, but you will be hard pressed to get 410 fwhp from one. IIRC the very best stock-sized-runner TPI engines have dyno-ed in the low to middle 300s, and the best Crossfire timeslips I ever saw/know about were in the low to mid 13s in a 3rdgen Fcar.
In summary, IF you had the mechanical fab skills, and IF you could rework the injector drivers to handle dual 2-bore TBI, and IF you had the skill to tune the ECM, and IF you ported the manifold, you'd still be stuck in the 300-330 fwhp range, which would be below the capability of the double TBI you envisioned.
It would look neat, but it would be a ton of work for even an experienced TBI-er, but it would be limited by the Crossfire manifold (no matter if it was ported or not). The dual 2-bore TBI can flow a lot more than a stock, or ported, Crossfire manifold. HTH.
EDIT:
Look these over, at least for ideas. IIRC the epoxy used inside the manifold failed, so I don't think the owner ever got to the tuning stage. He balked at having aluminum welding done so he abandoned the manifold and bought a Weiand. It (dual 2-bore TBI on the larger runner Crossfire) was a nice idea though, and still would be fun to try. I wish it had worked. IIRC other people have contemplated this idea but starting with an Offy or Edelbrock crossram manifold that already has larger runners -- so they need only create the proper cover for whatever TBI unit will be used. Those threads are elsewhere on the CFI Vault website.
Meanwhile, look these over:
http://www.newcovenant.com/speedcraf...on/default.asp
http://www.newcovenant.com/speedcraf.../cfSurgery.htm
BTW some the jpgs (image1.jpg thru image37.jpg, all on the Part 1 section) aren't directly visible enlarged by clicking on them. BUT they can be viewed by using this URL and then altering the filename accordingly:
http://www.newcovenant.com/speedcraf...les/image1.jpg
The other jpgs in Part 2 and Part 3 can be enlarged by clicking on them. I don't know how he did the wiring of the two TBI units into the harness that was expecting only one TBI. There are other threads here on TGO that discuss the pros and cons of driving 4 injectors among two dual-bore TBIs. HTH.
Last edited by kdrolt; Jun 30, 2004 at 12:18 PM.
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