GhoSSt

iTrader: (1)

Well, got the first batch of parts for my MPFI conversion from Howell today.

The kit was 750, plus the chip (150) and
I had to convert to a 7747 ECM. I went
out today and bought a new thermostat housing (stock one hits the fuel rail), intake gaskets, '91 TBI upper hose, and I still have to find fuel fittings.

My BIGGEST concern is the tiny injectors from Magnetti-Marelli. Compared to a regular Rochester injector, the Rochestor is WAY to big. I suspect the Ford SVO 24's will be too.

I'm trying to find 30+lb versions of these Injectors. If anyone knows how to find Magnetti USA, lemme know. I need to replace the 19'ers that you get.


The ports are VERY nice and the intake runners are a tall type, single plane. Very well laid out otherwise.



There are more pix at http://ghostwheel.simplenet.com/rfasst/mpfi

I can answer any questions anyone might have.

------------------
Kelly 'GhoSSt' Rosato
1996 Impala SS, 383 LT4 (14.65 up here, 13.24 lower)
1984 Firebird, +.060 350 (Vortech Heads, HOT Cam, and schtuff)
1993 Caprice, 5.7 TBI (stock . . . FOR NOW)

"And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? Revenge. The villany you
teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the
instruction."

Shylock in Act III, Scene I of 'Merchant of Venice' by William Shakespeare

[This message has been edited by GhoSSt (edited December 05, 2000).]

CapSS92

Hey Ghosst,
Whass the matter with the 19lbs they send you? I know you are running a 400 but how much HP do you think they would support on a regular 350? Also how hard was it to rewire your harness for the new ECM? Make sure you kick out what year thermostat housing you had to use. Inquiring minds wanna know.

Alex

GhoSSt

iTrader: (1)

Nothing WRONG with them. But they only support about 320hp or so. The 29lb'ers from the big block kit are the way I'm going to have to go. They support about 450hp or so.

I used the 'Early Style Thermostat Housing' from the generic performance parts section, it closely resembles the 60's style Corvette thermostat housing. The ECM is easy, you change 2 pins, (I have it written down at the house).

Kelly 'GhoSSt' Rosato

Tas

I suppose they have them so small because with the angle they are set at, the TBI interfers with the fuel rail. what about changing the angle of the injectors to fit the larger ones?

------------------
-Tas
'89 Formula WS-6
[soon to be Performace Red =) ]

305, TBI, auto, 14x3 chrome flat based open element with K&N, functional Formula hood, cross-flow Flowmaster, '99z28 rear pipes and tips....

Super GRK_Taz World
EFI & Intake Options
AOL IM: superGRtaz
ICQ 82881207

GhoSSt

iTrader: (1)

Well, here's the BEST part. They're (Edelbrock) is sending me the 29lb injectors for FREE ! All I have to do is send my unfired, unused 19's to them and they swap em out.

So, that obstacle is overcome. I'm going to document everything down to the last part number so that we can reproduce this kit for F-bodies and B-bodies over and over. Woo Hoo

Kelly 'GhoSSt' Rosato

GhoSSt

iTrader: (1)

Here's the funny thing. For a 454tbi swap. They use the SAME 19lb injectors. Only on the 502 upgrade do they use the 29's. Interesting...

Kelly 'GhoSSt' Rosato

Tas

sweeeet. Hey add me to ICQ I put in a request I hope those tiny injectors turn out to be good. that was the only part of that setup I didn't like. Are you going to use a 670 TBI base or stock one? will the 670 fit?
-Tas

GhoSSt

iTrader: (1)

Tas, I'm not running ICQ right now. Since I don't have a cable modem my dialup is too slow, so I keep TCP/IP items to a minimum. I'll keep posting here and on the egroups GM_TBI list as I go. But I promise, there'll be a exhaustive writeup when I'm done.

The intake is a LITTLE too small for the 670 Holley as it is. Its a 1.8 inch bore (call it 1-13/16ths or so), I'll have to take it to 2 inches somehow, but the drivers side wall is kinda thin. A spacer might be the solution.

Kelly 'GhoSSt' Rosato

DhoSSt

you guys better not be talking smack about me again
.
.
.
.
.
.
jk

GhoSSt

iTrader: (1)

Of couse we are.

And for anyone that cares, the phone number for Magnetti-Marelli/USA is 919-776-4111

Kelly 'D/GhoSSt' Rosato



[This message has been edited by GhoSSt (edited December 06, 2000).]

GhoSSt

iTrader: (1)

UPDATE:

I went to a local speedshop today (the ones that do my head porting) and they happened to have a 670 CFM analog TBI setup on the counter. So I brought the MPFI intake in and we bolted it all up and with the Holley gasket, the TB works out of the box with the 2" blades. Its VERY close on the passenger side front, so what I had them do was scribe the intake with the throttlebody mounted and they are going to do quick port match for me.
On a less pleasant note, I just added up the bill on the 400 and the heads, conversion roller cam, studs, tacked on 2400.00. Ouch.

Kelly 'GhoSSt' Rosato

FastBroker

GhoSST,

So for the $750, you got:

The manifold
8 injectors
all rails/hardware/regulator, assembled
The MPFI-to-TBI splicing harness?
misc installation hardware

Is that correct?

GhoSSt

iTrader: (1)

Actually, it was 775. I also recieved the injector block off plate for the TBI unit, an EGR gasket and the Howell TBI troubleshooting manual (simplified version of the GM tables).

Please keep in mind I had to convert to the 7747 ecm (no one has any hacks for my '93 Caprice ecm). In doing so I have to switch 2 pins (no biggie). So when I bought the 7747, I also purchased the stock 350 MPFI chip from Howell. (If a bin gets mysteriously posted, I dunno nothing)

(Items with an * by the price are for the B-body conversion only)

From there, I bought:

'91 TBI F-body upper radiator hose (7.00*),
New thermostat housing (8.00*),
160 degree stat (3.00),
New intake manifold gaskets (15.00),
New Holley 2" TBI gasket (16.00),
Had the manifold gasket matched to a 2" TBI (62.00),
An F-body type distributor, (190.00* - This is because the Caprice distributor has a larger diameter shaft that only fits the Caprice TBI intake, I used the Proform from Jegs)
8 feet of Aeroquip AN6 hose, (24.00 - Blue, 250psi, this is to make the lines between the fuel rails and the TBI lines)

An assortment of AN6 to barbed fittings (45, 90, 120 and 180 degree) of which I'm not sure which 2 I'll be using yet and I don't want to be caught short on a weekend.

A word of warning. The TBI/TPI fuel lines on an F-body come into the engine compartment on the drivers side of the block (TPI at the front, TBI, I dunno). On the Caprice, the fuel lines come out right behind the battery on the passenger side frame rail. So what I have to do to make my intermediate lines may be different for you F-body guys.

I also STRONGLY suggest that you send the stock 19lb injectors that come with the MPFI setup back to Edelbrock. If yours are unused, they will send, at your request, 29lb versions. Since you need a custom chip for the MPFI anyhow, you might as well take the opportunity to get the heavier injectors since you may need them later as you increase the mods to your engine. You CANNOT use normal Bosch or Rochestor type injectors and Edelbock will make you buy the 29's (for almost 500.00) if you use the 19's at all.

So, all total, with the new chip, all the wierd parts, hose, new ecm, distributor, etc is about 625 bucks on top of the 775 for the Edelbrock parts. However, F-bodies can save about 205 bucks) because there are less parts to buy on that platform. If you have (or can get) a 7747 and can make your own chips, take another 275 off.

Kelly 'GhoSSt' Rosato

[This message has been edited by GhoSSt (edited December 08, 2000).]

Tas

what pressure are those injectors rated at? I ask because SVO ones are rated lower than GM so are really bigger than advertised if you wana put them in GM cars.

GhoSSt

iTrader: (1)

My guess is 45lbs. The reason I say that is because the Edelbrock kit provides a stock style 45psi pump to replace the (15psi?) TBI pump with.

Kelly 'GhoSSt' Rosato

GhoSSt

iTrader: (1)

Speaking of which. You'll need to upgrade to a TPI 45+psi fuel pump. On the early B-bodies, this can be done by simply getting a 94 - 96 sender/pump assembly. I got mine for free from a wrecked 1995 Fleetwood.

Kelly 'GhoSSt' Rosato

GhoSSt

iTrader: (1)

Here is the first mock up with AN fittings, Aeroquip hose, and new thermostat housing.



This one shows the port matching to the Holley 670tb



Hope this is begining to fill in the blanks.

Kelly 'GhoSSt' Rosato

snflupigus

so what do you have in the whole setup??

Cost that is.

[This message has been edited by snflupigus (edited December 09, 2000).]

GhoSSt

iTrader: (1)

Probably about 1300.00 or so. While this may seem excessive, It will make tuning for big mods in the future far easier. I think the biggest issues is the fact that the 6497 ecm is the Caprice is such an oddball. If I had a more standard widely used ECM, life would have been a LOT easier.

Kelly 'GhoSSt' Rosato

FastBroker

Why can't you just use/convert to a 7747??? Sorry if I missed the reason in an earlier post...

GhoSSt

iTrader: (1)

Err, reread up there. I AM converting to a 7747. There are some neat features in the Caprice ecm but it goes away.

Kelly 'GhoSSt' Rosato

[This message has been edited by GhoSSt (edited December 11, 2000).]

GhoSSt

iTrader: (1)

In a bit of unrelated information. I think I've found an interesting tidbit of curiousity. The early 90's Caddys has a 4.1/4.8 FI system called MPFI. They use a modified TBI throttlebody with 8 injectors. I think the passages are VERY close to 2" and plenty of them are available at your local junk yards. The hard part is that the linkage looks more like a TPI TB linkage, than a TBI setup. The IAC is also different.

Kelly 'GhoSSt' Rosato

[This message has been edited by GhoSSt (edited December 11, 2000).]

Scott C

Nice porting on the TB base of the intake! That should work fine for a 2.00" bore. I was concerned about that issue!

GhoSSt

iTrader: (1)

Thanks, MadCap did that part for me. I'm actually going to take new pictures tonight and upload them to my server to replace the 2 you see up there. I have everything in place now, the EGR setup, the final fuel line configuration, the custom upper radiator hose, etc.. Gives you a much better view over all of how its going to look.

Kelly 'GhoSSt' Rosato

Tas

GhoSSt you talking about this thing? http://members.tripod.com/GRK_Taz/caddytbi.jpg its on my efi page. damn I need a place to post pics from. stupid Lycos.

[This message has been edited by Tas (edited December 11, 2000).]

GhoSSt

iTrader: (1)

Yes, its from that setup, but the TB doesn't have ANY provisions for TBI type injectors.

Kelly 'GhoSSt' Rosato

snflupigus

that tbi has a plunger for idle too, instead of a iac. a gm tech told me that when i went to talk to em about redesigning the tbi. i dont know first hand.

GhoSSt

iTrader: (1)

Just an FYI, after examining the situation, I made the decision to have the Edelbrock intake machined to accept the Caprice distributor. This knocks 120.00 of of the price (about 50.00 to have it machined, but I don't have to convert to the F-body distributor.

I'll post a new picture in this message when i pick up the manifold on Wednesday.

Kelly 'GhoSSt' Rosato

GhoSSt

iTrader: (1)

You can see where I had to enlarge the distributor for the Caprice distributor.

This is the final mock up. We install it Saturday. Wish me well.

Kelly 'GhoSSt' Rosato



[This message has been edited by GhoSSt (edited December 28, 2000).]

C h r i s

What is the latest on this?

Tas

geeze back from the dead

C h r i s

Ha! Looks like I was searching old posts when I responded to this thread. I remember seeing the last post was in December . . . . December 2000!.

My interest lies in taking the Holley 9901-101-1 intake, 9900-172 fuel rails, OEM injectors, 454 or suitable large bore gutted TBI, TPI harness and GM computer (maybe Accel Computer?) to make my own PFI for less than the ~$2000 it currently takes to do PFI on a small block. I haven't found anyone whose done this setup (I have seen the LT1 intake swap though). My only experience with FI was when I had a '89 Formula 350 but unfortunately that was shortlived.

Guess I should start a new thread.
Chris
'78 'Bu
'68 Chevelle SS396

GhoSSt

iTrader: (1)

Err... Define "latest"

Its been in my car for over a year. I like it. I finally got a great chip from Ed Wright (he had a MPFI 383 on the dyno, and its worked good for me). I'm still using a 7747ecm and I'll be swapping to an LT1 intake to see if it helps. I'll probably sell the Edelbrock setup at some point.