hey guys, Just wanted to know if Edelbrock Tubular Exaust System would be a good first upgrade and would it actually make a difference that I will feel in the car? your choice on first upgrades are wanted. Please help. Thanks guys
Chris Murphy

 

first upgrade = open element

 

Dude, please look at the posts before you post a question like that. You're probably the 10th person this week to ask that exact question. We've answered it so many times.
https://www.thirdgen.org/messgboard/...ML/000796.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/messgboard/...ML/000851.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/messgboard/...ML/000816.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/messgboard/...ML/000792.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/messgboard/...ML/000812.html
Those are a few things I would read first. There are also posts about cat-back systems and headers. A good idea is to do both headers and cat-back at the same time. Also getting a 3" cat helps out the whole system. Basically a cat-back will make your car sound more agressive but it won't add much hp since the big problem is the stock y-pipe and it's T connection (WHAT THE #$@% was GM thinking when the made that?)

------------------
, Jon (91 RS too many mods to list)
Dale Earnhart, you have done so much, you will be missed.

 

Yes, please always do a search before posting. Usually you are not alone with your question. And this is the most popular question here, so some of us that visit the page everyday, get kinda tired of seeing the same thing all the time. Not to be a **** but, im just pointing out the obvious.

Those links that jprevost posted should help you.


ON ANOTHER NOTE.

Its great to see so many newbies coming around with tbi. welcome.

just dont give up, or listen to people who dont know what tbi is.

 

o, and open element tech article is in my sig.

------------------
Dale Earnhardt, #3 has crossed the finish line with a victory.

IM: snflupigus | ICQ: 96787192

Snflupigus.com

Open Element Tech Article

ENGINE SPECS:
Stock Rating: 170bhp & 255ft-lbs
305 TBI,Open Element,K&N 14x3,Hypertech Stage I,454 GM TBI
Now Rating: A Little More

STEREO SPECS:
JVC Kalmeleon kdlx3,Infinity Kappa 2way 6x9's,PPI 4x6 Coaxials,PPI PC2400 AMP @ 2ohm
DEI Studio 12" 4ohm DVC,Custom Box:Exactly 1 Cubic Foot

 

Hey Chris. Sorry these moderators are such ******. I made a site about all the mods I have done to my 305 TBI. A lot of people say it helps them out a lot. So go check it out if u are having trouble deciding. I have the Edelbrock TES's and I like them. I have more info and tech stuff and pics about them at the second site in my sig. Hope it helps.

------------------
Eric Natzke
91 Firebird 305 TBI
"It Ain't Stock"
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/91firebird.html
For info on certain parts or mods go to the site below
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/modeval.html

 

come on now, we arent that mean.

We just want to keep all the long time hardcore tbi members here, and not upset at "clutter."

btw, eric used to be a jerkass, always postin nontech and fighting/flaming on the boards. (flaming = flamer = eric is queer ) now he's finally decided to help people and has made a very good site following his mods. its a good source for new guys like yourself for this very topic.

We like our tbi's and we have fun here as well as learn and talk tbi.

Once again, welcome.

 

hey how come when i first came here no one gave me a big happy welcome

n e way welcome to the boards and as a first mod i would recomend gears. If u have a manual tranny car get a good clutch , and if u have an auto a stall converter is always a good mod. Shift kits are also a great way to shave a little off the 1/4 mile time and everyone loves that second gear chirp

BTW everyone here luvs those open elements and the sound of them but i dont think they are all worth the trouble to put them on. It really doenst do much, just makes ur car louder.

------------------
1989 pontiac firebird
bright red exterior(just repainted)
grey interior
5 spd
305 TBI (stock)
WS.6 formula wheels
3.73 posi rear end
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/Mikey89.html
-------------------------
1985 trans am
factory bright yellow
4 wheel disks
16 inch wheels
305 TPI
power antenna and mirrors
t tops

 

You do understand that now I'm going to have to delete or move all your posts . Never call a moderator a ***** or you're gonna get in in the backdoor so to speak. j/k
It is true that Eric is the most non-tech guy on the board and I think all the locked threads I've done where originally posted by him, a few weren't but he's the problem child. Welcome to all those who never got a nice welcome!
I hope you read those links, they have all of our opinions on mods. BTY, open element doesn't just sound good, it does increase hp. Let's just say I was painting my air cleaner because it was rusty and I was at work, I needed to get some high temp engine paint so I jumped in my car not thinking that it didn't have the air cleaner on. I tried to pull out onto the highway like I would do every day but I just spun the wheels. I instantly remembered I didn't have the air cleaner on, duh, couldn't turn around though. Man the car had at least an extra 15-20hp at WOT, I also have headers so that is why the gain was pretty high. With open element I see 5-10 and for $15 I think it's the best bang for the buck on the market today.

------------------
, Jon (91 RS too many mods to list)
Dale Earnhart, you have done so much, you will be missed.

 

I disagree. In fact, i could be quoted in a recent post saying taz is the most nontech person here. . hmmm, lets tie a cool looking firbird, that probably doesnt even have tbi to tbi tech. LOL.

Lets just say, as long as you reveiw your own posts, and dont post flagrantly retarded nontech, we will be happy and not ******.

So? whats your first mod gona be? have you decided yet?

 

Just for that, I am going to start posting non-tech stuff so I can keep my repuation Nic.
Onefine8t9, I don't understand why u don't encourage the open element and have them keep the snock snorkel on there instead. Thats the most ridiculous thing I have heard in awhile. How can the stock snorkel be any better than the open element?
BTW: Have you even tried doing that mod to anyones car before?
------------------
Eric Natzke
91 Firebird 305 TBI
"It Ain't Stock"
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/91firebird.html
For info on certain parts or mods go to the site below
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/modeval.html

[This message has been edited by 91Bird305 (edited February 26, 2001).]

 

first good thing you did was come to this web site you'll learn alot about your tbi on this web site.
For the first mod that is EASY go with the open element trust me you'll like it. i listened to the people saying keep the snorkel and it sucks open element over snorkel any day.
Next mod you can do is a search on this web site there are alot of ideas you'll learn on this site!
Shawn

 

ya i tried the open element thing. We used the edelbrock elite series with a 14x3? K&N filter. It was ok but barely notice n e kind of performance improvement. I like the stock set up better becouse thats designed to pick up kooler more dense air from the out side where as the open element picks up the engines hot air. For the effort to put it in, it just doesnt seem worth it to me. It makes ur car hum really loud, i think its annoying. It just seems like there is too much talk about an air filter. Thats all it is, and yet there seems to be more tech talk about that than n e thing else on this board.

 

Um, it takes about 2 minutes to install. And where does that little tiny mini snorkel gonna pull more air than a open element? Have u measured that thing? its like 3-4 inches across and not even 1 inch high. Oh yeah, thats gonna suck a lot of cold air. And it won't be cold air thats for sure. Why? Because you have the heat stove hooked from the exaust manifolds right into the snorkel. Creating that once small bit of cold air into now a small bit of hot air. Which would I rather have? Um, I will take the open element which brings in a large amount of hot air. (Or if you have a cowl induction hood then it will be getting true cold air from off the winsheild when moving)
BTW: Where is the cold air rushing from in that part of the car?
------------------
Eric Natzke
91 Firebird 305 TBI
"It Ain't Stock"
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/91firebird.html
For info on certain parts or mods go to the site below
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/modeval.html

[This message has been edited by 91Bird305 (edited February 26, 2001).]

 

well eric this is one of those times when u are partially correct. I over looked the heat stove that goes to the manifolt to the factory housing. O well u win some u loose some ill still stay OEM though

 

I am always correct.

 

lol, nobody listen to Ohefine8t9, he doesn't like to mod his car. Most sorry, all the time he talks about the disadvantages of a mod. He thinks one disadvantage is enough to outweight the other multiple advantages of a mod. He's like a mother almost, "why bother doing anything if it isn't broken?"
This group of guys has turning into the anti-TPI/carb group and 8t9 is stuck on keeping the car stock . Eric, you forgot one other advantage...the price, $15 and you've got a great sound and more air flow. Stock unit is fine but it is a major bottle neck. 8t9, would you recomend doing the ultimate TBI mods that are free or are you against those too?

------------------
, Jon (91 RS too many mods to list)
Dale Earnhart, you have done so much, you will be missed.

 

The best mod you can make to your camaro is to sell it and get a Mustang. Now that's what a ***** would say. :P

 

naw im against those to. I mean im sure its fine if u want to pick up .2 in the quarter but i dont feel like ****ing with BS like TBI spacers open elements and ect.... It just seems like something a kid would do, No offence to the ones who did it. I am sure its a great start but just not my thing.

 

A kid huh? LoL, dude u just bashed about every person in here then. I think a kid would say, "don't do that, that is dumb" when he hasn't even done it himself. Hmm, yeah lets take advice from that guy, even though the guys that have actually done it enjoy the mod and say it was worth the money.

------------------
Eric Natzke
91 Firebird 305 TBI
"It Ain't Stock"
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/91firebird.html
For info on certain parts or mods go to the site below
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/modeval.html

 

im sure its worth the money and u might notice a little improvement i just said i didnt want to do it. What is the big deal about a TBI spacer and open element? Its nothing that would give u all that much if n e at all. Dont act like i dont know what these very minimal mods do. I know exactly what they do, i just wont waste my time with little stuff like that.

BTW no offence to n e one who took offence

 

Every little bit counts Mike. And doing little mods like these to start off with are great learning mods and are cheap too. Do you expect someone who just got their car and is learning to drive it is gonna know how to install headers,cam and heads? I DOUBT IT. Thats why we reccomend these mods first. Then u move onto bigger and better things. And your opnion doesn't help one bit when we are trying to teach them that.

------------------
Eric Natzke
91 Firebird 305 TBI
"It Ain't Stock"
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/91firebird.html
For info on certain parts or mods go to the site below
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/modeval.html

 

Hey,lets get back to yhis poor guys question.
The Edelbrock TES is an excellent upgrade for a first mod for a number of reasons:
1st:the completeness of the kit,hell they even give you three 90 degree boots for the plug wires to clear the headers so you don'have to buy new wires.
2nd:Any thing you do later will be supported by the exaust.
3rd:You may only see 15 peak horsepower,but the usable RPM is increased dramaticaly(after what I call "over the nose" horsepower could increase as much as 35 horsepower after 4500 RPM due to restriction of the stock T-crap "Y-pipe"
4th:The unmistakable sound of headers might even get you a date(chicks love Camaros)
Hope I can help.
E-mail with questions.(tech not chicks)

 

Im glad there are poeple here on these boards that are willing to help those out that are just starting out. I considered myself a beginner because just a year ago I got my hands on a real car; my 91 RS. I was trying to go fast on a 90 civic, please who was I fooling. But now that I have a real car I want to do whatever I can to make it go faster or sound faster. It is all gain, RIGHT?!! But I could only do it with the help of those who have the experince. I have the open element on my LO3 and I recommend it to every owner with tbi. IT simply looks good, sounds good, feels good and freaking cheap and easy to install. I havent gotten my self a K&N so i know im missing the real fun, but
OPEN AIR ELEMENT SHOULD BE THE FIRST MOD FOR EVERY TBI.

 

Oh,and for all you nah sayers the TES exhaust WAS my first mod on my 92 RS.
Not only did I go from from shifting out at 4600/4700 RPM to 5300/5400 RPM,everybody around town wanted to know what the hell I did to my car.And no I did'nt tell them I stuck a 350 in it.I think I got laid that night.I sure as hell was'nt concerned what an open element airfilter would give me,though I run one now because my engine is modfied enough if I did'nt run one I would LOSE POWER.

 

BONUS!(there is another cheap mod YOU can do under the air cleaner)
T&D PERFORMANCE makes a TBI injector spacer that goes in between the TBI "hat" and the actual throttle body(not the stupid spacer between the TBI and manifold)SUMMIT sells this,and I have installed many but I don't have a part number.You will gain only a few horses but the mixture starts to rock-n-roll
throttle response is noticeable,and like many of my early mods it definately accomidates later mods.It sells for $25 bucks.

 

This is what I'm talking about, all the little things add up. So what if adding an open element gets you .2 to a stock car. The gains from adding headers to a stock care are easily .3 tenths. Now put them together and you'll get even better gains because the work together. Probably running .6-.7 gain over stock. THAT is why it's worth doing the little things 8T9. Sure you could just save up for a 350 and do nothing to the 305 but that isn't what hot rodders do. I consider this site a place to mod and restore a car and they have there places. This post talked about performance so that is how it should get a performance reply, not a "it's not worth it" when it is. Nobody can say an open element is bad bang for the buck, they can say it's bad bang for mpg .
TBI spacers are also a good idea but I'd never buy one, it just looks too easy to make yourself. $70 for a TB spacer which is only a 1/2" plate with 3 tapped screw holes and 2 large holes drilled isn't a good investment. Going to a shop and asking they guys to make it is a much better idea and make it out of plastic, NOT ALUMINUM. Metal will make the ports longer but another reason for the spacer is to stop the transfer of heat to the TB unit and metal, especially aluminum, transfers heat better than plastic.

------------------
, Jon (91 RS too many mods to list)

 

lol you bad mouth the open element after not even doing one the right way. The edelbrock is drop base. I went through 2 before I found the PAW non-drop base one that let me get rid of that stupid restrictive spacer ring. And that loud hum sound kicks as s going under freeway overpasses. If anyone doesn't want to do an open element, they should at least look into getting a larger air cleaner housing such as one from a GM truck. The L03 air cleaner is just another piece of the GM puzzle to cork the 305 TBIs' HP to be less than the 305 TPI which is less than the 350 TPI.

It also acts as a muffler for the intake as everyone has discoverd when they got rid of it. I guess that is for all the older ladys that buy f-bodies (& other pony cars) because the big 3 stoped making RWD v8 cars like generation before us grew up in.

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-Tas
'89 Formula WS-6
[soon to be Torch Red with black hood and headlights =) ]

305, TBI, auto, 14x3 chrome flat based open element with K&N, Milodon 160* thermo, functional Formula hood, cross-flow Flowmaster, '99z28 rear pipes and tips....

Super GRK_Taz World
EFI & Intake Options
AOL IM: superGRtaz | ICQ 82881207

[This message has been edited by Tas (edited March 04, 2001).]

 

Actually, i wouldn't get anything from T&D. I bought a TBI spacer from them and I had to modify my throttle cables just to get it to work with my setup (its was to high and streched my throttle cables). I went to call their tech line and it was disconnected! I don't think there a very good business to deal with. Thats all I wanted to say.

------------------
Eric Natzke
91 Firebird 305 TBI
"It Ain't Stock"
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/91firebird.html
For info on certain parts or mods go to the site below
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/modeval.html

 

My friend the spacer I speak of is a little known mod.Like I said in my original posting it is NOT the aluminum spacer between the manifold and TBI unit(it is too tall anyway and only builds torque)it is a spacer between the Injector hat and the TBI main body,it looks like a "T" and goes where the injectors bolt to the main body.It raises the injectors(the "hat" I call it)away from the throttle blades,therefore increasing airflow through the main body And creating a better injector "cone pattern" during sustainged high RPM operation.
Call Summit racing and the tech guy will help you(wish I had the part #).Just tell him it is made of plastic and that it is not the TBI spacer everybody wastes there money on.
IT WORKS!!!!

 

I got that plastic injector spacer for a bit over $20. I haven't put it on yet though.

 

whats the part #

 

whats the part #

 

from PD Performance Products No. TDP-2457 according to my P.A.W. catalog.

it says:
"1/4" plate raises the injector housing of the TBI unit allowing 15% more air flow by the injectors for 2-3HP gain. Fits 1986-95 Chevy & GMC trucks w/ 4.3L, and 5.0-5.7: v8s Screws are included. Will not affect computer function. Can be used on cars & motorhomes if adequate hood clearance is available.

Your price................$24.95"

------------------
-Tas
'89 Formula WS-6
[soon to be Torch Red with black hood and headlights =) ]

305, TBI, auto, 14x3 chrome flat based open element with K&N, Milodon 160* thermo, functional Formula hood, cross-flow Flowmaster, '99z28 rear pipes and tips....

Super GRK_Taz World
EFI & Intake Options
AOL IM: superGRtaz | ICQ 82881207

 

OHHH, LoL. I didn't see the word injector. Sorry man. LoL.

------------------
Eric Natzke
91 Firebird 305 TBI
"It Ain't Stock"
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/91firebird.html
For info on certain parts or mods go to the site below
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/modeval.html

 

There was mention of a truck lid for the stock breather assy. I think this is the same as the LO5 police lid which I have on my LO3. This allows a taller filter [K&N-1500] which has very close to the same c.i. surface area of a 14x3 filter. This filter assy. fits under my stock hood and you can remove the spacer ring between the tbi unit and the breather assy for better flow. I removed the stock breather and as Eric mentioned the heat stove riser and added two snorkals for full 4" hoses that run to the radiator support. I cannot tell the differance only running one 4' hose with the LO3 though and it will rev to 6000 [scary though with 140k miles]. I have run a open 14x3 also and prefer the closed cold air set up. Its whatever you prefer after trying different things. As a previous reply said, Thats hot rodding! I have had the Edelbrock TES since 1995 and would recommend them. Order the ones for TPI to get the 3" outlet not the ones for TBI which have a smaller outlet. Take care of the rest of the exhaust, add gears/posi and you will be building a foundation for later mods and in the mean time will have a better pull through the gears, IE:FUN! I hope this helps and good luck with your project.

 

Here is what I did with my 88 RS. First was open element with k&n filter and the next was a full exhaust from Edelbrock (TES) and catback = ) It proved very good as I ran a 15.5@xxmph. I don't have the slip with me but It wasnt bad compared to what it will run stock (16.0 +++). ALso I had 3.73 gears which proved to be BAD. With a 305 TBI get 3.42's. Get a nice tuneup like accell/msd with bosch platinum plugs. Get a shiftkit and you can be low 15's. Or you can sell the pos 305 TBI and pick up a L98 = ))))) Just my 2 cents, btw I could run with stock irocs.

 

slow88rs,
how did the 3.73 gears prove to be bad? they are the perfect gear for a stock or lightly modded tbi car according to math and what has been proven at the track. with 3.73's the car will come through the traps the closest to the peak of it's powerband.

lata
tim

------------------
91 Camaro RS-LO3,Auto.
14.215@94.30 w/ 1.917 60'

Check Out The East Coast F-Body Nationals Home Page
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My MAFB.ORG Home Page
www.mycar.net/mafb/registry/detail.cfm?id=299

DSI Racing Home Page

www.geocities.com/foff667

 

You obiviously are flow good air and RPM(close to 5900-6000).
The 3.42's hold the LO3's torque peak at bay (I am just out of third before the traps).I think 3.73's would compromise.(BUT WHAT DO I KNOW.JUST AN OPINION!!!!).Thanks for replying to my topic.RENEGADES OF FUNK!!!