Ok, here i go.

Low end torque and throttle response increased, but car shifts at 4k instead of
4.5-5k. like it used to.
the engine sounds and runs smoother.
the exhaust note is a bit higher but cleaner.
it pulls great in the upper rpm range
no more lag or hesitation.
o ya, and i have a 454 tbi sitting in my living room.

I think I definately need a chip burner before putting that thing back on a 305.

I had the fuel pressure boosted, but dont know if it was lean or rich cuz i never checked, it was lean for a long time, but then i boosted it slightly above stock.

now the boosted pressure is over the sb tb unit, and it seems fine. also i didnt reset the computer.

all in all, i think the 454 was just too big for the computer/intake to do anything with. and it just seems to runs smoother. The performance feel may be from my foot having more pressure to push the gas down though since the spring is stronger on the sb tb.

Anyway, now i have a 454, and a smallblock tb ready for flowtests. And i hope to have my prototype tomorow.

But i need to order some blades and make a throttle shaft for it too. etc... before i can have em all flowtested. Maybe i can get dyno time after i have some $$ too. and run all 3 on the same engine. But it wont by my tired 305.

So, if you arethinking about spending money on holleys unit or a 454 for your stock or even slightly modified 305. DONT WASTE YOUR MONEY.

 

i know this isnt the chip board, but ive already made the post, and this is an afterthought question.

What would i have to change on the chip to get the most out of that large of a tb unit, and stock heads/cam? (assume a torker2 intake was on the engine).

 

Geee... You guys are finally starting to understand...


EDIT: Snuf, is that a GM 2" or a Holley 2"??? I would be interested in buying it IF it is a GM AND you want to sell it, of course... I am assuming that's what you want to do when you said it is on the floor. sorry if I am wrong.

EDIT@ You do NOT need a Torquer II. They SUCK compared to a regular Performer or RPM for a mellow engine like yours. TRUST ME. You kind of proved this by acknowleding that the 2" TBI is too big. Going to an RPM is actually too big for your combo, but will be ok and loose bottom end.

If you want to use the 2", you gotta:

Get more engine mods (heads/cam/etc)
Get 350cid motor with 300+hp possible
Get Performer or RPM intake
Burn a PROM for fuel and spark changes



[This message has been edited by FastBroker (edited March 30, 2001).]

 

Snuffy,

If you yourself believe that most DO NOT need the 2" TBI unit, why are you taking the time to make an even bigger/better flowing version than the 2"? IMO, the market that exists is ok for now and you could make money off it by selling the GM 2" TBI's from your dealer for a good price INSTEAD of making a new one that will need EXPENSIVE spare parts!!!!!!!!!! What happens if someone wears out the throttle shaft, throtle blades or, heaven forbid, the TBI casting itself... OUCH!!!


I just don't want to see you to waste your time/money, that's all.

 

I also heard that the Torker II's were not very good. RPM's and Performers I heard were a lot better. But thats just what I heard from a lot of people. Pablo praises them but well...his time slips show me how good they are.

------------------
Eric Natzke
91 Firebird 305 TBI
"It Ain't Stock"
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/91firebird.html
For info on certain parts or mods go to the site below
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/modeval.html

 

I don't think that the Performer + RPM's are better, I KNOW THAT THEY ARE!!!!

You can/will make more low-end torque with them than the TII and have the same top-end, in these "mellow" street engines. Only problem is it will be harder to hook-up with the added low-end.

The RPM's are good for more than 400hp EASILY for crying out loud. They are taller than the TII as well and the LAST thing you need is a short plenum with the TBI because the injector spray needs to disperse more into the airstream. With the TII, it does not have the time/space to do this, plus, the rear cylinders will get more gas, too, probably, with the TII.


Please don't a respond to this if you have never changed PERFORMANCE intake manifolds on an ALREADY BUILT-UP engine before. Pablo's combo seems ok for him, honestly, and he can PROM around it but I still wish I could talk him into a Performer manifold to see if his times improve... I say this because I have used Performers on 350cids with his exact SIS cam (ie, mellow, even for a 305) and they have made more OVERALL power than with an RPM manifold. So, I am suggesting that the Performer would be plenty for his 305 with the same cam. I would bet 2 dollars that he would have uncontrollable wheelspin if he installed that manifold, though, from the gains in torque, which MAY actually slow him down without chassis/tire changes.


[This message has been edited by FastBroker (edited March 30, 2001).]

 

the 454 will probably be for sale by the end of summer, it is the gm 454, and it would be for sale after i finish and have my design on the car.

i am designing a larger one, for RACING. It is roughly the same size as the dodge v10 throttle body i have recently learned. Also, im not only making the gigantic one, i also think that something between a 1 11/16 and 2" unit with enhancements could increase velocity into the manifold have no vacuum drop from restriction and be cheaper than holleys unit. Shafts etc.. will not be expensive, and sensors are gm from you "donor" tbi

I am talking to some supercharged 454 guys who will most likely be testing my larger unit. thats what it will be built for.

dont think im just going to make one and start selling them, i will test and compare on engine dyno etc.. I now have access to all of that.

Im not going to be discussing much more about it, since i am still in process of applying for a patent. Its not the size that makes my unit unique, its the way ive went about using an already thought up system. And how it is built and how it is assembled.

I smile, and think about it all day long, and stare at my foam mockup scale models everday trying to think of even more ways to improve it over the old system.

O YA, and i began saying months ago i beleive that the 2" is way too large for a 305. and 2" is not needed until you have a mildly modded 350. I only had it on mine because i put it on a long time ago before i had studied intake systems so extensively.

The 2" could however be used on such a small engine, but it would have to be built that way from the start, not added. The cam, chip tuning, heads, and intake would all have to be thought out together. And it could then be a TORQUE GOD of an engine with very good throttle response. The computer would have to be very fast also to adjust for the extremely rapid changes that would take place in the intake.

 

o, and fastbroker, I know MOST do not need a huge throttle body, but MOST people dont need NOS, or superchargers either. MOST people dont even need a fast car to be happy. MOST dont need an 800cfm carb either. BUT, that doesnt mean somebody shouldnt be making these things for the few who want them. (note didnt say need)

I know not a ton of people want a giant throttle body, nor do a lot need one. But some do, and whoever they are running 10's with tbi, i want my name on it.

 

I guess actual real world experience with the small tbi and big tbi on a modded 305 doesnt matter. Theories and guesses are better. Ive only seen nearly 2 inches of vacuum at wot with the small tbi with my own two eyes but i guess they must have been decieving me. Snuf, you didnt make any measurements other than your impressions of driveability so i dont think this is a fair comparison of anything

on my motor, small tbi made almost 2 inches of vacuum at 5500 or so
big tbi makes no vacuum

pretty simple to see which is better for my app.

 

btw im not saying the bigger one was better for your combo.. it might not have been, it might not have made it faster at all however i dont htink it would make it slower. but thats besides the point, there are no numbers involved here

and 91birdbrain305, give it up, you always have to chime in on posts acting like you know what you are talking about while slamming on others. I think a wiser course of action would be to keep your mouth zipped because you dont know jack, kid

[This message has been edited by Pablo (edited March 30, 2001).]

 

But when they/you crack the throttle to 10-15% and you are at a MAP of 100, you will see my point of view... You crack a 1-11/16" 10-15% and you are at a map of 40-50. Get my point, yet???

I hear what you are tying to do, I just don't think you need to do it. Dual 1-11/16" TBI's on a blower is MORE THAN enough to feed a pretty big motor. And if that is not enough, use dual 2". and the ECU CAN drive 4 TBI injectors, too...

I'd like to see the patent sketches when you are done, if that is ok. You could/should post them here NOW as if you have a lawyer and your papers are notarized/filed, your idea is ALREADY safe...

Just to let you know, for small run items (ie 50 units TOTAL to be made/sold) that are relatively inexpensive to duplicate, patents are A BAD IDEA. This is because your idea/drawings ARE MADE PUBLIC AND EASY FOR PEOPLE TO COPY when they get patented, but they cannot sell/profit from your idea, only use it for themselves/friends. and I'm not gonna get into the Asian rip-off thing.

Be CAREFUL!!! IMO, you DO NOT need a patent for this. I'm assuming your patent search lawyer gave you the "go ahead", BTW, right??? PLEASE tell me you did a patent search!!!!!!!!

 

My cousin works for price waterhouse coopers in dc as well as being an internal consultant for the city of dc. she went to PENN. One of her friends that she checks his papers for grad school chemistry stuff, works in the patent office. I will not need a lawyer for a while. Ive done a patent search online, and it will be inlcuded when ive filed my papers with the patent office, (which you dont need a lawyer for). You only need a lawyer when/if you need to argue your case with the patent office if there is something that they think is similar. She also has a friend that used to work in the engineering dept of the patent office, who now works for national hiway safty transportation board. She was a major player in the firestone recall. So i guess what im saying is that i have friends in the right places who are helping me out with patent application writing etc...

I also have agreements with my machinist. I dont think my design will be held up at all in the patent office, because it looks so different, if i cant get a utility patent, i think i will easily be able to obtain a design patent.

I only plan on making a few at first, but if i can get deals made with a distributor less ignition system engine control system maker. i may be selling a package deal. I also have plans in the works for opening a chevy specific performance parts store here omaha, this venture is not very far along, but it may be a new llc with my parents dealership and myself.

I also would like to sell some parts here thru thirdgen, like camaroz28.com does, but since im still in the preliminary planning stages for the other two plans, ive said nothing to dirk about this and dont know if he would be open to that idea.

O and btw, if you can build this unit after seeing one, or the plans, cheaper than i will be selling them. give me a call, and id like to know who is gona build it for you, because thats not going to happen.
Its not as simple as i had originally planned.

But, the exact drawings will never be posted here or anywhere else on the net. If you want to see them, youll have to go thru me or the patent office, or buy one and try to reverse engineer it.

Lets put it this way. I love cars, and i dont plan on working for anybody but myself after college. Fortunately my parents are interested and capable of helping make my dreams come true, so that i can focus the rest of my life around cars.

 

Pablo, I think I asked you before but where do/did you have your vacuum line attached to read your vacuum levels, on both units, pls...

I'm at 5250-5500rpm and don't see vac with my 350 right now with the XE350 cam and saw the same numbers with the 194/214 Edelbrock L05 cam... Well, I see a change of 2 MAP on the scantool, anyways.

 

o and pablo, yours is a unique set-up, and i unlike some value your experience and testing. You are correct, my opinions are based on theory and calculations and formulas, and are not hands on testing.
My car was NOT slower, but it runs and drives better now. It may or may not be stronger. The more i drive it, the more i think the lowend gain is not real, and is only because of the gas pedal feel.
also my highend hp is gone, i never thought i had any high rpm gain with the 454, now i know that in fact i really never had ANY power above 3k before with the 305, but did have at least some noticable highend (interstate acceleration) power with the 454. the 454 DID increase high end. and i think it helped from 1500rpm up. below that could have been fixed with chip.

drives better = no more lopey idle at stop lights or lagging at wot when not above a 200 degree engine temp.

My opinion is this. any gains by putting on a 454 and chip changes, could be equaled i think in changing the chip with the small block tbi. But maybe not, ive never tested it.

I would only tell somebody NOT to put it(454) on a stock 305, would tell them they dont NEED it on a modified 305 or a stock 350, but would recomend it for a mildly modded 350.



[This message has been edited by snflupigus (edited March 30, 2001).]

 

Snuff, I guess I'll get the drawings through the patent office if you cannot post them here for us to comment on/help the development. I am POSITIVE I know what your idea is anyway and rest assured, will not post it here for all to see until you do. Your idea is SAFE NOW, as you should know and you can ONLY BENEFIT from getting our input. 20 heads are better than 1...

If you did not do a REAL patent search, you are IN TROUBLE as if the idea is patented by a large company, like GM, FORD, BANKS, Lingenfelter, Shelby, they WILL LIKELY sue your butt.

You shall see. Anyone can get patent drawings, my friend. Anyone. And if you did not consulat a lawyer AT ALL for this, you are making a big mistake and/or may be wasting your time even filing. Even if it is a friend/family lawyer for free, ask around.

Patent experiences are fun but the fights/lawsuits that can arise are not. Be careful.

 

Like my setup?

------------------
, Jon (350 TBI!)
91 Red RS w/grey int, sq stereo (Alpine v12, kicker solo, MB quart premium etc)

• Holley 670 TB unit w/ 1/2" spacer/adapter
• Edelbrock RPM vortec intake
• 350ho 330hp vortec crate motor
• 8" harm. balancer
• Stewart stage 2 water pump w/160 thermo
• SLP tri-y headers to full 3"
• Rebuilt trans w/ SLP shift kit
• Centerline 16x8's all around
• 36/24 mm sway bars
• Full poly bushings, even motor mounts
• SLP LCA and panhard
• Alston SFCs
• Edelbrock 3 point STB
• Global west steering brace aka wonderbar
• Eibach pro kit springs
• Bilstien high perf. struts and shocks
• All this and I still have AC

My websiteAny questions?

 

JP = TBI350 = Long-sig boy...

 

my parents are in business with a banker/accountant/lawyer. He's a genious and is very well rounded.

Ive spoken to him in length, so much he almost started charging me hehehe .

Anyway, when you apply for a patent. It cost roughly 350 bucks, that includes a patent search. I will not officially apply until my cousins friend looks everything over and checks stuff out for me. I also will NOT sell any if i do not have a patent.

O, and like i said, im sure you could get the drawings afterwards, but why? ill be selling them then.

Fastbroker, you keep assuming im retarded or something. I know what im doing, dont worry about it ok.

I will show the design to people upon request via email, AFTER i file for a patent and or have a prototype built.

I know you want to see it, but since the last time i posted, its changed very very much, you may know the idea, but some of the details are very unique.


[This message has been edited by snflupigus (edited March 30, 2001).]

 

Hmm, is that why Fastbroker agreed with me? Dude, I don't know why anyone would follow ur setup. Your 94 trap speed and 14.88 and all that garbage u had done to ur engine and those are the times u pull. I don't get why people follow ur setup or u recommend it. Its all f'ed up.

Anyways, I wasn't basing my opionion on fact, it was just on what MANY others have said about the Torker II's. I take that majority and make an assumption. Just like if lots of people said "SLP are a b*tch to install" Then I would assume they were a b*tch to install. Why would I want to go by them and test them out for myself? Makes no sense. Thats all I was trying to say. wise guy