Just a thought - I'll probably get flamed for putting this out there, but here goes...

I'm sitting here spending time and $$ on mods for my 305 and thinking about spending more money for more mods, all in hopes of making some 2xx hp at the rear wheels, maybe even 300hp someday after some major investment.

Then I think, wouldn't it be cheaper and easier and faster to sell the 3rdgen Formula, get an early 4thgen LS1 or LT1 car and have more power than I would probably ever get from this one (not to mention a newer car)?

This thought ever cross anybody else's mind? I'm gonna stick with the 91 Formula cause its the car I've wanted since I was a kid and I kinda like tweaking things on weekends, even if I'm wasting my money in the scheme of things. Is it the same for you guys, or do some people get stuck in a modification frenzy, desparately trying to beat their old dog into running faster?

Just curious to see what other people think...

------------------
Joel Geerling
Red 91 Formula, 305 TBI
Edelbrock 14x3 open element
TBI 1/2" spacer
Hypertech street chip
Crank/Alt Pulleys
*
Exhaust is next!

 

You wanna talk wasting money? Buy an LS1, and spend $400 for a cam, $450 for a set of headers, and there aren't any aftermarket intakes (yet).
I'll prefer to beat my old dog. Meanwhile, beating the new dogs in the next lane.
EDIT: "Devil's Advocate"? You called?
------------------
No guts, no glory.

[This message has been edited by NTChrist (edited November 08, 2001).]

 

It crosses probably almost everybody's mind. I think what it comes down to is, if you like your car.

 

i think you guys are a buncha nut monkies...



cough.. that wouldnt be an LT-1 under that hood of yours joel?



thats my plan, 94 Vette LT1, LT4 heads, and crane cam.

but yes, all people would consider just gettin a fourth, boo i say, not too mention try to work on one... DAM what a bitch.
LS1 too exspesive to Mod, LT-1 for cheaper does the same.

thats my story,

 

I thought of that too.
Most ls1's are pumping 300+ hp at the rear wheels!!

 

they have the LS6 intake, Holley has an aluminum one that should be out, The vortec truck intake is about as tall as TPI if you put an LS1 in a 3rdgen. Its its good for 30HP.



------------------
-Tas
'89 Formula WS-6

305, TBI, 700R4, P.A.W. 14x3 open element with K&N, Milodon 160* thermo, functional Formula hood, cross-flow Flowmaster, '99z28 rear pipes and tips, Hooker 1-5/8" 50 state legal headers, Dynomax 3" I pipe (PN 44063 and 43248)
Super GRK_Taz World
F-Body Dual Exaust
EFI & Intake Options

 

If you are not mechanically inclined and don't work on your own car. 4th gen is the way. Most of us work on our cars and prefer the 3rd gen body over the 4th gen. I have considered the switch myself on numerous occasions (usually after spending 3 hrs under the hood busting knuckles on this snail of a car). But if you look under the hood of one you will realize that GM actually made something harder to work on than a 3rd gen. The 4th gen looks like its even harder to work on than my wifes V6 Fiero (which is far worse than a 3rd gen).

 

FiReBReTHa - that's true; I didn't think about that. I poked around under the hood of a friend's 4thgen - not much room at all. Made me quit complaining about ripping my arm up changing my plugs...

 

The 4th gen motor has to come out from the bottom with the crossmember,so this eliminates the option for most of us to swap engines at home! That's the main reason I'll hang on to my third gen.At least I can still drag out the cherry-picker and pull the motor in an afternoon,without access to a lift.
-Rich-

 

Um, a buddy of mine has this and he runs, well just look.
"2001 Pewter Camaro Z28 A4: A whopping $187 in mods: 12.785 @ 109.6mph
Best MPH: 110"

------------------
Eric Natzke
91 Firebird 305 TBI
"It Ain't Stock"
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/91firebird.html
For info on certain parts or mods go to the site below
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/modeval.html

 

It may seem cheaper to go with a 4th gen initially, since it take a little money to get a thirdgen to perform like a fourthgen. But think about the other costs of owning a fourthgen, like insurance. Sure you might get awesome gas milage, but that's doing nothing for you if your insurance payments are 200 a month. That's why I like the RS. The insurance companies think that it's a slow car. Little do they know....

 

Look at it this way.

I spent $2000 for a car that I've wanted since I was a kid.

Here's a quick list:
-89K Miles, a 4th gen with the same amount of miles would cost say at least $5500 if you found a good deal.

-$3000 TBI 350 HO engine swap, including the prom work, headers, blah blah

-$1000 paint job.

BAM! I got the car I want, the way I want, for just a little more than a 4th gen, and it will outrun a 4th gen.

------------------
1989 Pontiac Firebird Formula LO3/700R4
-180 degree stat, Hooker Cat-Back, Wonder Bar

http://www.geocities.com/krt80/

[This message has been edited by Keith5 (edited November 09, 2001).]

 

Um, afraid u still won't be outrunning a 4thgen since u totally skipped suspension mods.
So tack on another $2500.00 for slick and a decent set of tires/rims ,torque arm,lca's,sfc's and sway bars.
You figure if u want to have a good set of tires, good luck finding them for a 15x7 rim so u would have to upgrade to a 16x8, then getting a good set of tires, and then all the suspension goodies to hook like a 4thgen. We still in the ball park after adding that? It is a rough estimate. But just throwing an engine in and paint job is not gonna put u into high 12's low 13's. You gotta do ur transmission too, because that son of a b*tch will never hold if u want to push them numbers. Plus add the posi+gears. So thats another 400.00 bucks.

I hate to say it, but getting a 4thgen WOULD be cheaper. But I would rather take the time and money building a sweet thirdgen then having another 13 second 4thgen on the road.
------------------
Eric Natzke
91 Firebird 305 TBI
"It Ain't Stock"
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/91firebird.html
For info on certain parts or mods go to the site below
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/modeval.html
[This message has been edited by 91Bird305 (edited November 09, 2001).]

 

Hmmm... isn't this a 3rd gen site? Oh yeah it is. If we wanted to ditch em and go 4th we're in the wrong place. We have TBI too so you should know that we're all beyond help, hehe. I'm stickin' with my car, the 4th gens are too tame looking IMO, except SS and Ram Air TAs. There all fast though.

 

Or you could buy an Astro van with a blown motor for $100 and put an LS1 in it like this one guy did who posts on the Astro forum. Just think you can hual 6 sheets of 4x8 plywood and run a 12!

All for under $6000 if you want to deal with the motor mount nightmare.

Working on my van is ten times easier than ANY 3rd Gen I've touched. No flame, just my experience. But if you want handling, I suggest you skip this post because that's not what an Astro is gonna getcha!

Just my $.02



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'92 Astro, GM crate 350, Performer TBI intake, MSD 6AL, 3.42's, 2.5" exhaust, Flowmaster 40 2 chamber, B&M 2nd stage shift kit, 255 60 R15 tires on AR-727's, Polished & Bored TBI, Custom EPROM in progress

 

My car has WS6 springs and swaybars stock, 16x8 inch wheels stock.

$2500 dollars in suspensions mods to keep up with a stock 4thgen? Dude they have the same rear suspension we do.

SFC's $350 counting installation
Posi rear end $200 used
Paint it my self -600.
Street Tires $0, the stock 4thgens have the same tire size and tread I do.

I wanted to whip a modified 4th gen that's when I would start with slicks and put a cam in that 350HO.

[This message has been edited by Keith5 (edited November 09, 2001).]

 

I hate these people who think you need all these mods. I seen a pieced together bird with broke sway bars and 15x7" tires get low 13s. (Converted to sea level would be mid 12s) He was out running several 4rth gens. He had a rebuilt 350 2 bolt with edelbrock intake and a rebuilt holley 600 cfm carb. He got the car for $500 out of a junk yard. Spent $1000 on the motor. He got a posi off of a GTA for $300. Thats $1800 for a fast car. All he needs now is paint and headlight motors.

 

4th gens look nasty, I don't like. Interior is so so but I'd take my 91 dash and gauges any day.
The best part about a thirdgen is how flexible they are as far as performance. You can have a turbo v6, a 4 banger (yuck), a v8, TPI, TBI, carb, everything bolts in including a big block!
You can make it handle over 1g for little $!!
You can also make it a drag car only. You can do anything and everything. The only downside is the stereo options but even that has been lifted with the DJSexay kick panels!
There is a reason why our cars have the title "faster, better, cheaper!"

 

Well, of *COURSE* I'd love to have an LS1. But for me it's a lot more than the performance of the car that's important. It's working on a car that makes it great in my opinion. SBC's are really, really easy to modify/work on/yatta yatta, especially compared to the more sophisticated engines of today. Sure, it's not as easy as a VW Beatle engine, heh, but they're certainly not hard. And I love tinkering, so I'll always have a project car.

And maybe someday I can afford that LS1, too. heh

------------------
89 iroc-z 305 tbi
k&n filtercharger, open element air filter. nuffin' else

 

heres how i look at it.

what do you drink?

If you like to drink hard alcohol, then buy a 4gen with an ls1.

If like beer, love your thirdgen.

Besides the economical point of view.

I like beer. You get to enjoy yourself, over a period of time before you reach your ultimate goal, getting drunk. Now, with hard alc. you get drunk much faster, and dont get to enjoy all that time having a buzz. (modding your thirdgen with a normal v8)

If you like to just grab the everclear, and go straight to drunk, grab that bottle of 4th gen, and have at it. But youll miss all that time in between of seeing what your little elbow grease gets you every weekend.

I would love to have an ls6 in my thirdgen, but... I bought a 1st gen instead. Gotta love the buzz, i got one in each hand baby.

 

i thought about switching not to long ago, but then i went to the track and beat up on a few of them in short times and railed soem jack *** with a brand new mustang gt and realized that this motor has all the potential to hang nuts witht he "big boys". besides, there is nothing funnier than answering"who built you 350?" with "gm built my 305"

later
tim

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91 Camaro RS-LO3,Auto
New Times Coming Soon!
Check Out The East Coast F-Body Nationals Home Page
www.geocities.com/njspeeder
My MAFB.ORG Home Page
www.mycar.net/mafb/registry/detail.cfm?id=299
DSI Racing Home Page
www.geocities.com/foff667

 

I can shed a little light. I've had a 4th gen. Not like anyone else on here hasn't, or doesn't.

Anyway, it was my third Camaro. My first was a 74 406ci, th400, 3.90 rear end with a mini spool (no rain or snow for that car ) and a 2800 stall TC. Never took it to the strip.

My second was a '90 3.1L V6 auto with T-tops. Never bothered taking it to the strip either.

I traded that for a 94 Z28 (LT1), 6-speed, 3.23 rear end, & it had t-tops. I took it to the strip. My first time. I ran a best of 14.56et. Nothing was done to it but a K&N filter and a skip shift eliminator. FUN CAR!!! Good for the chics!!!!!

But now I'm back to a 3rd gen. About a month after I bought it I baselined it at the strip. 16.99et was my best. That was before any mods, plus the throttle cable was binding up. It jumped outta the housing.

I was kinda frustrated at first, but I knew it wasn't gonna be a great run. Especially since my first time at the strip I had a decent performing car.

But I still love 3rd gens the most. They just have more personallity. And as said earlier, they are much cheaper. I was 25 when I had the '94 and the insurance was about $160/mo. Now I'm 30 and I pay $130/mo for my '92 RS and a '95 Monte, LS.

I have a lot more fun with my car now. I love turning a wrench. If that's what you like, then stick with your 3rd gen. It takes less money to build up the engine. Yea you gotta do the suspension, trans, and engine in your car now. But just think about when you're done. You can't put a price on personal satisfaction.

AJ

------------------
92 RS w/t-tops 305 TBI Auto.
175K miles and don't burn a drop o'oil
-K&N Truck filter #1500 w, open ele.
air cleaner
-Dynomax 2 1/2" cat-back
-B&M TransPak
-Jet Stage2 Chip
-180* T-Stat w/ 185* Fan Switch
-JVC CD--Alpine speakers & 4ch. amp
Rockford Punch 100. 1 - MTX 12" sub

 

Thats why I decided to stick with mine. When its done and over it will be something to look at and respect.

------------------
Eric Natzke
91 Firebird 305 TBI
"It Ain't Stock"
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/91firebird.html
For info on certain parts or mods go to the site below
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/modeval.html

 

I am in a good position to speak on this. I have both: a modded 350tbi RS and a 94Z28 (6M). Simple, I love them both. Sure, I was a little upset when I drove the 94 and found out how fast and fun it was WITHOUT mods as my 89 was WITH mods. But it comes down to this: if your like your car, then mod it. I still spend money on my 89, just added that vacuum regulator and a new ignition setup (it was free) among other things. I also mod the 94 too. They are both great cars, but nothing beats taking the tops out of the 89 and listening to that open element suck air at wot!!!!! So don't bother comparing money vs. mods. This hobby is about making yourself happy. And hey, when I am driving my 94 and have a close race (win or lose) with any thirdgen I know he has put some work into it and tip my hat at him.

Jerry

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1989 Lt. Blue RS 5-speed
355 crate motor, Compucam 2040,
PST Front suspension,
Hotchkis rear suspension,
EDL T.E.S., 3" Flowmaster
Harwood cowl hood

1994 Black Z28 6-speed
Nothing major, but FUN!