Hey us i have really been strugling with this question. i have don lots of research but no concrete answers yet. I am trying to get 400+ HP with my 91 RS buy dropping in a 350 with AFR heads, a big cam, and like an edelbrock Performer dual intake manifold. nowmy problem is finding a TBI that will support 400 HP. Ppl have told me 454 TBI, Holly 670 tbi,holley pro-jection....any one wanna give me final answer?

 

why not use a single plane multi port intake? $250 from holley.

------------------
-Tas
'89 Formula WS-6

305, TBI, 700R4, P.A.W. 14x3 open element with K&N, Milodon 160* thermo, functional Formula hood, cross-flow Flowmaster, '99z28 rear pipes and tips, Hooker 1-5/8" 50 state legal headers, Dynomax 3" I pipe (PN 44063 and 43248)
Super GRK_Taz World
F-Body Dual Exaust
EFI & Intake Options

 

I am trying to put together a 400hp TBI system as well. I have the 454 TBI and a LT4 hot cam which I hope will be very driveable on the street. I think I am going to use the Weiand 7525 single plane manifold that everyone seems to like http://www.weiand.com/HiOctn/ProdLin...AMSM/7525.html

The 454 TBI should be sufficient since it has the same size throttle bores as GM's ramjet 502 525hp engine.

I also plan on using the AFR 190 heads since they flow almost as much as the 195 but should give better torque since they have a smaller runner. I am not going to get radical with the bottom end since I don't plan on any power adders on top of this monster.

 

I am with you guys. I now have a carbed ZZ4 block, ZZ4 cam with 1.6/1.5 GMPP Aluminum SA roller rockers and Fastburn heads. 400+hp with a carb on the dyno. I build this engine specifically to get a 400hp dynoed TBI... I am using the AirGap Vortec manifold and am looking for a 454 GM TB unit now. Actually runs ok with the smaller TB but only drove it for a short time on a very incorrect PROM.

FYI, I tried the HotCam and it is rather large but necessary for small-runner heads. nto much vacuum at idle, I mean. lots of PROM work will be required, but that should not be a deterrant to you. I just figured I'd use the mellowest cam I could with 112LS to get the 400hp as it would be as TBI friendly as possible and when I got 380hp out of a GMPP FastBurn 385, I knew that the addition of roller rockers all-around an 1.6's to get more intake lift would get me 400hp, and it did.

I'll keep all updated but I need help getting a COMPLETE 454 TB hopefuly with 90pph injectors.

[This message has been edited by fast_broker (edited December 06, 2001).]

 

I lucked into mine on ebay for $125 with injectors. It has the IAC but not the TPS sensor. I still have to find the sensor connectors since they don't look like mine.

 

125 bucks is about right, if you can just find them...

 

I thought you might be interested in the difference between these two heads. The 190's are designed to work with a standard height intake port while the 195's have a slightly taller port to be used with intakes such as the Edelbrock Victor JR.

The 5cc difference should not a consideration in the choice when deciding between the 190 and 195... the intake you are planning to run should be the deciding factor. In your case, the weiand street ram 7525 intake should be used with the AFR 190 head as the 195 heads port is too tall and creates a very small gasket sealing surface at the top of the port.

I'm speaking from experiance here, get 190's for the street ram, performer and other similar port height intakes... get 195's for victor jr type intakes. When in doubt, take a look at the gasket that is called for for both the heads and intake.

AFR made a mistake in my case and specified the wrong head for my intake (also a 7525)and I am very near to having a gasket sealing issue.

 

Dan how well does your AFR 7525 combo run. I choose the 190's since their flow rating was nearly the same as 195. I was unaware of the port difference. Just got lucky there. Should have mine up and running by March hopefully. I think it will be an awesome engine. Of course anything would seem awesome after this L03. But I am trying to get everything to run a nice 2000-6000 power range which should still drive great on the street.

 

I heard aluminum roller rockers wear out faster (like after 30,000 miles). Is this true?


------------------
91RS convertible 355 TBI 65# inj. custom compcam grind .480/.480, Edelbrock TBI manifold, open element, hedman hedders, Y-pipe, flowmaster single chamber, cop car chip, Accel coil, wires, vacuum controlled FPR. 2.02/1.6 cast iron heads. Engine specially made by Pflugerville machine shop. Forged bottom end, balanced. Coming soon: , Torque converter, DIY PROM, bigger TB.

 

Well it ran but I had some issues that I have yet to work out with the injectors cutting out on the 2bbl tbi... Starting to get motivated again so maybe I'll get to it this winter. Its not tuned yet so I cant tell ya how its going to turn out. I can say this... on the low end throttle response is incredible. Good luck on yours and let me know how it turns out.

 

I tend to doubt you'll do that (400 real HP)

2 90#/hr injectors will support 360 HP.
You'd have to get your BSFC down to at least .45. Takes a damn sharp tuner to do that and has to have exactly the right combo..

I ran 13.7s with a *670* throttle body and was at like 325 HP. I could see a 13.4 possibly a little faster (350 HP) and maybe a real good 60' 13.2s but that's about it.
It also took about 400 chips to get good manners and 13.7s with TBI
HTH

 

Quote "You'd have to get your BSFC down to at least .45. Takes a damn sharp tuner to do that and has to have exactly the right combo.."
Would i have to do that to switch to 454 TBI, and would i need any other stuff or will the 454 tbi go right in the stock TBI place. Also would i need and adapter for it to work on stealth manifold?

 

Grump, do you beleive those injectors should not be run at higher pressures to support more HP?

 

I think I got 350hp with a mellow 350cid on a 2bbl Projection 2D, the latest "shiny" digital version of the 670cfm 2" bore... I actually have one of those systems for sale with an extra ECU and an extra O2 sensor.

Not sure if it'll reach 400hp. Probably could with additional FP (from 15psi to 19.5psi) to get 100pph out of the 90pph injectors but Holley injectors have long-term issues with high pressure. Also, the connections on the ProJection systems must be better than NASA connections...

 

https://www.thirdgen.org/gmecm/

Search for 17112560

According to his info and flow testing those injectors will move enough fuel for 425+ hp at higher pressures.

You better count on replacing your stock TBI fuelpump with a HiPo unit like the Walbro.

 

what about the 4bbl TBI.Dont eally know what it isbut som one suggested it to me. any one wanna give me sme info and if it may support my 400 HP?

 

Can it be done, yes.
Is it an easy thing for some to master, NO.

You want to get into battery voltage corrections etc, sure. If you know what your doing.

Can you?. Tough call, given time maybe. To start off expecting success with a first attempt at proming and wanting to do all the good stuff the first time out is a short cut to disaster. I've done it, and I've seen others do it (have disasters). I have the attitude, that some motors are just mules to be learned on, and others aren't to be experimented with. I popped the headgaskets in my car, just finding out how much boost I could run on pump gas, but it wasn't a big deal since I was looking for a limit.

My first EFI stuff on my own was a 747, and at 325 HP, I was resonably successful at it, I can't picture a new guy successfully doing much more then that. Of course, now adays there are enough folks for support to make it a lil easier, when I started wasn't anyone around to ask anything of.

 

I generally whittle an adapter out of 1/8-3/6" AL plate. Hand drill, some bits, hole saw, and gaskets for patterns.

I use counterhead sunk bolts threaded up from the bottom, so if a nut were to fall off it would be less likely to do damage that way. Counter sink things enough to get the head up out of the air stream.

 

red loctite.

I think the Holley 85pph injectors will fail at high pressures over a rather short period of time. Plus, I am running into short pulse width problems at idle, I think. ie, the pulses are so short that the fuel delivery is not consistant.

 

Well this is discouraging. I might have to sell my thirdgen and buy one of those ugly 4th gens.

 

400hp can be done. When I get my 454 TB, I'll hit the dyno...


Anyone gone from a 350tb to a 454 tb unit without any other changes? If so, can I get any help on how to initially set the FP and/or change the PROM before I start the engine???

[This message has been edited by fast_broker (edited December 11, 2001).]

 

Fastb, come to Atco on Saturday and we'll talk about this stuff.

 

If I pass emissions I may come down. Couldn't get a 454 TB in time. I guess the 350tb is good enough to get there and put up a respectable time. I really need to chassis dyno the thing to get the PROM right. I was waiting for the 454 tbi so I didn't have to do it twice. If I can get a 454TB and chassis dyno time tomorrw or Fri, I guess I could get things done in time but my wife would KILL me. X-mas shopping needs to get done.

 

When it rains, it pours. I now have (3) 454 units available, from $89 - $155 in price. All would have to be mailed to me and none have ANY guarantee of operation. 2 have 90pph injectors, I believe, and the third has 80pph injectors. All have TPS and IAC motors and the cheapest one includes a MAP sensor/bracket, matched air cleaner with stud and a PARTIAL HARNESS?

What to do...

[This message has been edited by fast_broker (edited December 12, 2001).]

 

Give her the plastic, drop her off at a mall in NJ and tell her you'll pick her up in time for dinner! Women LOVE going to a new mall. Hell, tell her she can bring a friend as well... that should easy the pain!

She'll be doing what enjoys doing, you'll be doing what you love to do!!!

------------------
89 T-Top Firebird 305 TBI Project Car (with approval from my wife!)

 

She has the card at all times... It's the two and three-year olds that hinder her shopping this time of year. That's my job, either stay at home while she shops to watch the kids, or go shopping, again, to watch the kids. Literally trying to get a babysitter for all day Sat so I can go. Already have a trailer and the tow vehicle.

EDIT: Her friends/sisters are too smart to go shopping with her and our kids. Man oh man, things get broken...

[This message has been edited by fast_broker (edited December 12, 2001).]

 

i just need to say this.

I dont beleive that 2 90pph injectors using the vafpr so that you have little problems with idle pulse width etc. would not be able to hit 400hp. maybe im optomistic, but with the right engine, it can be done. and tuning is the only tough part like grumpy says. but isnt it tought to tune a carb or anything else for 400hp?

 

Get the cheap one and at least you have a 454 TBI even if you find a bad injector or a bad sensor.

 

For the listed price I would buy all 3 of them!! I know I'll need the larger injectors later on. These 65#ers aren't doing so hot beyond 4500rpm unless I crank the fuel pressure up. I'm just going to do it because I don't have a choice, I want to run a good time at the track and if the injectors don't like the fuel pressure I guess I'll just have to use my AAA members card.
I really hope you can get to Atco.

------------------
, Jon (350 TBI!)
91 Red My website

 

You should be able to run 65pph injectors at 17-18psi to support the 330hp crate motor nicely.

The cheap one is about a 40 mile drive, I thought it was more but it is ALL backroads, essentially. Gonna go there tonight, or Sat AM. ATCO ain't gonna happen, this time. Next time ou can hold me accountable. I should have all I need by Spring.

 

I HAVE A 1974 FJ40 THAT I HAVE PUT A TBI SYSTEM ON THE SYSTEM INCLUDES 1995 ECM 16197427 AND A HOLLY 670 CFM TBI UNIT TWO INJECTOR STYLE, REPROGRAMMING OF THE ECM HAS BEEN DONE,

ENGINE IS GM FASTBURN 385 CRATE ENGINE WITH HEADERS ON IT, THE PROBLEM I HAVE BEEN HAVEING IS LOW IDLE RICH CONDITIONS, I BLAME THIS ON THE PROGRAMMING, AND HOWELL INJECTION IS HELPING ME ON THIS, BUT MY LT TERM FUEL TRIM HAS BEEN 158 AND BETTER, HAS ANY ONE BEEN ABLE TO RUN TBI ON THE GM FASTBURN 385 ENGINE ? WITH OUT THIS PROBLEM, ALSO MY CAM IS 208 / 221 @ 50 PLEASE FEEL FREE TO COMMENT ANY THING.

 

I AM USEING THE ECM 16197427 1995 GMC TBI AND THE HOLLY 670CFM TBI UNIT, ALL IS FINE EXCPET FOR THE IDLE BEING RICH OON A FASTBURN 385 CRATE ENGINE IN A 1974 TOYOTA FJ40 WITH HEADERS AND A TURBO 350
WE ARE WORKING WITH HOWELL INJECTION TO RESOLVE THE IDLE RICH CONDITION, IF YOU WOULD LIKE WIREING INFORMATION AND MORE I CAN SEND YOU THAT INFORMATION AND ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS YOU MAY HAVE ALSO USED THE CARB INTAKE ON THE FASTBURN 385 ENGINE TO TBI ADAPTER PLATE AS WELL.. HOPE THIS HELPS

 

It's all in the tuning, and there are several guys running TBI with wilder combo's than your's. Good luck with going back and forth with a tuner who is miles away. Most of us tune the ECM ourselfs as there is just no way to get a good tune from a list of parts.

 

i realy dont have choice i have tired to program this system my self and for some reason that i cant see it idle's rich and also the advance timeing is retarded to 9 degrees or so and also the idle is 750 rpms my cam is 208 / 221 @ 50 and is 112 lobe center, so i called howell engine developments to have them program the ecm to my cam profile and also see what they can figure out im out of options...

in 30 minutes all of my spark plugs will be black because it is so rich..

 

i need help i have a 16197427 ecm running a holley 670 tbi on a fast burn 385 with the cam that came with the motor, 208/221 @ 50 the injectectors i was told are 85# and are GM type and so the problem is that i need a bin file from some one that has this type of set up so that i have some thing to go on here because im running very rich at idle and also the engine is not running right can some one please help..

my e-mail is ertiself@yahoo.com

 

Tune it yourself. I doubt those guys really know anything about that PCM. The best source of information for tuning with your TBI PCM is here at TGO.

 

I would urge you to consider EBL on that motor... dynamicefi.com

I am uncertain of the tuning program Howell offers but any tuning is labor intensive and back and forth wont cut it. Dyno tune is an option if you find someone that has the experience.

 

He has a 7427. No need to replace it. The PCMs have more features then you can shake a stick at plus MPFI and e-trans support. Several of the masks are also very well understood.
----------
Also, that setup shouldnt be very hard to tune. All the more reason to ditch howell and do it yourself.

 

ahhhaa. A PCM ! was that used on 1995-1996 TBI?

 

93-95 TBI/CPI/MPFI trucks and later in some apps. EBL is a good product, but in this case given that the PCM is already there, the money would be better spend elsewhere, like a wideband or real time tuning.

 

IS the 7427 is capable of running a high HP Force Induction 383 with MPFI. Is that what I am reading here. Also it will control the 4L60E Transmission. Is there any drawbacks to running this computer instead of a stand alone like the accell or a fast system? What are the pros and cons of going this route. I am so very close to purchasing a MPFI system I just need to figure out how I am going to control it.

 

Yes and no. The PCMs have programmable software driven injector drivers that can fire in any pattern of bank and batch fire. I also reverse engineered the $0D mask (the software that runs on the PCM) and have source code thats nearly complete and compilable, but to do forced induction would require that someone edit the source code to allow for the use of either a 2 or 3 bar MAP. The big advantage to the PCM is that it has more functionality and only costs about $50-$75.

I reprogrammed the PCM to use an LS1 mass airflow sensor, and with a few more tweaks it can handle boost, but Id be hesitant about recommending it on such a large motor with forced induction as the LS1 MAFs can only read so much airflow (up to around 450 grams per second). After that, it flatlines and the engine leans out.

 

I see, thanks for the information, this makes my decision a little easier. I currently have the 7427 computer in my 1995 Yukon that is why I was so excited to be able to keep it. I do understand that there is a little way to go with this computer but check out this web site and tell me what you think of their system I know it is expensive but I have alot of money in my motor and supercharger so it really is not that much more. How about one of their MAF sensors the one they suggest for boosted air flow. Maybe that would work with your code. Thanks again for the information this site really is informative, I have learned a ton and still need to learn a ton more... Here is the site

http://www.massfloefi.com/

 

From the pictures that I saw of it, the mass flow system is basically a ford ECU with a chopped LS1 MAF and frequency to voltage converter so the ECU can interface with the MAF. You could put that together in a day at a junk yard for a lot less then he is charging. It still has the issue of the MAF maxing out. Fast355 was maxing out an LS1 MAF with his high output NA 350. The MAFs can read a good deal of flow, but with lots of displacement along with boost, you could easily overwhelm the MAF. That, and there is also no way to retard the timing. You may also have other issues due to the fact that there is no MAP sensor as far as I know, so things could get interesting. The later GM PCMs give you a way out with this by having things in terms of grams per cylinder, but it may not be that way with the ford ECU. With your current PCM, an LS1 MAF can actually plug right into it. I reprogrammed teh truck PCM to use MAF with my TBI, and I can tell you that the only thing that the MAF does is make it so that once your MAF table is set, you dont have to tune the fueling. But, you still have to tune everything else, like the idle, crank/startup fueling, spark, transmission parameters, etc. Theres a good chance that there would be tuning issues with the mass flow system. The other issue is that its a messy solution as you have to run both computers.

The nice thing about the truck PCMs is that theyre dirt cheap and they can be relatively easily reprogrammed/modded to do boost and MPFI, and theyre SD systems, so the sky is the limit as far as HP goes. Ive been wanting to do it, but I havent had the time. Once Im done with the finishing touches to the source code, Im going to post it up so people can pick it up and run with it.

 

Ok that is exactly the kind of good information I am looking for, It may not make me happy since the MAF system seemed to be a easy fix. I even e-mailed them and they replied with alls I would need is the SBC system with a special blow thru MAF made specifically for boosted applications. This is the link to the MAF that is setup for boost. Now that I have this info I will definitely go the SD system that way I could fine tune this thing the way it needs to be. My only problem is I am going to have to learn how to do it. Again thanks alot for the info I truly appreciate you taking the time to respond to my questions. Here is the link for the MAF for boosted apps.

actually it is the same as the other link you just have to look at the Mass Air Meter link on the right top of the page.

http://www.massfloefi.com/

 

Potentially, if you could tune it yourself and money is no object, then the system might work fine. Id ask them what the highest grams per second airflow that the sensors/ECU can register. With your 383, it would likely pull 500-600 grams per second under good boost. I wouldn't take it from them that they can just send you something that will work off the bat. I suspect though, that it can be tuned the conventional way a mustang ECU can be. Its worth a shot to bring up the question and ask what type of ECU it is.

 

Here is his reply, it seems like you hit it pretty close. Will I be better off piecing this system together myself?



.ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P{padding-right:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-top:0px;}.ExternalClass EC_BODY.hmmessage{font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;}1. What type of ECU are you using, ---- Production Ford.

will it run my 4L60E Transmission or will I need to look for other means or my original computer. -- I'd suggest a TCI controller.

2. What are the highest grams per second airflow that the sensors/ECU can register. --- It depends on what meter we use, and how we calibrate it. The amount of HP you anticipate your engine will make will determine what meter we use. Answer that question, and I'll be able to give you a number. I can tell you that it will have far more range than you will ever need.


Thank you,

Mass-Flo EFI, Inc.
Pro-M Racing, Inc.

 

if any one would like a holley TBI 670 with the 300-49 intake and also new spare injector pod complete mildly modified wireing harness and has all new sensers and knock and heated bosch o2 for headers, the ecm is custom prgrammed a 16197427 GM ecm. all new with fully electronic dist. and more.. system normaly costs 1,500.00 i will sell for half the cost.. and im throwing in the intake..

if you would like to ask about this system you can call me at 1-928-478-8602 or e-mail me at ertiself@yahoo.com

please hurry this will not be around long...