autocomman

Well, I am new to the forum and I must say i dont have an F body. But this seems to be one of the best forums ive found for TBI info, tons of good stuff here so I thought I'd ask my questions...

Ive got an 82 olds custom cruiser, a B-body. Had an anemic 307 and just swapped it out for a 350TBI from a running 90 chevy pickup. motor ran great, got a used painless harness from another known running car along with all teh sensor and ecu from the running truck.

Installation was a no brainer (been a tech for 10 years, master tech, specialize in electrical, drivability etc, but soemtimes on a big issue, i seek other sources for insight on something i may have missed)

Ok, engine is stock, did only a reseal before installation. Using an external fuel pump Airtex E8153, rated at 10-14psi and 35gph.
when the engine is cold it has a hesitation, bad. Starts fine, idles ok, a little rough sometimes. But it hesitates bad like an EGR valve wide open, gets less as the engine warms up, and its not too bad warmed up, but its not right. Drops a cylinder at idle intermittently and randomly. Also at WOT it doesnt haev the power it should, it will pull harder if i lift my foot some. And ill get a code 43 only at or near WOT. Also, it will run perfectly right after starting it, reguardless of temperature, so open loop is runs perfect, closed loop its not happy.

New distributor, not rebuilt, new a/c delco plugs, wires cap and rotor. ECT reads fine on the scanner and the knock/EST system is operating properly. TPS also appears to be ok with a DVOM. Fuel line is stock, 3/8 pressure and 1/4 return. From what ive read 1/4 may be on the small side, but if it was an issue I would think it would always be an issue, not just after its run for a minute or so. I need to check fuel pressure though, gonna do that tomarrow. Timing was set at 0deg i avanced it to 4deg, using the timing set connector of course. EGR isnt hooked up, i dont have he solonoid wired or vacuum to the solonoid right now. The muffler is slightly collapsed form a backfire from the carbed 307, which is on the list to be replaced, but again...it runs awsome right after a start, start it and i can jump on it, it'll pull like crazy, like it should...but after a few minutes, assumingly when it switches to closed loop it doesnt run right. Also in closed loop the idle is unstable, surges slightly and had an erratic missfire. Wires and plugs are new and good...if they wernt, i should have a more consistant missfire, espically under load. It feels like the EGR is opening. Ive checked with a vacuum guage and revved the engine and held it at 2500-3000, the vacuum is good at like 18-19" so i doubt the muffler is backing up. Im not worried about the code 43, i just dont think the motor is prone to pinging, so its not knocking at full advalce, hence the code.....

any thoughts on this? I feel like ive explored almost every option and am kinda stuck. I swapped a known good, ECU and MAP sensor with the same results, all that different from this car and the truck it was in is the fuel pump and the exhaust, what did i miss? Im gonna be maing an ALDL connector for data logging soon too for kicks.

Again im gonna check fuel pressure tomarrow, Oh and the O2 is a new bosch 1 wire. last time i looked at the live data with a scanner the fuel trims, block learn and integrator were real close to 128 where they should be
Mark

RFmaster

autocomman

Welcome to TGO.
Aghhh bringing a new power plant into older chassis is always fun. Lets see. Single wire BOSCH NBO - these are known to be be problematic if not installed close enough to the engine. Also, BOSCH crossover slopes are different from AC-Delco. GM ECM calibration work better with AC-Delco NBO's. In your post you did not mention were NBO is installed - on a third gen it is mounted into the driver side exhaust manifold where it gets enough heat (NBO needs to be above 600F to function). To avoid heating issues I run three or four wire NBO's.

1/4" return line is a big NO-NO - get a 5/16" line instead. Use that 1/4" evap line for CCP as it should be. Verify your fuel pressure - I found that about 90 percent of problems like you are describing are related to fuel pressure and fuel volume. Most stock TBI engines (86-92) need 13 to 15 psi for normal operation. Airtex 35Ggph may be on a small side - for my conversions I use 20 Psi and 45 GPH pumps. The extra pressure is needed to overcome fuel system restrictions. Verify your FP at TBI inlet to see actual FP.

Definitely get ALDL hooked up and post a complete data log.

//RF

Nub383

Just a thought here reguarding your statement about lifting the pedal a little to get better power in closed loop. When you adjusted your timing, did you disconnect the est wire from the distributor? I am not sure what bin file the ecm has for timing but you may be getting knock-retard on your timing.

autocomman

Good info on the bosch sensor, it is in the drivers exh mani, ive got a good acdelco one lying around, ill pop that one in. I did dicsonnect the timing connector tan with black stripe, and im gonna check the fuel pressure after work today. So if i run a new line, is it ok to have the 1/4" at the sender still? its only maybe 1 foot or so, the CCP is a big 3/8 line thats on the opposide side of the frame, the carburated engine had the 1/4 line as a vent/return from teh mechanical fuel pump, as on the F-bodys with the carb, thats what i used...but i will run a bigger line. Ive got the electric pump i pulled from teh truck, i didnt use it cause its an internal pump, and i wasnt sure how to modify the sender, but ive got some ideas now, so if it is a fuel pressure issue...i may be able to set up an internal pump. thanks for the advice, ill post back with the results

Mark

RFmaster

Mark

I had good, repeatable fuel system operation using 3/8" supply and either 3/8" or 5/16" return lines. I also run external, frame mounted pump (self priming Carter P5001) - Airtex would be my second choice. Internal TB fuel pressure regulator can not operate well when the return line is restrictive - 1/4" is very restrictive to fuel flow. IRC there was a thread regarding return line size. In the past I've used 3/8" line from summit or braided line (Earl's)
For fuel sending assembly - I spent a bit of time with catalogs finding one that had three ports (3/8, 5/16, 1/4") avoiding the need for drilling and tapping a feed through for fuel return line. A quick look at Custom Cruiser history indicates that this car remained more or less the same from 77 to 90, the later years were probably FI cars.

According to one cross reference (Spectra) in 1982 custom cruiser had either 2 port fuel sending unit FG14B and 3port unit FG14A. 1990 used in tank FP FG09A sending unit.

//RF

autocomman

Well ya know how you shouldnt second guess the easy stuff, and as much as i knew the first thing i should have done is check fuel pressure, i frekin knew to do it first...but i went off the other end...oiy...survey says 9-10 psi at idle, stab the throttle and watch the needle drop to 7-8 psi. pinching the return off completly yeilded the same results, obviously, its not enough pressure to warrant much return anyway....SO ill be purchasing a larger external. I wanted to go internal and yes the custom cruiser and other Bbody cars are very similar, 91-92 custom cruiser, 91-93 roadmaster and caprice estate were TBI cars but what i worry about is buying a sender and having it not fit or having fuel guage issues cause of some small change GM made in teh tanks. I will be staying external. Is there a similar airtex number off the top of anyones head with some room? I did find the stock GM pump was 35gph and 12-17psi, ive got no issue going 20psi and 45gph, but id like to get something local if i can. the help is appreciated, and like i said...i just felt like i overlooked something stupid, dur

Mark

RFmaster

Mark

No worries - been there - drank that that stuff before.
You current pump E8153 is a solenoid based 12Volt pump rated at 10-14 PSI and 35GPH with 3/8 hose (designed for Diesel Engines). TBI needs a bit more pressure and volume - try E8094 rollervane based pump rated for 12-17 PSI, 45-50GPH 5/16" hose GM TBI Replacement pump. If this one is not available E8445 is your next choice, but be aware that excess fuel circulation leads to increased vapor build up and fuel temperature increase. Plus, you'll have to replace all rubber hoses (if any) with SAE30R9 rated hoses for safety.

http://www.airtexproducts.com/TSB/TSB-0108-01_ATX.pdf

//RF

autocomman

Last night i ordered the carter p5001, i dont wanna mess around....the more i read the more people end up with the carter....so thats that..ill post with an update as soon as i get it in

Mark

autocomman

Well, installed the new carter pump and she will now do a one tire fire! Pretty sweet. I am going to have to run a new return line obviously, but first its goin to the tranny shop tuesday to have a shift kit put in the 200 to firm up the shifts. Its an ac delco reman with like 30k on it, so its still in decent shape, but needs some serious help with the shifty firmness.

Its awsome though, a completly different car going from 140hp 240lb tq in its prime! to a 200hp 300lb tq fuel injected motor. Runs like it should have from the factory. The swap was easy, dual bolt pattern 200, a/c was in teh same spot and the 350 is lighter and smaller than teh 307 that came out, its a win win win bolt in swap!

some pics for your viewing pleasure. (its really cleaner than it looks, you know how a flash brings out all the detail you normally dont see, heh)

I originally had the truck manifolds on it but for smog reasons and the fact i want a referee sticker i had to put air inj, car manifolds on. At this point its fine cause its not a race car, and it will run fine this way.











Thanks for all the help, ill be makin my winaldl soon, and this is now my 1st stop for alternative TBI info!

Mark

RFmaster

Hey, that's a great looking wagon! That TBI system is much simpler than the old CCC abortion. GM went that route because microprocessor technology (and real time operating system) of the early eighties was not up to the task. Once they figured out what can be done and with availability of slightly faster silicon EFI was the way to go.

Since you are in Cali I am very curious of all the steps that you have to go through to get that ref sticker. I know that is doable, but every one has their own experience. BTW, make sure that you have ECM controlled CCP and all the hoses of the evap system in good shape. They will test that.

When all said and done - enjoy the ride. Thanks for update.

//RF

autocomman

The CCC actually worked properly on that car, it passed smog right before i yanked the motor. Im a drivability and smog tech, so ive gotten to know the CCC sytems very well

The smog shouldnt be too hard, technically you cannot put a truck motor in a car, but you can put a car motor in a truck, makes no sense, but thats the law. SO there were a few B-body cars that had a TBI setup, the cadi fleetwood, buick roadmaster and caprice and caprice estate. So basically all ive got to do is make sure the equipment on say a roadmaster is on this engine, it has to 'look' right. Note it has to look right, they wont check functionality. The roadmaster and other cars had air injection, so it has to be there. I have to find out if those cars has a purge solonoid, or if it was just plumbed straight into the throttle body. other than that, obviously the evap has to be sealed. Take it down to a referee say its from like a 92 roadmaster, they will check to see what equip a roadmaster has, make sure its on the car, perform a standard ASM smog on the vehicle, check evap and give me a sticker, that 'should' be it....ive got some time to get all the air pump stuff anyway, so it may be a year or so before i goto the referee...


Mark

Pat_Barry

Hi My name is Pat Barry from Windsor ontario Canada and this is my first time on this site. I have a 91 Rs with a 5.7 tbi. my problem (other than not being a mechanic if the fact when I got this car there are no fuel lines other thsn where the were cut off where the rubber starts at the back of the car. I have had no luck in fining out what I need.when I went to the dealer hear they tell me they are discontinued. Do you know where I could get pics of the system and maybe some idea on how to install them. Any help would be great. yes Im a newbie. Pat
My emaill is pbarry1@cogeco.ca

autocomman

Wow, thread from the dead...my wagon doesnt even have the TBI in it anymore, dumped that old tech and went with an LQ4 6.0 from an 03 truck, and fully restored painted the wagon. Pat I would post that question in the forums not on this thread, youll get a better response that way