camarorsssss

iTrader: (2)

Don't waste your money on someone burning a chip for your motor through mail order. There are too many variables that may need to be tuned for your particular setup, and every motor is different. Chances are it will make your motor run better than stock tune but it will in no way pull the full potential of the motor out. You would be much better off in the long run putting the money towards tuning equipment.

gregl316

iTrader: (1)

I've all but decided to go with the EBL system. I am going to bore my intake the extra 2mm to make it 46mm like the TB. I think I will buy the EBL now and install it on my stock engine and try to get the hang of tuning it. As you can see in my prior posts this swap is costing me an arm and a leg. I just hope it is worth it in the long run. So far with all I've done to this $1900 dollar car I have about $8500 into it before the motor. But I have a brand new very cool car.

Now for another question. Should I run the stock air cleaner or just get an open element one? I kind of like how the stock one looks. cant I just get a chrome lid from a truck and gut out the heat valve and get the same flow?

camarorsssss

iTrader: (2)

I have the ebl and love it especially since it works with any mod you decide to make ie bigger motor, induction, nitrous, ect. Rbob is great with support and has a wealth of knowledge about just about every issue you might come up with.

most people go to an open air cleaner and does flow better than stock. You could go to the dual inlet air cleaners which are nice If you like the stock look but they are usually expensive and tough to find. Another alternative is a cold air intake but they can get pricey too. They main goal is to bring as much COOL air into the throttle body/carb as possible.

gregl316

iTrader: (1)

I ordered my EBL this morning and I also ordered a TBI. I am wondering if I made a mistake. I ordered from Sean at SPR performance and am getting a 46mm with 55# injectors and a 20# fpr. What is this I am hearing about an AFPR. Are they an easy install and where do you get them. How much are they. What the hell it's only money.
Help I am confused again.

Al Hasse

I'll have to find the e-Bay store I bought my adjustable regulator from and send you the link. It's easy to install prior to mounting the TBI on the intake, adjustable on the car with an allen wrench (difficult to get at, however) and adjustable from 10-25psi. I have it set at 18psi and getting ready to up the pressure to 22psi.


EDIT: As promised, http://www.ebay.com/itm/GM-1987-95-T...sories&vxp=mtr

xch3no2

Congrats on the EBL, you'll love it.

No worries about the regulator, first make your regulator adjustable the low-tech way.
If you can get the small steel alignment posts (tool) from a rebuild kit they make it much easier to reassemble, otherwise make your own after you get it apart.

Find a 3/16 drill and remove the set screw anchor material (looks brazed to me). Just drill enough to free the screw. Remove the screw and dress the head round & flat with a file or grinder. Then cut a slot across the top of the head with a hacksaw for screwdriver adjustment...you can build small adjusting drivers from coat-hanger or similar material.

gregl316

iTrader: (1)

Oh Sean will make my TBI have an adjustable FPR if I want should I? I really was talking about the vacuum operated one.
But now on to the delema that is bothering me today which I thought I had all figured out. I am having a 46mm TBI built and until last nite I thought I was going with 55# injectors at 18 to 20#'s. Now everyone says that aint enough. Since I told Sean about the EBL he isn't stuck on the 55# injectors he is saying 80's running at 15#'s. Some one please get my head rite. I thought 80's were to big. I guess that's why the lower pressure. I just want this rite and I don't want to spend the money twice or three times like I have done before. I am throwing myself at the mercy of the form again to save me from making a mistake.

xch3no2

As you've heard me say before avoid the big injectors, period.

The GM TBI performs much better over 20psi than under, period

gregl316

iTrader: (1)

So what size injectors and what pressure then?

freaky

55# injecters are good for 341 fwhp at 35 psi at 30 there good fpr 316 fwhp

gregl316

iTrader: (1)

OK so let me get this sraight. I should tell Sean to go ahead with the 55# injectors but make the FPR set at 35#'s. Does the fact that I am going to run an EBL matter? Please everyone chime in I need answers. Sean has my money and I think he is leaning Towards 80# injectors an 15#'s. But he isn't used to the EBL he wanted me to go with TBI Chips. Rite now I am going with what he says he is the pro not me.

xch3no2

In this case you will be spilling a little more coin, YOU will need to set pressure.

Shop around for this item, get one, learn to use it.

http://www.amazon.com/Actron-CP7817-.../dp/B0006V2BK0

gregl316

iTrader: (1)

So I should check my actual FP and not just trust the builder that it is 35#s. I am going to have him make it adjustable. But I should start at 35#'s? Isn't that to much pressure for idle situations? Can the EBL compensate for that?

RFmaster

Well the short answer is - with fuel pressure set 35 PSI at idle, and with 55 lb-hr rated injectors (rated at 13 PSI) it is probably will be a too rich. I am saying probably. A better answer - the likelihood is very high. The problem is that TBI injectors have an absolute minimum open time of about 1.0 to 1.1 mSec. Even if ECM commands shorter pulse width - say 0.8 mSec the injector open time be around 1.0 mSec. Consequently, ECM in a futile attempt will try to shorten injector pulse width, BLM will climb until it rails out at 108. But all is not lost....

You're best chance for success is to run VRFPR (vacuum referenced fuel pressure regulator) such as Aeromotive 13301. This FPR has a vacuum port - when connected to the manifold vacuum FPR will alter fuel pressure. When vacuum is high (this usually happens at idle or while cruising) fuel pressure is reduced. However, when intake manifold vacuum is low, which happens when engine is under load fuel pressure is increased.
I use this VRFPR on my 383 with 82 lb-hr injectors running 10 PSI at idle and about 22 lb with vacuum port disconnected. To make it all work EBL is essential as it has ability to alter BPC depending on intake manifold VAC (in kPA). This table allows ECM to recalculate BPC depending engine vacuum. You can find it in BPC - BPC vs. VAC table in EBL xdf. So far so good - no melted pistons, but the tire situation is rather 'dire'. I am on a tire diet if you know what I'm mean....

Getting back to your situation. In my truck, with a freshly built 350 I run 14 PSI fuel pressure with a pair of 61 lb injectors. At idle (600 RPM, close loop, CS1014r camshaft) commanded sPW is around 1.95 mSec. Here is snippet from one of my EBL data logs:

RPM MAP CTS sPW INT BLM BPC IAC AFR WBO FP
600 47 85 1.984 130 126 133 31 14.3 14.7 13.9
600 47 85 1.953 130 126 133 31 14.3 14.7 13.7
612 46 85 1.953 130 126 133 31 14.3 14.7 14.0
612 46 85 1.953 130 126 133 31 14.3 14.7 14.1

RPM - Engine RPM
MAP - MAP sensor in kPA
CTS - coolant temperature (in C)
sPW - injector pulse width
INT - Integer
BLM - long term fuel trim
BPC - EBL BPC
IAC - Idle Air Control
AFR - Commanded AFR 14.3 for E10 fuel
WBO - Wideband O2 sensor reading
FP - Fuel pressure sensor (PSI)

In grand scheme of things it maybe possible to run 55 lb-Hr injectors at 20 PSI at idle on top of a healthy 350 and keep idle fuel mixture under control. Expect about 10 to 12 PSI fuel pressure swing between full vacuum (idle vacuum ~ 16 to 18 in-Hg) and WOT. If your idle vacuum is low (this is where cam selection is critical ) the fuel pressure swing will be less, which make things a bit more challenging.


//RF

freaky

yes get a gauge know what your runnning don't guess

gregl316

iTrader: (1)

Thanks guys. So What size injectors should I run? Where do I get this VAFPR? If I'm not mistaken you leave the fuel in line alone and make the fuel out line go to the VAFPR then back to the tank? That sounds easy enough. Where do you get vac.? What do you do to the TBI to prep it for this? I am having one built by Sean I might as well do it now. Is it as easy as leaving the spring out and cutting the diaphragm out but leaving enough for the gasket?

If I decide to go the other rout what FP should I run? With what size injectors? If I go VAFPR what size injectors should I run?

I thank you guys for the wealth of knowledge your sharing with me. I can't do it with out it.

Greg

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

I bought my Aeromotive at Summit. I think it is the 13301. anyway the model with 2 springs for high or low pressure.

TBI see fuel first then the FPR sees it then it is returned to tank. you remove stock FPR and cap it off with a gasket and plate. I made my own. Or ebay.

I used a nipple on the intake fitting for vac source that is used for brake booster. Drilled and tapped. Also add a FP gauge to Aero unit as there are several ports.

FP at WOT is the same for traditional or VAFPR. VAFPR reduces press at idle or lower map. You will need to use an ECU that supports VAFPR. I was not successful in use of one with 7747 ECU.

Run as much injector or FP that you need to fuel WOT.

thomas1976

If you want a "stock" system VRFPR can look here https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...rfpr-pics.html

As already pointed out, I personally would go with injectors that flow more than the 55 #/hr or 61 #/hr for your applacation.
It certenly also depends on availability of the injectors.

As for fuel pressure and wich injector size, look at the excel fuel calculator that comes with the EBL.
Can also look at the # already posted in this tread, all the numbers have already been posted.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

I cant find that reg at turbo city? I am sure available somewhere. EBay?

GM VAFPR I believe is discontinued. Marine parts dealer may still have one. GM I believe was like $40-$50.

morgsie

iTrader: (1)

It use to be on their website about 2 years ago. I was going to go this route but when I went to buy it a year ago it was no longer there, so I went the Aeromotive 13303 route instead. You can always try phoniing Turbocity to see if they still stock it.

thomas1976

Yes it is a shame that such an easy direct replacement TBI VRFPR is hardly available anymore.

Here is the link from post #2, of the main part http://www.summitracing.com/parts/JET-61500/

I have a direct replacement custom TBI AVRFPR beeing made, but will probably take another 2 monts until it is ready for testing.

gregl316

iTrader: (1)

OK for now I have decided to just go with an AFPR and start at arround 25#'s I am going to run either 62# or 68# injectors and see if I can dial it in with out the VAFPR.

morgsie

iTrader: (1)

If you are going to run over 18 psi with out a VAFPR, you might as well go with the 80# injectors then.

gregl316

iTrader: (1)

Well my EBL avived in the mail Yesterday. I down loaded one disc looking for instructions and tryed to do the other and my computer is having a problem. I have no "My Computer" icon and I can't find it. I was hoping for some instructions. Anyone tell me what to do? I want to play with it on my stock car befor I do the change to get used to it.Hell I don't even know where my computer is let alone what to do once I hook it up.

Al Hasse

Icon should be in the Start Menu if not on the Desktop...

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The EBL Flash CD has an auto-install, that will create a Program Group along with short cuts on the desktop.

The FTDI USB driver CD has install instructions for the drivers for each of the operating systems. in pdf format. Basically, just plug the USB/Serial cable into a USB port and the O/S should open a New Hardware Found window. This will occur twice, then point the install window at the CD that has the drivers on it.

Can also find the My Computer access from the Start menu.

ECM is under the dash on the passenger side. A '91 is likely on a slide mount, push the bottom of the ECM forward to release the Velcro and clear the ledge, then pull it straight down and out.

RBob.

gregl316

iTrader: (1)

RBob took the time to call me on a Sunday and helped me install the EBL programs on my computer. It took us over an hour but I know what to do to get started now. If he took the time for this I am sure when it comes to installing and then tuning I will get plenty of help.I just hope it works 1/2 as good as the customer service I received.

xch3no2

I found this to be untrue


It goes more like when you use the 80# injectors on a smallblock the pulsewidth will become too low and you must cut pressure.

Thus the need for the VRFPR.

Why cause yourself more cost and tuning complexity than necessary?

I run the 80's because mine is a very near 500hp RAT, and it's thirsty at idle lol. That, and I'm selling every set of 75's I get my hands on. I did have to raise the pressure to 62psi for the 75's, not an issue for my fuel delivery.

morgsie

iTrader: (1)

I think this was said before I was "informed" ...

gregl316

iTrader: (1)

Now on to some other questions. It's to late. I trusted the opinion and very experience judgement of Xch3no2 after hearing his back round. He is a very knowledgeable senior member. It is to late anyhow. I am going with 68# injectors with a VFPR set at 25 to start. I have an EBL and every day more parts arrive in the mail. It should be a complete motor when it is time to drop the engine in.

My motor is rated at 330hp. I was wondering with everything I am putting on it am I going to get more Hp out of it or is 330 it?

I have 2&1/2" collectors should I flange it up to 3" and go 3" all the way back or am I good with 2&1/2"? Also should I buy an open element air cleaner and do I have the hood clearance to go with a flat base one like is sugested? Do I mount the sensor in the air cleaner? Or can I get away with the stock air cleaner with some mods? I kinda want the stock one but if it is a take away then I won't do it. What plugs should I run? Can I run one short plug or do I need the set? I have the number 5 hole that won't clear my headers. I heard I need special plugs for vortec heads.

I'll post pictures. Anyone know a dyno tuner in the PDX area. Someone that knows TBI's and the EBL. It kinda intimidates me. I know Rbob is there. I think I am going to instal it know and get used to playing with it. I am also going to install the fuel pump unless the added pressure is to much for my stock TBI.

Also what is a stock high mileage complete 305 worth. It should be a drop in as I am buying everything new and it will have the stock computer. Used motor don't sell to good around here. I'm thinking 5 hundred. It will make a good S-10 swap. Hell I may do it.

morgsie

iTrader: (1)

I am running 2.5" collector to 3" dual exhaust with a crossover to the tail pipe. I'm not in a thirdgen though and some might say it's a bit big for 400 FWHP, but now if I ever want to upgrade cam/heads/etc the exhuast is already there. I am running R44LTS plugs on my vortec engine w/ tri-y headers. Gap currently @ .045", will probably try .050" once the engine is in and I have a good tune on it.

xch3no2

Kind words, thanks, I'll try to live up to them.
Remember RBob is boss, it's years and years of his work that make the C3 useable.

And,

he's no slouch at rodin' his ride, I know his heads are working.

Your engine is rated for the builds optimum output. More injection or carb cannot make more power. Horsepower comes from the heads and camshaft, all you can do is fail to supply the correct parts from there. Going too big on the intake will soften horsepower/ throttle response. Same with exhaust.

Your goal is to match parts to the intended use. Think shift point.

Efforts at high rpm pulse ram intakes usually result in narrower powerbands, acceptable only in some forms of racing. It's the mixed blessing of the TPI world. Their pulse rpm is rather low but effective.

Remember GM ran these tbi's at 35psi, there are NO design issues at 25.
Have gauge and adjustable regulator before pump swap.

xch3no2

Don't flange up at the collector, I heard from an exhaust pro (Austin) that it's too often a disruptive pulse. Anywhere after about 18 inches of collector extension it's OK to add pipe changes or mufflers (assuming 28" longtubes, 12" collector). I would bump to 3" at the mufflers.

I would like to hear Don's thoughts, search exhaust.

Go for the sealed cold air.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

You can install the AC Delco TPI fuel pump with the stock TBI unit. No issues there.

For the intake sensor and duct work. As xch3no2 mentioned, a cold air system is the best. With that the IAT should be reading the real intake air temperature. So away from the engine is helpful.

RBob.

Al Hasse

Modern Classics in Lake Oswego might be able to help. The owner, Steve is very knowledgeable and is into F-Bodies. Our Cascade Crew has an annual dyno day there normally in Jan-Mar time frame.

http://www.modernclassicsauto.com/

gregl316

iTrader: (1)

I'll think I'll wait and do it all at once. I just hope all my parts are good. I've done this before. I put all new parts on an engine and put it in only to find some were bad. What a trouble shooting nitemare.

By cold air intake do you mean an open element air cleaner or the system? I am going to order one now and I want to know what to get. I am going with all GM Performance for a better look when I pop the hood. But if there is better let me know and I'll get that instead. Better yet just tell me which one to buy and I'll get that one.

Is there anything else I should replace? I have a new IAS, TPS, Knock Sensor, ESM, Temp Sensor (not sender), MAP, Oil Presser sender, are there any others?

I want to thank every one for their expert guidance especially Xch3no2 and Rbob for taking the time to get this rookie straight.

dctrumpet

iTrader: (10)

Your TBI was shipped last week. Let me know when you get it

gregl316

iTrader: (1)

I sure will Sean. Thanks it has been a long road in this what was supposed to be a simple build but in the long run I am sure it will be worth it.

On a different note am I going to be able to get it running and tuned enough to drive 15 miles at 55 with open headers?

dctrumpet

iTrader: (10)

HOw's the TBI doing?

gregl316

iTrader: (1)

Sean; I won't be useing it for quit some time. The engine is still on the stand. It looks great and it is exactly what I wanted.

Hay should I get an open element air cleaner? Raised or dropped base?

dctrumpet

iTrader: (10)

I am using a drop base with a 14x3 K&N filter and the Xtreme lid in my 92 Firechicken

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

I have a 14 inch drop and flat base(s) with 2.00 inch KN(clearance) I will sell cheap. 1 season use. pm me if interested.

gregl316

iTrader: (1)

Thanks Ronny to bad it didn't work out. I am going to buy a 14" buy not sure how tall I can go. I would like at least a 3" but I want to shut my hood. How about it will it fit? I have a GM Performance intake so it looks a bit taller. What are you guys running that have the adapter plate and a performer in take? So Sean should I order a 14x3 with a dropped base? Does that lid do anything except look real cool? I know it has to supply more air. What should I pay for a 14x3 K&N with a dropped base? There 143 on eBay. I haven't found the lid yet.

The motor is ready to be dropped in. I just need to install the fp and the ebl too. For what this is costing me I could have put a blown 350 in it lol. It better be worth it.

Do vortec heads require special spark plugs? Also do they make header plugs for them? Can I run just one shorty or should I run the complete set? I only need one.

gregl316

iTrader: (1)

Real quick one. Before I install it I bought an EP381 Delco FP I read the forms and that is the one they talked about. Now there saying EP241. What do you all think.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

They use a different spark plug. An Autolite 104 or 103 can be used. It is a .708" reach, 5/8" hex, taper seat. The 103 being colder then the 104.

As for the fuel pump, I don't know. The EP241 is listed for our cars. While the EP381 is listed for trucks. IIRC, someone posted something about the outlet size. Here it is:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...p-upgrade.html

The EP241 has a smaller outlet size, apparently to fit the turtle which the TBI cars don't have. Check the EP381 pump you have against the pictures in the thread above.

RBob.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

[QUOTE] How about it will it fit? [QUOTE]

I have no idea as I have a Vette. The drop base has to clear the TB linkage.

food for thought. How about a carb bonnet with ducting to allow cold air(cone filter). I had that non drop base on my TB and it was very hot to touch. Now my bonnet with duct and filter in front of engine is noticibly cooler.

gregl316

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the info on the pump. Mine is an ACDelco but now I don't understand. It is made in China. I is exactly like the 241 in the pictures. I am at a fork in the road do I install a China made pump or get a pump made in the USA?

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

I just put a Delco EP381 in my mom's 89 TBI firebird with no issues whatsoever. It just went right in, no mods.

I do use the new parts that come in the box, including the wiring connector. Its running stronger than ever as of today. I did not modify the fuel pressure regulator or any fuel lines other than what was inside the tank that needed to be replaced.

I am preparing to put another in my V6 firebird tomorrow. I don't expect any problems but if there are differences I will post them up.

gregl316

iTrader: (1)

Kris is your pump made in China? I Have a full tank of gas so as soon as it's low I am going to install it. I just wish you were close so you could give me a hand.

gregl316

iTrader: (1)

I am going to install my EBL, fuel pump and shift kit next. I am just a little intimidated with the EBL. Rbob has been great so far. He showed me so premade tuning programs but I can't seem to find them. The pump and shift kit seem pretty straight forward. I have never done either. I am a gas-turbine tech by trade so I am more then a beginner wrench turner. What is involved in the shift kit? I want the stage 2 but an automatic shifting not the manual shift. I will keep everyone informed with my progress. Can anyone tell me where I should get started on each project?