OH, Sorry

That makes a little more sense though.

 

 

ok... buy the end of the year, everyone should know what a really beefed up 305 should do. Im keepin my motor because its been great to me. By may ill have replaced the t5 with a t56 tranny and a lil better clutch. When i do my motor, ive gotta guy down here that builds engines and ive seen what he can do with one. Since im back home with mom,(cause im going back to college) I no longer have a 500 a month rent payment plus utilities to deal with. Im gonna give this guy 3000 and tell him to build me the quickest, most dependable, STREETABLE (since this is my daily driver) car that he can. Now with that $$ we should all be able to see what ya can do with one. Of coure I will already have the headers and exhaust, new TB and the old heads fully ported and polished with a nice MSD ignition. Then the 3000 for him to build me somethin. Hopefully all will turn out well, if not, its just a learning expierence!!

 

ok NJSPEEDSTER you are putting out just about the only information that actually makes sense and one hell of a good arrgument. this is wut i ask of u. i am 16 and i have till august till i have my license. i have a 89 formula with a L03 5spd. i have open element, TES headers, gutted cat, 3 inch exhaust and a flowmaster muffler. i just put in a 3.27 9-bolt posi rear. i am lookin to break into the 13's liek around 13.7- 13.8. and i don't wunna spend over a grand. since u have ran a 14.2 witch is awsome wut do u have done? also do u think u coudl make me a set up to get me into the 13's with wut i have and 3.73 gears that are soon to come? also i don't have any way to get a custom computer chip. thanks so much with any help u can give me. oh yea one more thing wut do u recomend for suspension on a budget. thanks again

 

89 formula,

Tim has a link at the bottom of his sig that leads to a site with his car.

 

Ok tim, first thing... READ my post, then THINK, then reply. Put your anger aside and use common sense. Simple.

"adn you did what to learn how to make a LO3 go fast? hmmm, oh nothing, thats right."

Really? How would you know? Dont make random assumptions about things you dont know anything about unless you want someone (like me) to disagree with you, because that is what is going to happen, every time.

"well i have not said that i ran a 13. what i have doen is played with and doen a lot of trial and error learnign about hwo the LO3 works and responds to mods over the last 8years of ownign my car. what have i achieved, how about 15.2's with ultimate tbi mods before i even had a posi, 14.6's on street tires, how about 14.2's on a stock chip and cam."

Blah Blah Blah. Its obvious you havent said you have run a 13 second time, but thats not the point. This is the point:
How is that a LEGIT 13 second combo? First, you need a car with just those mods to hit a 13 second 1/4. Second, you need to back that run up, preferably someone else with a different car, then it really is proven. I suppose I'll let the other car thing slide, but if I'm not mistaken, there is no 13 second timeslip with that combo right? Then dont call it LEGIT. Legit means no bench racing allowed. If you want to say you think its good for 13's, or should work for 13's, fine. Just dont go as far as you do and say that for sure its a 13 second combo until you actually do it, otherwise people like me who know theres no proof to back it up are going to call you on it. If/when you get the timeslip, then you can say whatever you want, but as of right now I dont think anyone is going to let it slide, and thats what you see posted above.

"if i had to start over with the knowledge i have now my car woudl have run 13's a long time ago, and for a lot less money. but i was the one doing the learning. so i did not have the luxary of anyoen who has been there telling me what it takes.
it does not take a super computer designed system to run 13's. i don't know why everyone is acting liek it takes a miracle to go that quick."

And yet the 'miracle' is yet to happen for you. Must not be so easy if you arent there yet. I dunno what the references to super computers or miracles has to do with this anyway, I never said anything about that. I'm just wondering where the proof of your statement is.

"it is truely amazing how i get to go through this same old crap every year before racing season starts. why is it that a bunch of guys who never worked with tbi have to show up and say how much it sucks and how flawed the 305 is and doubt everything about it."

Maybe its because you call your opinions of what is going to happen fact instead of opinion. Try waiting until AFTERWARDS next time, you might be surprised how things will change. You might also again try not assuming things about people you dont know, it might bite you in the rear.

"a few years ago the same type jokers were saying that a 305 can't go 90 mph without a cam, i did it before i even swapped the stock intake out!!!!! face it, none of you guys who are bagging have any tiem into this set up, so knock it off."

I sure hope you are talking about a TBI powered car and not 305's in general. I did that with a peanut cammed car in 1993. Old news.

"properly prepared"

I do believe that is read $$$. I'd also like to see some proof of your claim, unless you'd like to tell me the car was gutted to nothing and had a bunch of bolt on stuff and engine mods allowed like different cam profiles and stuff like that. Someone I know quite well was prepping showroom stock cars at the factory in Van Nuys, and he said they were high 12's-low 13's. I really doubt that virtually unlimited factory funds was unable to pick up that much more power.

Anyway, if you have some actual proof go ahead and show it. Otherwise, stop stating your opinions as fact and you wont get attacked about it anymore.

 

Geez Blockhead see what you've started?
Is that smoke I smell,
Wow, look a 4 alarm fire,
Look ar all those flames

Maybe we should all just agree to disagree??

 

I dont think these mods will get my car into the 13's. I was at the track a couple of years ago and there was a 305TBI car there with a 150 shot of nitrous running 14.3 @92mph. Now I dont know about the rest of you, but to me that is pathetic. I have seen bone stock 350 TPI cars running 14.2's on this board. I even think that Ed Maher on this board (tpi forum) has a 305 TPI running 14.7 @ 93mph. Most of the TBI cars are like mine. 15.89 @ 84mph.

Flames? What flames? :lala:

 

Tim: So this is your combo? (from your website)

1991 Black w/ Red Interior Camaro RS
4 speed automatic
Options: T-Tops
Car # 4446
Weight: 3080 lbs.

Engine: Edlebrock Performer Centerbolt Heads, Crane 1.5 Fuller Roller Rockers

Induction: Holley 670cfm Throttle Body, Holey Street Dominator Manifold, 14x4 Open Element Air Cleaner

Exhaust: Edlebrock TES Headers(Jet Hot Coated), Cat Eliminator Pipe, Flowmaster 1 Chamber w/ Dump Before the Rear Axle

Drivetrain: Completely Overhauled Tranny w/ Fairbanks Kit,Custom 2600 Stall Converter, Dana44 Rear w/ 4.10 Gears and a Spool, B&M Console Mega Shifter

Suspension: FRONT:PST Polygraphite Bushings, Stock V6 Springs, Lakewood 90/10 Struts
REAR:Lakewood 50/50 Shocks, Eibach Pro Kit Springs, Steve Spohn Rear Set Up w/ Rod Ends, Stock Rear Sway w/ Poly Bushings and Links

Brakes: Baer Track Kit In Front w/ Baer Oversized Rear Set Up, All Rotors Slotted

Tires/Wheels: Weld Drag Lites wtih ET Skinnies and 26x9.5x16 Hoosier Quick Time Pro DOT's
-------------

So you have basically everything on your car that's in your Legit 13's recipie, PLUS Edelbrock Heads and a converter , but your best time is 14.2@95?

Not saying that isn't a nice time, because its good for a 305, but its not 13s, and it clearly has much more HP than your Legit recipie plus all the suspension goodies.

Am I missing something here? Help me understand.

 

there are KEY things i see everyone NOT mention and there is stuff that is a waste of time i see mentioned in every post

ok lets start off at things you NEED

1. Torque converter $700 bucks from Precision industries that is at least 5 tenths in the 1/4 so if you are at 15.8 you are now at 15.3 already

2. Tires, strap some ET Streets on an extra set of wheels. extra wheels for thirdgens are almost give away so no excuses needed.

3. headers - put some hooker long tubes on, gotta make it breath good. emissions are overrated and kill power

you are gonna have a solid 14 second car right then and there. Notice i have not mentioned suspension once? yeah cause unless there is really something wrong with yours, the stock is good to the 10s so don't waste your money

4. scrap the stock heads put on some basic World Product 3-5 Torquers and pop in a small cam like the ZZ3/4 cam. cheap and will work nice

should be on your way to the 13s no problem then.

5. buy the cheapest 3" cat back you can find or just toss a cut out in the stock one...cut outs are 30 bucks and good at the track

with that stuff you should be in the 13s

we are looking at like 700 for the converter, 300 for the tires, headers are no idea but say 400 on the high side, heads are 700, cam is 150, cutout 30. so like 2300 bucks the car will be night and day. with a good converter you don't need gears. if anything swap in a 4th gen rear with the 3.42 from a 6 speed. just have to run 4th gen back spacing wheels then.

its not hard guys. on TPI its even easier

so things to learn from this...suspension is gonna be a waste of money unless you REALLY actually need it, get a damn torque converter a good one that will cost ya 700 bucks, get some tires, you can do all the suspension in the world on the car but Sears weatherhandlers are not gonna hook

remember the KISS anology...Keep It Simple Stupid

if someone in the Indianapolis area has an RS they want to go 13s, i am willing to do most of the labor and parts picking for free

email me at fasta4@hotmail.com

 

the ones I delete before they get out of hand.

 

anyway you can get a LO3 to run 13's is good. i chose the nitrous route becuase simply i didnt want to get all into the motor when i did the install. the farthest i got was an intake by edelbrock and tons of suspension mods to boot with it. so to each their own for how they want to run a 13 in a LO3, i just chose nitrous. i know all of youpeople will slander me when you hear i have swappped over to a carb but i am planning to run some serious ET's this year . only time will tell.and by the way before people slander NJSPEEDER he knows his **** and all after all he was the fastest tbi before anybody else could even break a 16 probably, and he is now again the fastest since i yanked out motors and went with a carb355/N2O combo.



joe

 

After reading this incredibly long thread, I have a horrendous headache. I even went to the motor swap section and read up about a swap with an LT-1 motor.
I don't know what to say except that maybe rethinking about the way it all goes together makes more sense than saying "cam this" or "heads that" or "gears this or that".
Wouldn't it be better to have something that already works? I know it is a question and a challenge to say "My thirdgen can pull 13's."
I don't know. There are a lot of factors involved. I think the best one is having something that works together all around. Is this supposed to be streetable?
LS-1 conversions are even a consideration.
Even so, you get into high performance, you pay for it.
I have invested probably well over $4000 so far and I figure I am about 1/2 done.
The engine is an important factor in this, but you should also remember the transmission, suspension, and rear-end.
The more power you get from that motor, the more you need to do to get the rest of the car to hold itself together!
I really want to finish my car. I am going to. I am working out everything I can to make it a well balanced system.
Don't forget that an engine is nothing more than a huge air pump. It needs to breathe. From intake to exhaust.
The transmission must be strong enough to handle the power generated from that engine.
The driveline components, frame and body must be able to handle the monstrous forces generated from the new powerhouse you put in it.
I went my route because my L03 DIED. I had no choice and I decided to go with a high performance engine.
I still have a lot to work out. I know my car and respect it with it's faults and drawbacks.
Instead of saying "What mods can I do to hit 13's?"; maybe we should reconsider this and ask ourselves what can we do on an existing budget.
Blockhead, are you talking about driving this car on the street?
There are factors involved here. Assuming it is off-road only, it should be easy to do, if you have enough funds! Drop an engine with a monster setup and you're done?
Hardly.
Rip that transmission to shreds, throw out your axles and twist your crossmembers. Hey, it's your car!
Is this car going to be driven on the road?
It might be a consideration here. Nitrous? Look, after putting all that money into your motor, you want to melt it? You are taking that motor and overrevving it tremendously! Expect it to last 1/3 the life than it would without that N20 system in it.
If you are going to drive it on the streets, I think another plan of attack is in order.
I don't know, I guess that's why I have a headache.

 

that is the new combo that will be going to the track in 2 weeks. haven't run it yet. once tuned in it shoudl be capable of 12.8's or maybe a little better.
the old combo that ran 14.20 was a 2000 cpnvertor, edelbrock heads, 3.54 gears(half dead posi), 1.6 roller tips, edelbrock tbi intake, ultimate tbi mods. the suspension at the time was full raod race with the drag tires on it.

later
tim

 

"Really? How would you know? Dont make random assumptions about things you dont know anything about unless you want someone (like me) to disagree with you, because that is what is going to happen, every time."

ok, what did you do with TBI? anything? ever?

"Blah Blah Blah. Its obvious you havent said you have run a 13 second time, but thats not the point. This is the point:
How is that a LEGIT 13 second combo? "

how do i know, because i am the one here with all the time into tbi. just because i didn't do it becasue i spent money making mistakes does not mean i don't know what i am talking about. that is a very unwise assumption as well.

And yet the 'miracle' is yet to happen for you. Must not be so easy if you arent there yet. I dunno what the references to super computers or miracles has to do with this anyway, I never said anything about that. I'm just wondering where the proof of your statement is.

"Maybe its because you call your opinions of what is going to happen fact instead of opinion. Try waiting until AFTERWARDS next time, you might be surprised how things will change. You might also again try not assuming things about people you dont know, it might bite you in the rear."

funny, i get to see what you are calling my opinions come true a lot fo the time when it comes to tbi. because i take the tiem to figure it out and i have been at this stuff for a while.

"I sure hope you are talking about a TBI powered car and not 305's in general. I did that with a peanut cammed car in 1993. Old news."

that is exactly my point. it is old hat, yet you see many of the posts here making it sound like it takes an act of *** to do anythign with a 305.

"I do believe that is read $$$. I'd also like to see some proof of your claim, unless you'd like to tell me the car was gutted to nothing and had a bunch of bolt on stuff and engine mods allowed like different cam profiles and stuff like that. Someone I know quite well was prepping showroom stock cars at the factory in Van Nuys, and he said they were high 12's-low 13's. I really doubt that virtually unlimited factory funds was unable to pick up that much more power."

what on the list looks so expensive? and if your buddy is prepping cars that run low 13's or high 12's now, they aren't doing much to the cars. i see stock 4th gens go low 13's all the time around here.

"Anyway, if you have some actual proof go ahead and show it. Otherwise, stop stating your opinions as fact and you wont get attacked about it anymore."

the proof is coming, some people are smart enough to follow the lead of the experienced guys with tbi, not the doubters who show up right before every season starts. you will be seeing several cars runnign numbers with this combo by the end of the summer.

i seriously want to know why so many guys, not just you chris, feel the need to come into a board to discuss an engine you have little/no time into. saying that people liek me with the time in don't know what we are talking about. what is the deal?
it woudl be best for everybody if you guys just stopped. you are confusing what you think about tbi with what we know about tbi and preventing peopel from getting anywhere. if you don't like my combo, fine, i can live with that. but when one uninformed smacker coems on and starts talking about carbs and someone else comes in and starts with plain old doubt, it is useless. you are preventing the tech that this board is set up for from happening.

later
tim

 

someoen mentioned this before when they said camaroracer1992 was full of it for saying he went 13.20 with nitrous.
in all honesty, there had to be something seriously wrong with that guys set up. a 150 shot only picked him up like 7mph over stock, that is pretty bad. that kind of a shot is worth 10-12mph easy.
your tbi car sounds about average for stock. mine was about a half a tenth slower at about the same mph when stock.

later
tim

 

Petty bickering will be counted as flaming as it does not the benefit the group's greater TBI tech knowledge. It just takes up space. I'd apreciate no more of it. I've already edited out the flaming once. Next time this will just get locked.

 

NJ Speeder,
I'm with you on this as well. With the help of others, especially Jon Prevost; I have been able to build myself into a solid machine.
Like I said I don't have numbers yet on mine, and I don't expect them to be so great until that rear end is finished, but I do want to obtain the Dyno results as soon as I possibly can.
There is more to do on my end. I hope to be finished soon, but will still give progress results.
Still to do:
Headers and Y-Pipe. (I have the stock manifold in there now.)
Rear End Gears: 3:42's + Posi or LSD
This is NOT with an L03 motor. I think I have enough HP. *EG*
Those that know what I have been doing are just as anxious to hear the results as I am!
TBI has come quite a ways, and maybe what I am doing will convince others that it's not as far out of reach as they think now.
Even if I don't obtain that goal, I won't be disappointed. It will still be enough for me, and a ride that still makes people's heads turn and look twice!

http://www.lvfbody.com/whoismember_p...p?MemberID=101

 

It doesnt really take that much to get into the 13's. What you need to have is dedication though. Dedicated to spend money and dedicated to working on your car and actually tearing down the engine. Minor bolt ons just arent going to cut it. If you really want 13s heads, cam and intake are what you need to change and you gotta go with the most available power. Plus you need the suspension on top of that. So you have to be dedicated to droppin $$ into the car and dedicated to actually gettin down and dirty with the car.

 

Thanks, I understand now

Good luck at the track. You're most certainly going to break the 13 barrier this time, but I think my original point still stands: Your 14.2 combo still had heads and a converter on top of your Legit 13s combo list, yet only managed 14.2. Even if it had run a 13 with your drag race suspension, you still had a set of heads for ***'s sake!--That's worth probably 30 hp at least over the same combo w/the oem heads.

You've put together a good setup on that 305. It may just be coming down to the displacement. That same setup on a 355 would have you in the mid 13's no problem even with a road race suspension.

I don't think suspension is that big of a concern around the 13.9 range. Just a set of DRs for a good 60ft would be the biggest concern I would have. LS1s are going 11's all day long with the stock suspension. Yes its going to take a little more HP to hit a 13 w/no suspension mods, but LCA's and related things aren't going to do much for the ET anyway.

I think TBI'ers need to be shooting for around 225 RWHP. If you can get to that point a set of DR's should get you in the ballpark of a 13.9. I just really think you have to do heads on the LO3 to get to 225. Maybe someone can prove me wrong!

 

"how do i know, because i am the one here with all the time into tbi. just because i didn't do it becasue i spent money making mistakes does not mean i don't know what i am talking about. that is a very unwise assumption as well."

This is the whole problem, no proof. You can have all the time you want into it, and claim all the expertise you want to, but without proof your claims mean nothing. Until you realize thats the whole problem here, stuff like this will continue to happen.

As for my friend not doing much to the cars, they did everything they were allowed to under showroom stock rules. They even did a couple things that werent allowed. I'm not going to sit here and argue for him though, not much point. I already know who he is and really dont care if someone thinks he doesnt know what he is doing, I will just laugh.

And as for the little/no time thing, its a 305 right? I've been messing with 305's since 1986. I've had my hand on a couple TBI cars but never attempted to do a whole lot with one, no interest. That shouldnt matter anyway, every post here claims that theres nothing wrong with TBI, and TBI is just as good as TPI and better than carb, so I guess I must have no experience with one right?

Tas, this is important to the TBI board. Seems like everyone here thinks tim is a *** of some sort when it comes to TBI, and are taking his recipie for 13's as gospel. Thats all well and good, if it works. I'm still waiting to see some proof. I'd imagine not many of the people here have the money to follow that list, and then go to the track only to be disappointed. If someone goes to show some real world proof with only those modifications and a timeslip, then make all the claims you want to about it. I think it would be a mistake though to tell everyone that if they do those changes to their car, they will run 13's. To me, on a stock weight car, I dont see it happening. Looks more like a mid-high 14's combo to me, without the swirl port heads.

 

I think we can all agree to disagree an drop the whole matter since NJ speeder will be going to the track next week (beginning of March). You guys can continue after that