142? As in MPH? DAMN!!! Where do I sign up? I want one!

 

gonna divide this up:
1. ok i dont remember who said what but i just wanted to add my say. tbi is not a performance induction method, it can be made to be and there is an aftermarket following, it is more a daily driver induction method. tbi is not junk, but it is not the best candidate for performance either. the problem with it, just like knocking on the 305 motor on these boards, is that people want it to be better than it really is. the majority of people here have 305's, and the majority have tbi, and as long as the majority owns tbi and 305's there will be people who claim tbi/305's are just as good because they do not want to admit to themselves that they do not own the best of whats out there. if tbi was the greatest thing since sliced bread, they would have put it on the IROC's and FORMULAS and what not, but they didnt. I am not saying it cannot be made better or that tbi couldnt perform as well, I am saying GM had a motive in not selecting it as their performance induction method. (btw, i have this same problem in the exhaust forum when bringing up dual exhaust. people try to make it sound like its the worst thing in the world because the majority have single exhaust and dont want to think that our cars are difficult to outfit with the better exhaust system. )

2. also, whoever said holleys are better than edelbrocks, you are right. now have fun tuning and living with its gas mileage for that extra couple ponies. my friends use double pumpers for street and edelbrocks for everyday use. you gotta admit, edelbrocks are simple, reliable and dont suck gas. double pumpers are ridiculous on gas.

this is just the honest opinion from someone who has owned a 305, a carbed 350 and a single exhaust setup soon to be dual. :lala:

 

i gotta make a comment on this..
you'll all probably just glance at it tho..
carb = carb.. controled by cables, vaccumes and screws (more or less)
TBI = carb with an electronic brain that reads sensors, sending info the the carb on what to do when.

now, for myself, i'd go carb (if i wasn't TPI) because i don't have to mess with a computer each time i want to adjust something.. i turn a screw, adjust jets and springs.. all simple, cost effective..
now, on the tbi, i have to go fiddling with the computer each time, which means i have to learn how to code and such.. alot more can go wrong with it.. and it could get costly..
now, i'm guessing that each can flow as much cfm as they want right?.. like 800 or + (i know carbs can, but i don't know about tb's.. the biggest cfm out of a tbi car i've seen is 780 out on a friend's iroc with a 350 done up.. (still slow))
now, as i see it, the tbi will take longer to tune.. a hell of alot more settings in it at different rpms and at differernt vaccume pressures and so forth..
carb, u set the springs for the secondaires to open when and you jet it correctly.. simple.

but TPI is better then either. (talking about something like miniram, or even bigger runners)

you guys should all just lighten up.. you love your car, right?.. good.. all that matters..
and slow stang eater..
chose what you want to do by the end goal.. if you're just wanting a motor that'll get you around.. stick with your tbi cuz u got it.. so it's free, right? why waste money on a carb that won't even be used on your motor next year.. (or thereabouts)..
or you could then take that motor, when you take it out, since it'll be in relitive good shape and put it in your "beater" car.. (cutlass or monte or something).. there you go, another "decent" car.. (this is where the carb comes in, easier engine swap)

and i was... intrigued.... by all this "monitor" fighting..
ya'll should grow up.
(some more then others)

 

Usually I would say where are the moderators? But they're all in this post

I'd comment but I don't have any real info to put out there. Though in looking back into all the performance engines my brother has built, none have been TBI, not to say it's not better I guess, but financially the money involved in running TBI is a lot more than a carb, and that's money that could be spent on other mods.

 

Well I guess they would have done it because they did already have success with TBI on the 2.5/2.8/4.3 prior to Jan. 1/1988. So the story does check out.

Aren't finals coming up? Is that maybe why JP is a angry right now? School is pretty stressful. I know.

The only real good 305 TBI time that I can think of offhand is a 14.2 by NJSPEEDER with Edelbrock centerbolt heads and intake. That's on the stock peanut cam. I'd say that's reasonable, and it has been proven. Bort's run his 13.9 and NJ 14.2 I TBI guess loses.

unknown_host, they did put TBI in IROC's (and Formula's); check the sig.

 

Stop being so blind. You were the one that attached my car and in doing so I couldn't have NOT taken that personally. If you think that is MY problem...you're right, you are my problem! I know you could care less about my feelings or you wouldn't have made the comments you did about my car. My car is a huge investment, I've put countless time and money into it and I don't take lightly to some no-name moderator commenting about my car when he doesn't know jack **** about it! Instead you took the whole "two way street" right out into the open when you talked smack on my car. So who was it that could care less about the other persons feelings?
I'm tired, stressed, and basically filled up to the brim with resentment towards the moderators on this site. You guys have some knack of always thinking you are wiser than the rest.
Oh, before I forget, Ed, you should shut up about other peoples cars when you're cars *** would get bitch slapped by an "almost mature"(max) college kid and his TBI camaro done on a tight *** budget.
Yeah, unintentional, good excuse, how about a formal apoligy instead of this bull**** I get about it being my problem. If you didn't care what I thought and vice versa, I doubt either of us would have replied this much to this thread.
About the e-mails, yeah, I would have liked to keep it that way. Oh, FYI, my e-mail to Ed wasn't the same, I actually included and I quote, "I hope you have a good one and no hard feelings."
Personal attacks, let's see...if I walked up to you and called your thirdgen a POS and I never met you before would you think I was an *******? Maybe you've got a pride issue or some other funk going on. I'm just tired of the smack talk and am demanding a little more respect for MY feelings next time you feel like talking about MY car.
As for TBI costing too much and that extra money going towards other mods and using a carb...ever heard of a happy middle grounds? You've got expensive TPI and MPFI on one side and carbs on the other. TBI is the middle and when, not if, I prove to these SOB's that TBI is just as fast, then I think you'd actually loose money if you kept a carb and owned/drove the car for a year!!! This is why I believe in TBI so much. You get gas milage, save money, and can have equal performance if you know how to work around the simple yet obvious restrictions.
If you needed to know, I've got quizes and midterms until finals week which isn't until mid June. Then I drove 1200 miles this weekend to go home for Englishtown's swap meet only to enter my car into the car show and find out that my buddies 69 camaro blew up a diff. He's now thinking about selling his car and that just about fubars my summer plans. Oh yeah, and I got nasty sun burn at the swap meet and didn't find anything I wanted! Let's not forget that I just started my new job last week and worked over 31 hours from monday to friday AND had 2 big exams so yeah, I'm a little stressed right now and require venting room.

 

Well, not quite ALL of them...

Too bad EDE is working long hours, and B-Karp has been busy, and I haven't been "camping" on the board as usual.

There are a lot of opinions expressed here, along with some emotional responses. It seems that the original intent of the thread was lost quite some time ago. A question was asked about a carburetor selection, and while the discussion along the way had some relevance, it is frought with "heat".

And as for what may have started a personal "tiff" in the past, anyone involved in that needs to work that out amongst themselves. A technical forum may not be the best place to work out personal friction. I enjoy heated debate as much as the next person, and will play "Devil's Advocate" more often than not just to get people to think about the other possibilities in the world. When the fingers get nervous on the flame-thrower triggers, it's time to pull in the reins.

This is MY opinion - we failed the original poster in not directly answering the question.

Also MY opinion - some of us (myself included at times) should visit http://www.dictionary.com and review the definition of the word "moderate". Among its several meanings is;

"To become less violent, severe, or extreme; abate".

Good advice.

This really should have been split into two topics - the original question, and a debate over the merits, detriments, and reasons for the various fuel systems found in general service.

But that's just MY opinion.

 

Vader, we TRIED to quell the storm. Instead of showing us results, they show us insult and opinion. As i said earlier, don't show up to a gunfight with a knife. If nobody is getting TBI to put down great numbers, don't praise it as some great thing. Be open to the fact that some people don't want to sign themselves up for years of head pounding and heart-break.

I never said you can't run TBI, and never said you shouldn't run TBI. Just that if you do you better recognize your limitations and if you want to be a TBI guru, be forward about actual performance, and if you don't have any results, maybe reaching just to be a me-too in an argument is silly.

 

Hey, watch how you use my name, I might just have to swap to carb.
You guys are a RIOT! Why does an induction system have to be a religion?

Some people like TBI,

aaaaaand;

others don't.

 

Ok first off, you were part of the storm; you can't deny it now. Secondly I dont think anyone insulted another member directly.

And we did show you results. You're best running 305 was Bort's 13.9 with exhaust manifolds (I dont even know the system he's running) and our best TBI is NJ's 14.2 with the stock peanut cam. So we lose then.

You keep saying that we didnt show you any proof of times, well we did and it was NJ's. Now when we asked you for times you said Bort's and we accepted it and didnt say that we werent shown proof. Do you not like NJSPEEDER? because I've said his time again and again and you keep saying we dont show results. I dont know, maybe I am missing something.

 

Actually this is the post that started the war it seems.

 

Well, now we all know.

It appears that NTChrist is about right. This isn't a religion, just a preference. Not a lot different than the Chevy/Ford thing, or more like the 305/350 thing. Sure, you can make any of them work, but how much do you want to spend to make it work? We all can admit that a 350 has more potential than a 305, but that doesn't mean a 350 is automatically better. There are a lot of 305s that have "handed it" to 350s. A lot of Fords have been faster than some Chevys. TBI could be faster than TPI or a carb. The topic to too broad to make any sweeping generalisations.

And asking for empirical data to support a position isn't out of line. My favorite saying (well, one of them) is "Without data, all you have is an opinion." A timeslip from a quick 305 running TBI would settle that. Getting that timeslip is a different matter.

However, even though this is an interesting topic, certainly worthy of debate, it did little to address the original question. Poor SlowStangEater is just sitting back, no more help than he had before, probably frustrated, and maybe laughing a little, too. And it isn't that I'm not guilty, too.

I'm thinking that this would make an excellent thread all by itself, and since it doesn't solely fall under TPI, TBI, or CARB , this board would be an excellent place to post it.

Anybody want to start over with a dedicated thread, this time with only some good-natured jabs, not flames? Just make sure that whoever starts it asks a very good question, and asks it correctly. I'll only dump the naughty ones - promise. I've already shown my "Dark Side" opinion... :rockon:

 

I guess you still arent getting it, so... here's the two things I posted when you got ticked and sent me an email calling me an *******:

Lets see... I didnt say a word about you, nor your car.

Here's the other:

Again, I said nothing about you or your car. It was about you saying carbs suck and FI is better in all respects, and I pointed out a place that you can go look to find information to the contrary. I didnt say you were an idiot, call you names, anything like that. I said you were wrong in thinking FI is better in any case and provided one small shred of the tons of proof that is out there in the world. So what its a magazine and you think its BS, every time I see a comparo (magazine or not) between carb and FI, the carb somehow ends up on top when it comes to power useful in a 1/4mi drag car. So, FI is not better in all respects. And somehow I say FI and you infer I mean TBI (which I did not) and proceed to call me even more names. And I am supposed to apologize? Thats a laugh. I tell you what, you go to hell first, you go blow my TPI and tell me that it sucks to MY face and I'll think about leaving you alone. As for the time being, forget it. I've had about enough of your crap.

Grow up Jon.

Oh, and since we are here and things are going so great, lets talk about TBI and NJSpeeder. 14.2@96 right? Being generous on the speed I do believe... Heads, cam, headers, lightened chassis, suspension work, 5-spd... right? And? Thats your best 305, right?
Lets talk about someone on the TPI board. I am leaving the individual nameless simply because I dont want to drag him into this BS. If you really want you can email me and I'll tell you who it is but I am not putting it up here. Anyway, he has a stock shortblock, ported stock heads, cam, headers, and is running the same race weight as NJSpeeder. Oh, and its TPI. And 305. And 5-spd I think. Pretty equal as far as I am concerned. I dont know for sure his MPH, but I think its 108 or 109. He may have a better ET, but I know the car has run 12.9. Tell me, where's the 1.3 seconds? Is it the TBI? Maybe, maybe not. Could be NJ(Tim) cant drive. Could be he isnt as good at making a car fast, but seeing as how he has the fastest 305 TBI car I find that a little hard to believe. Maybe theres a million other things it could be, but you know what? It doesnt look too promising that its something else wrong. And IMO it is something wrong, because 1.3 seconds between two otherwise comparable cars is an awful lot. Unfortunately, NJ (Tim) didnt try to find the problem, if there was one, and we are still left with the 14.2 and 1.3 gap. Maybe it could have been less, but until theres something to the contrary...

And whats this stuff about 'us' not understanding TBI? Do I need to go do a search and find one of the one million posts that says how 'simple' TBI is? And yet every time someone says something bad about TBI, all of a sudden TBI becomes some black orb parked on top of the intake that nobody understands but some TBI nut. Whats so complex? Its a 2-bbl carb with injectors instead of venturis. Theres not a whole lot different about it. Theres air going in, fuel going in... boy, real complex stuff there.

And then theres the issue of me not helping? Well, I tried. You know what I came up against? A group of racists that said I didnt understand their induction system, I was one of 'those guys' and was told off and ignored. And you wonder why I dont help? Catch a clue sometime. I got into a few discussions of what I thought were problem areas and the couple 'experts' I was talking to were insistent that was not a problem. And, they are still slow and dont have a solution to their problems, but havent tried what I said because I 'dont understand TBI.' I guess if you want to be in the dark and ignore advice from anyone who doesnt have your black orb then yea, you arent going to get any sort of advice from those people. Its called digging your own hole and climbing in.

I'm expecting a flame back. Go ahead. Ya'll TBI'ers still have a problem to remedy and ya'll are still ignoring advice from many people (not me either) that have given you good advice and could help ya but youre ignoring it.

 

madmax, you started all this hell every since I posted a simple question about getting my car into the low 12's.
Let me quote you AGAIN if I must, "Build yourself a nice 400, with a cam in the 240 range, .600 lift, something like that. Use some decent heads like AFR's, trickflows, whatever floats your boat, use a Weiand Team G manifold, run a dominator on top of that, MSD distributor, and just so you can say you kept your TBI, mount it on the dash right in the middle."
You are a ******** and if you can't see it maybe you should open your 'one eye' and get off my case. Stop talking about your feelings when all you do is talk trash about everyone that doesn't have a carb or tpi.
If you want I can quote your hundreds of flame starting comments by doing a simple search in all open forums for tbi and madmax! That's how bad it is and you need to know when enough is enough.

 

On hold.

 

Hi everyone!

First i want to correct one thing.. perhaps NJ will post himself but his car did not have an aftermarket cam when he ran a 14.2, he was running the peanut cam with the edelbrock tbi intake, edelbrock heads, and a 700r4 with i believe a 2500 stall converter. Im not sure about the other things, but find me another peanut cammed car that is NA running a MPH like that, tbi, tpi, or carb.. I think it may have been done but I dont recall anyone doing it off the top of my head. Doesnt matter though everyone here has put too much of their pride on the line to ever concede on anything.


Ive run them all, modded them all
im running a carb right now.. learned alot

gonna help when i bolt the tbi back on

 

i think more of the people that are getting upset here need to read ed's first line, not the word unfairly.
now we can all sit here and babble on endlessly about tbi vs tpi vs carb. they all have stregths and weaknesses.
the big bag on tbi right now is that until very recently there have been few, if any attempts to put together power hungry combos with a full set up. before the last year or so the most you woudl hear about anyone really having in teh engine was an intake and maybe a holley TB. a few people had tried cams or heads or any of the other parts swaps that can be doen to any small block and it was only recently that a few TBI guys really got into teh chip thing, and we all know that can be a major stumbling block in any efi system.
right now as it stands we have many combos that are vary fast on paper that look damn similar to combos that have been used on carbed cars, 305's in particular. upgraded heads, mild cam, good intake, and a larger throttle body is wht it takes to go real fast, but real fast only happens once a chip is done with any computer controlled system.
i know i have already heard about hwo so many people thought my tbi was bad just because i had heads/intake/1.6 rockers, very few of the people who bagged on me noted that i had a stock chip still, that means teh fuel curve was a mess and the car was completely running out of timing(you could actually feel teh thing pulling less and less past 3500rpm). was the motor capable of a 13, the mechanical parts definately were, it was teh electronics that were lacking.
this summer there are several locals who are plannign to work on documenting what tbi can do and what gains will be attained from which mods. the development looks bad in so many people's eyes partially because this has not been done before. we plan to show what everything from a full build up 305 can do, what certain crate motors can do, what can be doen with stock parts, and what mild and cost effective mods will do.
my only advice to the skeptics woudl be to watch teh tbi board for developments. we plan to post our results with corrected et/mph's and tech articles abotu how to do as many of the mods as possible. as teh posts are made please read and learn what you can from them, maybe your opinion of tbi will change, maybe it won't, i am not so much concerned with that as i am concerned with making more precise information about tbi available. if you have any comments that may help they are always welcoem on teh tbi board, but if you intend to bag or start fires pleasse keep it to yourself, any fire fights that break out will be deleted and anyone who persists will be reported to admin.

later
tim

 

you are close pablo, i had a 2000 stall when i ran the 14.2, i got a 2800 stall and spun teh tires on teh first run with it and bombed the rear with the second run on it. that was the end of my racing budget for last year since i had already bombed the tranny teh 3rd week of the season.
i have not been to teh track with the new combo yet, everytime i have had a chance to go it has rained or soemthing on my car has gone nutty. right now my biggest prob is that itfailed emissions miserably, i guess a cam, heads, intake, bigger tb, and full exhaust may be a bit much for a stock computer chip...lol

later
tim

 

i think ed is refering more to a series of results. we have a few pockets of good results, but none of us have really gone through a build up process or taken teh tiem to document what different guys have gained from different mods.
tbi is commonly misunderstood very much because of this point, lots of guys think that just having intakes/tb's/heads/cams available on the market means that it shoudl be easier, well when no one has gone through and matched the stuff up or burned a chip to get maximum performance it is all guess work and physics equations.
first thing i woudl like to see from teh tbi guys is to have everyone calm down a bit. although some of the guys here can be blindly ignorant, in my time on this board i know that ed is vary capable of being realistic and i know once we have better documentation he will move tbi off of the questionable performance list in his mind.

later
tim

 

NJ SPEEDER .. i'd like to congradulate you on your level headedness..
need more people like you on these bords..
although i've found Ed to be quite alright and well.. yeah.. like he said.. where's the proof of a N/A TBI motor runnin low 13's or 12's... ?
i dunno..
but not having any documentation on combo's or "proven" chips and such..

the pionners of TBI..
every pionner got prosecuted or flamed or thrown garbage at.. just keep on going and prove everybody wrong.. it'll make it that much better in the end..
i see where you guys are comming from, i got a friend running tbi on a ~400 hp 355... people keep askin' him why he keeps that thing on there and not go carb..
neways..

 

ahhh... Thanks NJ for those posts. Those were refreshing like a glass of ice cold brew on a hot summer day.


I think you summed up nicely a point ive tried to make in the past.. and that is, plain and simple, things have not been done with tbi. If there was a tried and true method like the 10 or 15 combos everyone runs with TPI it would be easier.. but find a standard set of mods for TBI beyond just the very minor. You wont, not enough interest.. everyone goes their own way with it. Might always be that way. Maybe ill get that WB o2 and figure out mine once and all

 

Here's a good post for everyone to check out:

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=102794

It's Jester's biased ignorance that brings up conflicts like in this thread and the other thread titled "305" down the page a bit.

 

well, here it is kids. over teh course fo the summer a few of us on hte east coast are gonna try to put together as much info as we can find to tryto prove what we believe tbi is capable of.
check it out: https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=104411
things will really get moving for us in mid june when jprevost(my partner in tbi crime) gets home form college.

later
tim

 

Oh really? I was actually waiting for someone to bring up Jester's name... amazing it took so long. Let me school you a little since you dont get it:

It takes 2 people to have an argument. If one person is having an argument, chances are they are either committed or close to it.

You just started ANOTHER conflict by bringing up a name of someone who hasnt replied to this or been brought up here until now, even though I know he has read it. I'm sure he will reply now. Know what that makes you?

Part of the problem.

I guess its more than 'biased ignorance' on parts of other people that cause things like this, its ignorance of how people relate to one another as well.

 

I was hoping earlier that Jester would reply because he would give us a view on carbs (because I've seen his posts, he would die for carb).

You know why I mentioned his name? Maybe because I was a bit disconcerted by his comment: EFI SUCKS. It doesn't really matter how many smiley faces he puts after it, it's still an inciter comment.

It does take two people to make an arguement. It takes more than one person to start a war (ie: this thread). I don't see how one person can have an arguement. Well maybe if you're insane and schizophrenic.

Gee I think I have been part of the problem from the start in your eyes because I don't have the same intake system as you and I dont have any timeslips for my TBI car (got a few for a carbed Nova, want me to post them?). I'm not really too concerned that I brought up his name if he made such a comment. It's at his discretion to reply to this post anyway and not because you said: "I'm sure he will reply now." I could have left his name out of my reply, but I'm sure the people who read the link will see the name "Jester".

Yeah it sure is funny how ignorance of how people relate to one another causes things like this. I sure like you're location, I'm sure that's going to make the religous members happy and TBI owners even happier.

And you know what makes you replying to my post?

Part of the problem.

This thread was getting pushed farther and farther from the top and you had to resurrect it.

And while I am at it, I've found many members on other message boards who used to frequent this board and I've talked quite deeply with two previous prominent members (until there departure of course). Do you know what they all have in common? They all have 305s. And do you know what they all say to me?:

"No one believed I was running such good times with my 305. The 350 guys ragged on me again and again until I decided to leave, and I don't regret leaving." One of them even mentioned you and Mr. Maher as a major problem but I'm not going to post his name so this new type of "relation ignorance" doesn't arise. If you really want to know who he is, email me.

 

Yeah of course I'm biased. Been there, done that, had one, and seen hundreds of TBI owners pulling sadly sub-par times. Call me silly but after awhile ya kinda sorta get the idea in your head that maybe it just sucks.

Bench race all ya want. TBI doesn't have that "but it's never been tried value" so many of you seen to think is the reason everyone has something against it. It has been tried. Over, and over, and over again. Know why no one seems to have heard all about it like you do with other systems? Because no ones results are worth bragging about. It's not like TBI is a new untried concept. It's been around for longer than some of you have been alive. And still.....even as you sit here arguing you have not one example of a TBI car that ran respectable numbers. If that doesn't get the point across to y'all...nothing will.

 

The difference is, I never said I wasnt adding to this. However, like you inferred in your post, you said you werent. Thats the difference between me and you, I'm aware of my actions. All your post was is a 'biased ignorance' comment with intent to create more 'conflict'. I never once said I was trying to avoid conflict, if I was I wouldnt be here and would not have replied. You figured you'd stir the pot and I am just obliging your request. By replying, you are just extending the problem. Seems like you are no better than Jester to me, while he is over there on the carb board spreading 'biased ignorance' about fuel injection and creating conflict, you are over here in denial that someone sees you trying to spread some biased ignorance of your own, and feel a need to try and make your actions seem justified.

I have this problem with doing as requested sometimes, I just have to shove things back at people when they are trying to act like they are special and not acting like the people they are complaining about.

I also dont understand your 'defense' in this statement:
"This thread was getting pushed farther and farther from the top and you had to resurrect it"

When you in fact admitted you were intentionally bringing this post from the dead, or trying...
"I was hoping earlier that Jester would reply"

Or am I misunderstanding reading his name and calling him ignorant was not an attempt to do so?

 

Looks like I'm not done yet either. Who here is saying that I have a problem with you because of what your throttle plates are attached to? Things like this are not an issue until someone TRIES to make an issue out of it. For the record, I dont care what you run. Do I like TBI? No. Have I owned a TBI car? Yes. In fact theres one sitting out in the driveway right now. Am I going to swap that TBI off? What in the world for? Would I choose a TBI for my performance car? LOL, no! I'd have a hard time picking a carb too if I already had a multi-port EFI system sitting there. So now my opinion and suggestions of polishing up the TBI and setting it on the dash mean I have a bias towards you?

Let me ask you, is your car red? Lets assume it is.
I hate red cars. I must hate you too.

Wait, I own a red car. I must hate myself too.

Stupid logic annoys me. Maybe you should stop trying to make illogical arguments sound logical.

BTW, someone else was nice enough to call me the name in my location. It wasnt my idea. I just took it and ran, and I have no problem with it.

I'd like to add while this post has been informative, then emotional, then kinda out of hand, then rediculous, then pathetic, and really now just plain hilarious... and then I had my fun since everyone wanted to leave this open (why?) I think I am done here. Points made, points taken.

Dont get your panties in a bunch, keep the car pointed straight down the road, and have a beer on me. Its FRIDAY!!!!

Tomorrow is the Vigilante swap day!

Dont have too much fun without me, ok?

 

The keyword in my statement was "earlier". I wished that he would enter the post earlier when we actually had a discussion (somewhat).

Man talk about stirring the pot. I made one comment "biased ignorance" and you play it out like I shot the president. Wow. Jester has even come on here and made his comment without starting any flame wars ( :hail: Jester) like a true representitive of this site. Doesn't change his opinion on FI, doesn't really change mine on carbs, but he avoided conflict. (Kudos to NJSPEEDER also.)

Defence? Is this what posting on this site is all about? Defending one another's opinions? I didnt think I was a lawyer of the courts.

I'm started to see method in JP's madness: "I'm tired, stressed, and basically filled up to the brim with resentment towards the moderators on this site. You guys have some knack of always thinking you are wiser than the rest."

^Take that last sentence to heart. There have been threads before in the problems forum about this. The moderators are the representitives for this site, they are the ones that looked up upon. Even if you dont like (or think you're) being a "role model"; you're kinda stuck with that title along with moderator.

So you're aware of your actions? Really? Were you aware of your actions when you told JPrevost to jump off a building? You may be aware of your actions but you dont really seem in touch with reality. People aren't going to agree with other people about everything. That's life.

Ah fabrication is the most illustrious form of replying. Thank you madmax for your vermiculated reply about my denial and my rectified justifications. Yes denial, I am in a deep fissure of denial. Also I enjoy long walks on the beach, for verification of proper justification.

Hey I have an idea, lets end this post and start a new one entitled:
"Whats better for my 305, Edelbrock or Holley carb?"

 

Sorry for the additional reply. I just happened to refresh.

Anyway, to answer your question, yes. It came right after he nicely told me to "**** off or go to hell". That was about a day after he sent me an email calling me an ***hole. Is that being aware of my actions enough for you? Not that it matters much to me what you think, I happen to know myself fine and what I say and what its going to do, and if you are like most people your opinion is already formed and set in stone based upon just enough knowledge and facts about me to get you into trouble.

Like I said, I have a problem in doing what people ask me to. I also have no problem returning fire, although many times I refrain.

Anyways, I have beer in hand and am gonna go catch a flick. Have a drink on me (if drinking is your thing).

 

Oh man now I'm not done either. It came across that way. I've fabricated my own theory that you were 'on the other side' because you said: "For all you TBI guys getting your panties in a bunch, sorry but this isnt a bash its a representation of facts." It just hit the wrong note.

Just for the record, I work with a TBI car and work with two carb cars (non-CC Q and Edelbrock(currently)) and I never once praised TBI as being the almightly lord (go ahead check my posts, I dont think I ever did) although I did say that it isnt the TBI isnt the problem, it's whats underneath it. I was just standing up for the system in general. Ever see the little kid getting picked on by bullies? Do you jump in and save him? I usually do (except when there is more than one bully and they're all bigger than me).

My car is red; but I already knew you hated me.

This post was fun, and we're still enemies but do you think we could come to a general concensus and end this silliness?

It's friday night and my friends are calling. I can't stay on this board any longer; the beer's waiting. So good night to all of you carb guys, TPI and TBI guys or whatever else you guys might be using.

Tomorrow it's a distributor swap day for me.

 

Done. Points taken. Thanks for the drink (3,2,1 and binge) I'm outty.

 

What was this guy's great times? I'm sure someone else here is probably running the same or faster. Once again, everybody misses the part that i myself am sticking with a stock 305 just to show what can be done with it. That does not mean a 305 is a viable option once you are into rebuild time if you are trying to go fast. And fast to me means you will have no problem waxing a 2002 Z28 that some 16yo just had handed to him by his parents. Yes a 305 could be built to that level, but building a 350 to do it is cheaper and easier. I don't see where the debate over that last fact is. If you want to build a 305 to run 12s, more power to you, and it has been done NA. But don't advocate it as some kind of general solution, you're just going to lead alot of readers into frustration.

I think the 'problem' a lot of us moderators have is you guys have no idea where we are coming from. Most of us moderators have been at this site longer than this site existed. We've seen and heard practically anything you can think of at least once.So if we seem autocratic in a thread, it isn't just because we like being *******s, it's because we have seen it 1000x and are trying to immediately bring the argument to it's natural conclusion. Naturally TBI guys all start freaking out when we say that noone has made a TBI work yet, but they forget that we're not guessing, we know it's a fact. As for the 305, i'm sure all of us know people with 305s that have run sick sick times, even personally. The argument is still that it is significantly cheaper and easier to build the 350, which is sound advice for the hundreds of people who will read the thread. If you're don't know what you are doing, throwing money at a 305 is just a bad idea.

But people read whatever they want to into a thread. If they see something negative about what they have, they just fly off the handle without even trying to understand what we are explaining. And if you;re not open to learning and having a civilized discussion (where you try to understand the other's POV before you retort) , you're just wasting everybody's time.

 

Well, I hope everyone is feeling better now. Since all the opinions have been aired, and everyone has been invited to visit every possible venue and perform every conceivable act upon themselves, there should be little more to say.

I vote that we take the advice somewhat outlined by Ed, and let someone produce measurable results on a level playing field. I think we can leave that in the capable hands of NJSpeeder and his posse. I'm eager to see what he (they) can produce with a concerted effort to make TBI a viable fuel delivery system. For me, the jury is still out.

I would, however, like to get an accounting of just what is is like to @#$%^% oneself in $%#@. I'll bet that someone as twizted and wretched as me might actually enjoy it. I DO have that Dark Side, you know....

 

Vader, this thread has been making me laugh for days now and all, but can you please for the love of jehovah close it. We're just talking in circles now, and the humour of repeating myself is wearing off. The TBI guys have realized what they need to, and us 'haters' have more than exhausted our arguments as well....

 

He was running consistant high 13's on stock TPI intake and heads.

Definitely close it. This thread has opened new windows of how we relate to each other.

I think we can all agree that the lesson has been learned.

 

My conclusion to this thread is this:
We all disagree. Simple as that. Even if results were posted, nobody would believe it, because it is the "internet" and people will say anything.
Even someone with viable results. That is why I have thought about all this, and have said I will do what I am going to do.
Will anyone believe the result that I come up with?
That is what makes me wonder if it's even worthwhile. It is to me, yes, because I do want to know what my new engine is doing. Do I expect great results from what I have done? I have so far, but I still have some way to go.
As with everyone on this site, we can only benefit from one another if we stop being so hateful.
There really isn't a reason for it. The people that have TBI systems are making good progress, and yes, it's not an easy road. This place is an invaluable source of information, but please, don't bash on any fuel system. They all have their good points.
Opening cans of worms over what fuel system is the best is another thing. They all have advantages. I would say it is more an application sort of thing, and what you have to begin with.
The extremes are people changing the entire engines.
The original factory engines and fuel systems that existed then, and what is being done on the aftermarket now, are making all the systems upgradeable.
What we do is right here! My car IS an experiment in TBI. After a year, it is far from complete!
What we can do is relax and see what the future holds.

 

this is getting awfully damn silly at this point.
if any of you guys who want to argue either side of the tbi thing woudl liek to look at the thread that has been started on teh tbi board then we may be able to see the end of all this stuff. a few of us who run tbi are plannign to try to put together the info we can, all the tech, all teh cheap mods, and as many combos as we can get tech on.
the final answer will not be instant, this will take at least teh whoel summer to complete, even with us working together.
so everyoen stop the petty arguing and let teh info be collected. if there is a moderator for this board reading this, please just lock this thread. it is tiring to have to see teh same old people spend time slamming each other over a simple difference of opinion on what induction system is best.

later
tim

 

Thats it.....

<h1><marquee>FREEEEEEE POSSSSSTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</marquee></h1>

 

Uh Oh...

 

Dammit. I was going to report this post to a moderator, but I couldn't figure out which one to send it to!

 

Someone should close this thread, it's like a virus, you can't kill it and it's DESTROYING US ALL!

 

Noone wanted to start a more appropriate thread on the topic, and it's too bad because there are a lot of good points here.

But you asked, so, O.K....